Great South Run

Im just a bit worried that I may have over trained. My Heart Rate is all at sea, and Im not sure if its the weather, or whether its over training, or me recovering from an ugly bite from a mozzie. My HR is too hig. What should I do between now and next Sunday. Im hoping for 1.35 next week. I will be running with a HR monitor, and was aiming to 85% for the race itself. Any advice??

Comments

  • Alison -

    don't panic, relax and take plenty of rest and by the weekend you'll be raring to go without a doubt. a few nice, gentle runs to keep you loose and a session where you include some strides to keep you sharp and remind you that you can indeed run really fast (1.35 is a great time, and I'm sure you'll manage it).

    be confident in yourself, you've done the training and you know you can do it - so if the HRM is making you anxious, just throw the thing in the drawer and run a great race under your own steam. you may well find you run much faster than you thought you could if you're not relying on that thing on your wrist, but instead you're listening to your body every step of the way. best of luck. s.
  • Thanks, Archilles, I needed a lot of empathy and reassurance that things will be OK. Im going to take it easy like you say, but its so tempting just to go out and have a good blast. And I think I may dump the monitor for the race if things stay the same.

    By the way Im not a brilliant runner, the Gt South is a 10 miler, but the rules are just the same for us smily back packers arent they.

    Why are you called Archilles??
  • Alison -

    everyone's a brilliant runner who can race ten miles, go for it! and avoid the temptation to have a good blast - research shows that any training you do between now and then won't have time to have any effect, so a few short runs with occasional very short bursts of speed to pep you up are all you need.

    A bit pretentious I know, but Achilles is described in Homer's Iliad as being "fleet of foot" which is how I see myself on good days - there's other days when the medical Achilles reference is a it more to the point! ;-)
  • Im impressed!!!! My name obviously is my name, I must get a little imaginative, but then Ive got to work how to change my nickname on this blinkin' programme. Thanks again for the advice, I will rest and then let you know (if this thread is still in existance next week!!)
  • There is a few of us (about a dozen) running next week so look out on the 'events forum' for the GSR thread.

    Blue Knees normally knows the numbers and anticipated times of all forum runners, so meet up and have a blast, there will probably be a couple of people roughly in your time bracket.

    BTW 1.35 is a mean time for a ten miler, for every 1 person I know who can run that time I know 25 others who cant run 2 miles....

    no.4473 blue /yellow URWFRC vest
  • Well hallo. I think my number is 1942, which might as well be the year I was born in the probs I ve been having lately. Ive decided to do my best (what more could you ask), go out at a controlled pace and then if the HR monitor tells me something I dont want to see then I will ignore it. Sounds like good advise to me. Will look out for you, and to you, Archilles (Im sorry I have a vision of you with Blond locks and a gladiator costume, but I expect you are not like that in real Life.)
    Will look for the GSR thread!!!
  • Hi Aliso. I have just joined this forum so it is my first activity. I have specialized in Coaching Women for the past 30 years from Club runners to National Champions.

    I am quite concerned that you were going to set off at 85% of Max HR ( I assume that is what you meant by your remark?) That is really to high as you would almost certainly be starting off within your Anaerobic Zone when of course it is advisable to be in your Aerobic Zone , say about 75%

    With HR drift you would have reach your danger zone , usualy around the 92% mark to soon and would have got into Oxygen dept and had to struggle near the end.

    Obviously there are many other factors involved but the above would be a good guide line without knowing more about you.ie age and what you have done in training etc.

    Maybe you have overtrained by using wrong HR Zones etc. But there is not much you can do about that right now. The advise you have been given would seem ok. Certainly you should not be doing much now leading up to the event.

    Here is a good session to do on Thursday.

    20 x 30secs at your mile pace,with 60secs very slow jog between. This will not tire you and in fact should create a feel good factor.

    Good Luck. Ron.
  • Hi Alison. If you do read this before Sunday and you are still concerned about your Heart Rates and possible overtraining here is a very simple test you can do.

    As you lay in bed in the morning measure your HR ( or take your pulse )make a note of what it is, get up and walk slowly around for 15 seconds measure HR ( or pulse )and providing it has not gone up by more than 15 beats per minute it would suggest everything is ok. If it is more than it would suggest your body is trying to recover from something which could include overtraining.

    You can do this test anywhen although when you get up is best. But if you forget to do it than do this:
    Stop what ever you are doing and rest by laying down for 15 minutes at the end of which you record your HR ( or pulse ). Then get up walk slowly for 15 seconds and test again. If you are within the 15 beats rise you are ok.

    This is easy to remember as it is all 15 and hence refered to as the 15 HR test.

    If you want to know more about HR training or what causes overtraining or why it is called that etc please feel free to E'Mail me.

    Good Luck for Sunday, Ron.

    www.rong@runningcoach.freeserve.co.uk
  • Hello Ron

    Welcome to the forum and it's great to know you're an experienced coach as well - as you've no doubt noticed HR is frequently at the top of the debating list.

    Alison, just to say I've overtrained from time to time and a couple of days rest makes a huge difference. I'm sure you'll be fine on Sunday. As far as racing HR is concerned I think that depends on your experience and current fitness. I would expect to run a 10 mile race in the anaerobic zone. I'm not necessarily recommending this for you, but just to show there is a range of strategies that can be appropriate, I ran my first 10 mile race a month ago and my av HR worked out at 94% of max, or slightly lower as Working Heart rate (it was a hot day).Forgive me if I'm repeating what you already know: WHR also uses your current resting HR to calculate your training zones.
    Best of luck on Sunday.
  • Alison your details are now on the Events - Great South Run thread along with the other club runners. See you there
  • Hallo Ron, and thank you for such a wonderful response. The reason why I felt I had to go off at 85% was that the Runners World guides all seem to say the you do it at 85%. Mind you the John Parker Book says 80% for a half and 85% for a 10K. Whats best Im getting very confused!!! I certainly like the idea of doing the quick sprints, Ive just come in from a sloooooooooooow run and am mighty hacked off as I just want to go out and run run run!!! I will try both of your recomendations. I also note you have put an e-mail address on which I will keep if that is OK with you, although I dont even class myself as a club runner Im afraid!!!

    Laura, thank you too, after I read Rons message I thoguht oh my god Ive been doing it ALL wrong!!! Both your and Rons messages have given me a lot of food for thoguht and I will consider what you have both said. Laura, when you did your 92% did you start off at 92% or did it wiggle its way up??? And also what time did you do, so that I can at least try to compare how it might affect me?? Ron I would like your thoughts on this 85% business, esp if Runners World are giving advice out (or maybe I have misunderstood their guidelines.) Finally when I calculate my WHR, I take into account my resting rate, so I use the formulae MHR-WHR x 85%. Thank you both for helping me out on this, I am feeling happier that I can be confidant for Sunday. Mind you dont they say that a little too much information is dangerous??
  • Hi Alison. When I joined the Running Magazine Forums I really had no intention to get involved with training and coaching problems. My reason was to do with making videos for training and coaching female athletes and I was going to ask if anyone was interested in being involved with a couple of projects I will soon be starting.
    I still intend to do this but after browsing through some of the forums I could not really but respond, because many of the questions and pleas for help are very close to my specialization. Your situation of being confused over Heart Rate % and training and racing zones for instance is sadly very common and it is so important to get it right.

    Let me give an example as to why it is confusing.

    You mention what Runners World say about it. So I look at the section on this site that says . Heart-rate monitoring in simple English. Well to be honest I feel that they have only confused the issue.
    Sean Fishpool who I assume has written this with the backing of Runners World says:
    Dont fall foul of a common misconception.
    He is refering to MaxHR and training zones.
    He points out that the Working HR must be used when making calculation.

    Sorry Sean but this is not the best way to put it accross to a general reading public. Almost all publications and articles written about HR zones etc refer to the straight forward way of calculation ie maxHR x % you are aiming for.

    They have to do this because HR on its own means very little. To really make use of this connections have to be made to calculations, graphs and charts for Lactic Acid and Oxygen consumption. ( there are others ) These are often superimposed and have to use common guidelines and these will always be the simple straight forward methods and not the one including Working HR range or as it is usually called HR Reserve.
    Sorry at this point I have got to finish as the message is to long to post?? Will try to send part 2 later. Ron

  • Hi Alison sorry about this I did not realise that messages were restricted in length?

    So here is part 2

    The method that Sean uses is known as the
    KARVONEN FORMULA. which comes from the American College of Sports Medicine. One of the reason it was produced is because in those days the main method to calculate maxHR was 220-your age. Although a reasonable guideline it has its faults and is unreliable when trying to establish training zones. You must remember that HR Monitors are a relatively new invention, we used to work things out with pulse meters.

    Reserch found that resting HR had a great deal to do with fitness levels and obviously resting HR or Pulse Rate is easy to establish and so it was included into the formula and so the HR reserve came into it. Some,including Sean refer to this as Working HR.

    This method has its use but I would only ever use it on a one to one bases with people I coach. As I need to not only use HR but the Lactate and Oxygen Consumption and even Energy requirements related to producing the best performance possible, it is unrealistic to use any other method than the basic way of refering to HR zones ie maxHR x % needed.as this is what will be found in the vast majority of reference material on the subject.

    So Alison this may well be the reason why, as you say,get confused over what %of HR to use and I am sure so are many other people on these forums.

    Let me give you an actual example for a women I coached.

    maxHR - 184 resting HR - 52

    I needed her to train at 80% and 90% of max

    ie 147 and 165. These especially the 90% were critical for what we were trying to achieve at the time. I did not want her to reach the 92% where her Lactate levels would quickly rise ( as would most runners at this % )

    If I had used the Karvonen formula ( Seans method ) the HR would have worked out at 85% and 93% ie HR of 157 and 171 which would have been ouside the training reference zones needed. The 93% especialy would have been very negative.

    This women won the National 10 mile Championship as part of the Great South Run.

    Well Alison I am sorry for going on about this subject and using your original posting to put accross these points,but I really feel they need to be said and in doing so help what clearly seems to be a confusing subject when it need not be.

    All the best once again.Ron.

  • Ron -

    you seem to be saying that HRM's can only be used adequately under expert supervision - is this what you mean?

    Alison -

    bad luck - and you just wanted some encouragement for Sunday!!!!! well good luck anyway, and most of all don't be anxious, and if your HRM and your MHR and your WHR are making you anxious, just ignore them and have a great run! using an HRM for racing can be a dodgy business until you get used to it, because you're working at a much higher rate than you're used to training in. Plus there are other factors that come into play such as race day adrenaline which sends your starting heart rate soaring until you've settled down. And don't forget your HRM might not actually work accurately under race conditions where you're running alongside a host of other people also wearing HRM's which can throw yours completely out of line. So wear it if it's going to give you confidence, but don't rely on it - quite apart from anything else, you'll enjoy the race a whole lot more if you're not obsessing about that thing on your wrist.

    I'll shut up now - but it does worry me the number of runners on this forum who get more heartache and discouragement than pleasure out of their running because they are convinced they should be relying on science and technology every inch of the way.
  • Hi Achilles. No I am not saying that. Their use is realy quite simple to understand and get benefit from. What I am getting at is that it is often the media that can cause confussion, but obviously if you can have the support of proven experience it must help.

    I actualy agree with much of what you say and the advice you have passed onto Alison is very sound from a praticle down to earth point of view. Especially the one about using a HR Monitor that will pick up other HR Monitor signals. In the Great South or any event with large fields unless you have a HR Monitor that you can programme only to pick up your own signals they are almost not worth using.

    Incidently I have worked on a Training Method I call RPDL ever since the late 1950's while doing National Service.( I had the time and budgets to do it there ) I have developed it ever since and always use it as my main method to develop my athletes.

    Guess what, the whole purpose is to bye-pass all the sports science etc and present methods every bit as good as what they aim at but without all the media hype that sadly goes with it. ( sports science is always trying to disprove a theory as much as bringing in new ones, usualy ending in saying , more research is needed!! )However to be able to do what I do I have to keep up to date with sports science so I can present it to my athletes in a way that is productive.

    RPDL stands for Running Pace Distance Limitation, simple is'nt it. It sums up everything needed for improvement.

    Well thats it.

    Sorry once again for using your question again. Incidently I have made reference to your question in my own posting about Heart Rates and the Sean Fishpool article.

    All the best Ron.
  • Whoops!! I didnt intend to cause such a hoo-haa!!! Im sorry if this subject has got a little emotive. But havinf said that I have got a tremendous amount of info, which I intend to read, and then make a decision about. One thing I noticed wasa that I was getting all uptight about what I should and should not be doing, when at the end of the day I am lucky to have such a passion on running, and that I am able to just run when I want.

    Im now going to enjoy the 10 miles on Sunday. I did the training session you suggested, Ron, and it worked a treat, maybe I was just getting all tensed up about stuff. Thank you.

    And thank you, Archilles, for your response too.

    Finally ,Ron, I would like to thank you for the time and effort you put into all this. As you said, you werent intending to get involved in training problems, I unintetnionally dragged you into it. Please accept my apologies.
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