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Beginner-based marathon advice with Mike Gratton
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Hi DundeeRunner,
The suitability of runs over 20miles depends a bit on your ability and pace. A well trained athlete running 6 or 7 min miles will be able to cope well without breaking down in the week after, but a less well trained runner who is maybe running 10 to 12 min miles is going to find it all too much and they should look at time on feet more than distance covered.
From a physiological point of view lots of runs at or just over 2hrs will promote the adaptations you are looking for - from a psychological point of view the odd longer run is good for confidence so maybe 1 around 4 week out from the marathon would be a good idea.
In most cases recovery from a marathon is going to take 2 to 3 weeks at which point you will be OK to build up steady miles again and returning to your long run at a slow to steady pace should be comfortable - but it is a touchy-feely thing and you need to judge it on how you feel and back off if your legs are persistantly sore after training post marathon.
Hi Mike
Thanks for the reply, and very helpful. I fall right in the middle of your two ranges, typically doing my longer runs at about 8:15 - 8:30 pace. I am aiming for a 3:30 marathon time, which should be achievable based on my half times this year. In the past I have always struggled after 20 miles in the marathon, but have never run many 20 milers in the build up.
hi mike
i am a brand new marathon runner. I have reached the stage where i am beginning to run for 2 hours but have realised at the pace i am running that my time for the marathon is going to be 6 hours plus.
will i get faster with training or should i just accept that is how long it will take? It's just the idea of running for 6 hours is terrifying as found 2 hours really hard!!
many thanks
clare
Hi Mike,
I'm about to start training for my 4th London Marathon & am very keen to run sub 3 hours, I was due for a good time last year but unfortunately was injured just before & lost out on 6 weeks running just before, so came in with a 3rd practically identical time of 3.14, which is a shame as it was the first year i felt that I had put in some consistent training.
My question is about fitting in holidays!!! A friend of mine goes on the 3:09 event training camps each year & has said that she's found them really helpful & enjoyable so I'm thinking about signing up for the first week. However my husband is desperate to go skiing & I would love to as well, but it is likely that unless i had a scheduled training that fits around going skiing it wouldn't benefit my marathon build-up. Would there be a week on a marathon build-up which would be most suited to going skiing & any recommended sessions that could be done (bearing in mind that most ski resorts are fairly limited on where you can run, & it is dependant on road conditions & probably training early morning?
Thank you
Hi Clare,
I would anticipate that you will get much faster - even at your current long run pace it is likely that you will run the marathon slightly quicker since adrenalin and the race atmospher make it easier to motivate yourself to a faster pace and as time goes on you will do some speed work that will develop your ability to maintain a faster pace.
It's great that you are already up to 2hr runs at this early stage in your training.
Hi CamB,
As we run the training camps I would say most benifit will come from that (wouldn't I
). However, skiing is a good cardio vascular work out and you will inevitably be at a highish altitude so you will get fitness gains - you will just loose a bit of specific conditioning but that will come back after a few days.
We are also organising a Nordic Ski week as a fitness week for runners as an alternative to the standard down hill stuff. I'm not pushing that (it is sold out anyway) but it might be that at your ski resort you can have a go at cross country or Nordic skiing instead of down hill - you won't get a better work out for heart and lungs and you are using your legs a bit more like a running style although the impact and mechanics are not quite the same.
It's 2:09 Events by-the-way, you robbed me of a whole hour of performance
thanks mike - good to hear that i'm doing ok - am having to do most of my training alone so it can get a bit isolated at times - the forum is a fanastic help though
thanks again
c
Mike, good to see the thread. Sure it will be of real use to both novices and the more experienced marathoners alike.
No real questions at the mo. Just need a few extra hours in the day to fit the ultra training in!!
Hi Mike
This is my 3rd marathon - I had the privilege to run with you training in 2003 when I ran for Starlight.
Now with 2 young children, I can only commit to 3 sessions a week and have been doing 2 outside and 1 in the gym.
If I do one shorter, faster run midweek and one longer slower run at the weekend, what would be the best way to use my gym time? I have been trying to do interval training but am struggling to know what my running speeds should be and also what recovery time i should allow myself. I'd like to push myself, but am also aware that I am prone to hip injuries (bursitis?) and shin splints....
Thanks in advance
Katharyn
Hi Katheryn,
I think you are doing the right thing using the gym day for intervals - set the tread mill at your 10km pace at this stage and do 2mins fast then slow it down for 2mins - repeat up to 10 times. Make progress by gradually reducing the recovery time from 2 mins to 90sec and then 60sec.
You can vary this by doing a pyramid - 1min fast/1 slow/2 fast/2 slow/3 fast/2 slow/4 fast/ 2 slow/5 fast/2 slow/4 fast/2 slow/3 fast/2 slow/2 fast/s slow/1 fast - warm down.
You can do all sorts of variations keeping the pace around 10km pace.
Mike
I start my RW schedule on Monday but have still been running to get some miles in the legs, however I now have a case of DOMS as I haven't run for a good couple of months. Is it ok to run through this or should I wait until it clears, bearing in mind it usually takes a few days. And would there be any benefit in heat such as a sauna or jacuzzi to help speed up the process?
Hi Mike,
Sorry, I mistyped-wouldn't want to take away an hour-the difference between a gentle jog & running, for you, I guess!!!
Thanks for the feedback, I'm hoping to do both-training camp & skiing, to keep us both happy (although I'll have to eat beans on toast until then!). As I can pretty much decide when we go skiing & am currently trying to put together a schedule, would there be a point in the schedule that skiing would have the least effect, ie should I wait until 3 weeks before when I'm starting to taper?
I may well have a go at the nordic skiing, however my husband who boards wouldn't be that impressed (& it's fun beating him down the slopes!!).
Moscowflyer,
DOMS is a temporary condition but it is telling you to be careful - I think it is OK to train lightly, i.e. low intensity as I think it stimulates blood flow and will help the legs recover quicker.
I used to swear by hot baths, then along comes Paula Radcliffe with cold baths - I know which I prefer. Whichever is the current flavour the object of the hot baths are to relax the muscles and the cold to reduce swelling and clear waste in the muscle (I think contrast bathing - alternate hot & cold - works best).
CamB,
The reality ias 5.09 would be a good performances at the moment
Hi Mike,
I'm not strictly a beginner as ran New York as my first marathon in November, but wondered whether you could help me..since getting back from New York I've had problems with my knees, had a cold and an operation - all resulting in me not running for about a month!
Hopefully I'll be able to get out running this saturday (can't wait!) but am interested in any advice you have to get back into the training without causing myself any problems and also what training plan you'd recommend that I'd follow.
My best half marathon time is 1 hr 47 (in Dartford in July - so there were some hills!) so based on that I thought a 4 hour marathon time would be achievable but I only managed 4 hrs 18 in New York. I'd ideally like to run under 4 hours as I'm sure that I should be able to manage it but think I'm always quite conservative in races (of any distance) and don't run as fast as I could for fear of it all going wrong at the end.
Thanks
Ang
Hello Mike,
just a quickie for you............ I shall be running the Tresco Marathon next year instead of FLM, the course is 7.5 laps and has 3 hills per lap, so in effect a hill every mile.....whast would you recommend for hill training?
Many thanks and have a great Christmas and not too many mince pies!
Hi Ang,
Time is on your side and you will still have the benefit still have some background fitness from NY even if you haven't trained much since.
Spend a couple of weeks gradually putting in easy miles so that you get some conditioning back, but also do a couple of sessions each week of shuttle sprints. These are straight forward short sprints over 70 to 80m on a flat grass area - do 6 to 8 initially walking back to the start point for recovery. Don't sprint flat out but sprint so that you are feeling strong and in control.
The short sprints will tone you up and get the mechanics of running back fairly quickly and you will be able to increase them to 10 sprints getting faster as confidence grows. When you get to that point without any excessive soreness or pain then you are ready to resume the full training plan.
ToneytheTiger,
How are things - missed you in Cyprus this year.
As you know I think you need to make training quite specific so I would get a 2 to 3 mile loop with at least 3 hills in each loop. You can then do tempo runs on the circuit trying to hold the pace on the uphills while relaxing but maintaining the same pace of the down sections.
Increase the number of loops gradually, doing say 2 loops (4-6miles) now, increase by a loop per month so you end up with 6 loops by March and a tempo run of 12 to 18 miles.
hi clare dont worry i couldnot run a mile now i can jog run for 2hrs it is hard work but done it so with trainning u will b able to do 2 hrs no problem my first 10miles without trainning took me 2 hrs and 45 mins now the last 10miler including few hills took me 2 hous and nine mins. so TRUST IN YOURSELF u will do it i would love to have run london marathon but no place yet waiting to hear from charities but i still train and have confidence i will b at the starting gate u will c me
Hi Mike,
I got my pack from Asthma UK today, which includes your training plan and I will follow the sub-5 hour schedule - ish (like everyone else I have to juggle days and sessions).
I've been working up from walking in April to running now (about an hour max as partof longer sessions), and find that I can run on alternate days without injury, (which has been a big issue in the past, resulting in a one year lay-off). However, as soon as I try to run on consecutive days muscles and tendons start to break down.
One possible reason is that I habitually overtrain - but have managed to avoid that fate so far since April this year. 'Sensible' has finally taken over.
Today I did my first consecutive run without feeling wrecked. If it works (tomorrow will be a rest day) then fine, but if I wake tomorrow with an elevated heart-rate and aching joints, muscles and tendons... can I achieve my goal on 3.5 runs a week?
(I'm 51, heavily overweight, but have completed long-distance events previously (slow and determined), including FLM03 in 05:54ish - much slowed by asthma in second half after a 2:31 half split. Asthma is now under control)
Thanks
Cheers Mike,
I missed Cyprus too, hopefully next year we'll be back.
I must be learning from you quite well because that is along the lines that I was thinking, currently back to about 80 miles per week and just about to start to introduce a bit of harder training.
Good luck with the new thread, I'm sure you will be helping a lot of people to achieve far more than they thought they could.
Helegant,
As you realise, you need to introduce extra training on a gradual basis and it may mean reducing the intensity of your other training until you have adapted to the new load before going back to the same quality. It sometimes feels like you are taking a step back and getting slower, but long term the extra quantity will feed through to increased base fitness and support higher levels of training as you start to come to a peak at the end of the 4 month training block.
TTT,
It's just logic really and with your experience I think you would have done the right things.
Another question if I may please Mike.
I want to enter the Brooklands 10k on March 2nd but my training schedule suggests I should be doing a half marathon on this day, although there aren't any of those on that date. Should I just ditch the 10k and follow the plan, as the training itself is more important?
I'm doing the Kingston 16 miler two weeks before the FLM bt other than that I have no other races planned and looking at the upcoming events, there aren't any that fit into my training schedule.
hi Mike & everyone
I'm a first timer, so excited!, I have only missed one FLM as a spectator. I'm also hopefully recovering from a bad cold like many others here & raring to go. I've been running for 2 years after accidentally taking it up via Race for Life, & absolutely love it. I've done loads of halves, all under 2 hours, best 1:53. I was 50 in November.
My question is about my job. I'm a community police officer & i do long hours [10 - 12 hour shifts] on a 24/7 shift pattern. This already plays havoc with training as i have to cram sessions in when i'm off etc, get loads of lurgies too, but i also walk about 2 miles an hour on the beat , that's 10 to 15 miles per shift for 4-6 days at a time.
Should i be adjusting my training in any way? Any general tips for training whilst shift working would also be greatly appreciated. I am often exhausted.
I tend to use up my leave taking the day before a race off, that's as scientific as i get.
I'd also like to know if 10:30 pace on long runs is OK for a hopeful 4 hour finish, & finally how to manage the clogged start at London. I'm worried about starting so slow that the pace i'd have to do to make up would be beyond my capabilities.
Thanks so much for doing this. Hope you get time to answer mine. If not it's a great read for us all anyway.
reikirabbit:
I too work 12 hour shifts, so I know what it's like, however you must get the training in to do yourself justice at FLM.
You have given no indication of what your current level of training is, so I shall not offer any suggestions except that your suggested pace for the long runs is OK as a 4 hour marathon is 9:10 pace.
At this stage it is too early to fuss about the actual race day, just concentrate on getting the training in and pester Mike as much as you can. He's been a huge help to me.
Good luck.
Hello Mike!
. This was followed by 7 weeks out altogether, though I did about 5 hours a week cv work on the bike in the gym. I am now rebuilding mileage and am up to about 30 miles a week and LR of 8 miles, though I am yet to reintroduce speed/LT sessions.
This is a great thread - much appreciated, and useful to relative beginners like me, as well as total newbies. I hope you don't mind me asking for advice when I am not a complete marathon novice.
I'm a 43 year old female who ran Cardiff Oct 06 in 3:39 and Stratford Apr 07 in 3:35. I trained very hard for Leicester in Oct 07 hoping to crack 3:30, but had to pull out three days before the race because of injury.
I have a GFA place at FLM, but think it might be more realistic to treat that as a 'training run' and target 3:30 at Edinburgh or Abingdon. My question though is how long do you think I need to leave it before I reintroduce some faster sessions? Previously I have started marathon training off a good LR distance and regular speed and LT sessions. How high do I need to get my LR distance and weekly mileage before trying to remind my legs how to run fast? (Sadly, I generally need to work very hard at speed: endurance comes a lot easier to me!).
Thanks so much for taking to time to answer our questions on here!!
And just a word of enouragement to you first timers: stick with it, work hard, and you will amaze yourself with what you can achieve. There is very little that equals that feeling of crossing the finishing line after your first marathon with a time you feel proud of!!!