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Horwill states:
“(Stillman) fixes the non-active man's average weight for height with a simple formula. He allocates 110lbs (56.2kg) for the first five feet (1.524m) in height and 5 1/2lbs (2.296kg) for every inch (0.025m) thereafter. He is harsher with women, giving them 100lbs (45.3kg) for the first five feet and 5lbs (2.268kg) for every inch above this.
Having established the average, he then speculates on the ideal weight for athletic performance, as follows:
Numbers look as follows (height - non-active weight - sprinters - hurdlers - middle distance - long distance):
Women
Men
Having looked at these, I've realised that my earlier calculation was incorrect and that at 5'8" and aiming at long distance (15% below non-active weight), Stillman suggests 130.9 lb, or 9st 5lb, which is more or less exactly what I weigh at the moment.
I look thin at the non active weight he gives -5'8" and 140lbs these days -last time i was that light people thought i was ill ! I think selecting the starting weight is a bit of an inexact science
My experience of it in running terms is that as a 19yo i could run reasonably at a skinny 130lbs and was told by a coach to get down to 8'st 10 where i looked positively skeletal - much less healthy than Paula R at the same height and with much less toned muscle even though she is reporrtedly around 8st7
these days i weigh considerably more and have struggled to get my speed to anything like those youthful times -in fact i am twice as slow (but dont weight twice as much !)
isnt it really about managing a very difficult balance between maintaining enough energy to do the right training (food intake) whilst reducing that intake enough to lose the excess body fat as opposed to essential muscle and not becoming unwell or compromising quality and quantity of training
but also being able to maintain enough of the right quality and quantity of training that creates the perfect metabolic and energy balance to run well enough at these optimum weights
I bet Paula R et al all know exactly how many calories they expend and need but also pay an awful lot of attention to they are eating to keep the balance absolutely right
Surely the point we should or could, be taking from all this is not so much to aim for a particular weight, as, for most of us at least, to take the point that we could run a lot faster off the same training if we were at lot lighter, even if we don't achieve or aspire to achieve the low weight of our heroes.
When I sarted running I found I lost weight. I didn't start running with that in mind, but I was very overweight. By the end of 2004 I had lost 3 1/2 stone in weight and at 5ft 10" I weighed 9st 7lbs. This for me was too thin. I had no breasts to speak of, they shrivelled up into the most unpleasant fried eggs. I had not much of a waist either. But I had got into very regimented eating habits and I was really really strict with myself to the point of being almost obsessive.
As I progressed on with running I found I got lots of viruses, colds, flu, one after the other. Evenutally I started to put the weight back on and now I hardly ever get ill.
I now weigh 10st 10lbs. Ideally I'd like to be 10st, but I know I don't look overweight at all for my height and I'm a nice size 12 now rather than the 8/10 I went down to.
But I am slower now than I was. I think as Buney says if you do go down to optimum running weight you need to be really really careful that you are eating the right things to be healthy, which is what I wasn't doing.
But that weight chart suggests I could go to 9st 1 1/2 lbs. There is no way I would want to be that thin. Even if it did mean I would run much faster. I got enough comments about looking underweight at 9st 7lbs. And looking back I don't think I looked very healthy at that weight either.
".....what should be our ideal weight. For health or for a race pb?" - do you think that ideal weight for a race PB means that you are unhealthy?
Popsider,
"....losing a shed load of weight is likely to make you far faster than doing intervals" - totally agree. I think it's more or less all down to power-to-weight ratio.
"....think one problem with the UK is that we are such a fat society that people at the lean end of healthy are seen as being overly skinny" - again, totally agree.
"Maybe the Horwill formula is working more for men than women" - certainly seems that way.
Nam,
"It' not worth it." - fair enough.
M,
"....fastest weight may not be healthiest weight" - interested to hear what you think this might mean, for instance, do you think you are more susceptible to infections if you are at "racing" weight?
"But being the fastest I can be isn't that important to me" - again, fair enough.
".....he coaches elite athletes. His advice is probably not aimed at plodders like me" - I believe he coaches runners at all levels and I think his advice is for runners is general.
TR
"Who’s going to take the top off the toothpaste for you..." - I took it off in July and haven't put it back on again for fear of not being able to take it off again ; - )
Gobi,
".....have concluded that I shall just train more" - I tried going that route, but one of the precipitating factors for my embarking on losing weight, was that despite running 90M+ per week, I was still running times that I was unhappy with. You obviously don't have this problem as your race times are already very good.
WP,
"So will aim for 8 stone and see where it takes me ." - let us know how it goes, very interested to hear what happens.
Pug,
"I know that the combination of losing alot of weight and training hard brought me fantastic benefits." - that's for sure. I remember reading about your progress on the Edinburgh thread.
Mike S,
"....losing the amount he's recommending, for me, at any rate, is more trouble than it's worth" - again, fair enough.
Birkmyre,
"Right, lets get serious about this !!" - keep us posted.
"Surely being at an unnaturally low weight at which physiological processes such as reproduction, bone metabolism, and temperature control are jeapordised cannot be advocated?!" - definitely agree. Think it's worth mentioning that Horwill states "Every athlete has a best racing weight which should be elucidated by trial and error. But the starting point for this is to aim for 10 per cent below the average weight for height."
Buney,
"Doesnt it also depend on a number of individual genetic variables - natural body type and shape being one of them ..so someone with a bigger heavier skeleton would struggle to be at a lower weight than someone who has a naturally smaller and lighter build would?" - Horwill mentions that "according to Van Aaken's anatomical studies, is that if you were to take two men both of six feet in height but one broader than the other, when their bones alone are weighed the difference is not more than six pounds."
Scream,
"I agree with Nam and K9 etc however in that if I lost those extra 5kgs - which I don't think I'd be able to do incidentally - I would be unhealthy,....." - again, fair enough.
V-rap,
".....Trumped only by the temptation to keep enjoying my food and accept that running is just a hobby I'm not very good at...." - once more, fair enough.
"'ll have to stop eating chocolate, and I really, really don't want to do that" - I totally understand.
el Bee,
"......- 10% is reasonable though!" - Horwill mentions that a 10% drop is the right initial aim and then a sort of trial-and-error approach to determine optimum.
TmR,
"Although most of the top distance runnering women look really skinny, it can't really be said that they are all unhealthy. " - good point.
Raich,
"The Horwill theory seems to come up with a more realistic weight for me than my runner's handbook." - that's very interesting.
Gosh Scoobs...having met you I cant believe you were ever 3.5 stone overweight..
Having suffered with an eating disorder my self..(many years ago )...the whole weight issue scares me a little...I have read many a post where there seems to be a obsession with BMI...many falling below 18..which is really too low..yes they are running fast NOW..but what are the long term health issues ???
I have found an ideal weight for me..which I can maintain with eating well and exercising..regularly...yes I would race faster if I was half a stone lighter..but I darent try and lose weight...if I comes off naturally with marathon training..great ..but a diet ??..no way...!!!
As TmR says, it doesn't *have* to be all or nothing.
I'll never be 6st 6lb, but in the past I've become pregnant at just over 7st so presumably I'm capable of functioning normally at least half a stone below my current weight. I also became amenorrhoeic at 7st 7lb when I trained seriously for the first time, but all indications are that I've adapted, because I'm now nearly five years older and run far more miles and am in full working order.
And all I have to do to create a deficit of more than 3,500 calories a week, which should lead to steady weight loss, is to stop eating chocolate (I'm a 100g-a-day girl) and not replace it with anything else.
But I worry that my body would just adapt to a lower food intake, which I suspect does happen (I remember reading the elite athletes' self-reported food intake in RW a couple of months ago and thinking that they weren't having enough grub to keep a sparrow alive). And I enjoy cooking and eating nice food even more than I enjoy running.
And as NN says, what about the longer term? The thought of developing osteoporosis scares the hell out of me. I'd like to be able to look forward to being one of those tough, upright old boilers who can still hammer up hills in their nineties
well done on your 2 pbs jola. i've had 8 so far this year and i weigh myself every week - maybe you are missing out on something
marmite - no i wasn't so much thinking of infections as longer term health issues such as osteoporosis etc - exactly as vrap was discussing.
vrap - thats certainly becoming a problem for me. NZ retailers barely make it down to a size 8 in trousers (you have to look really hard for them) and i've never seen anywhere that does a size 6 which is for sure where i'm headed.
Miles makes smiles.
Progression
Do you have a view on how your body might respond if you were to pick up a bug?
V thats an impressive range of PBs - what would you say is the main factor in your improvement?
jola, m, V-rapt - well done on your PBs. I've had a couple of PBs this year, but I know I have much more in me yet. I hate the old excuse of weight and having had children, but I have to add after 3 of them, I am a completely diffferent shape to what I was before. My weight is not actually any more however. i just seem have developed middle-age spread that i can't get rid of. how do you find a balance then between eating enough for training while losing weight at the same time? i'm ravenous after a run and scoff constantly while I cook. i tend to run in the evening too which is probably not the best time to eat.
I actually did a body-fat calculator recently and I am on the verge of being 'overweight'. I currently sit at the high end of 'acceptable'.. that's scary considering i'm 7st11lb.
I've been lucky, Bedshaped. My skin is a little looser in places than it was before I had my kids (4 of them, and the youngest is 9) but if anything I'm more compact and muscular than when I was a lass
Not sure how I'll find a balance between eating less and eating enough to fuel my training. I'm accustomed to never having to worry about my fuel-tank being empty because I eat lots and eat regularly. Stopping eating chocolate won't deprive me of any essential nutrients apart from calories, but I won't know whether or not I'll start falling down without those chocolate-calories unless I try.
Buney, an important factor in my improvement has been that I stopped messing about doing "cross-training" activities that were contributing nothing useful to my running, and increased my running mileage, doing most of it at an easy effort level. THE most important factor, though, was eL Bee! kicking my @rse and telling me to stop plodding and run as if I was a fast runner
My weight can fluctuate 6 or 7 lbs in a day if weigh before and after a long run, so I'll deceive myself I'm closer to my 'ideal' weight by using my post long run weight!
Vel; you're tiny!! and a 3500cal deficit / week is huge. And weigh myself infrequently. More so since talking to BR but no more than once a week. Daily seems obsessive and probably errneous given the wide fluctuations in daily weight; mine at least.
Oh, and Gobi, excellent Gosport result, well done.