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Beginner-based marathon advice with Mike Gratton
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Hi Shortnginger,
I would suggest doing a fair amount of Threshold running (this will be a bit quicker than your half marathon pace) - it can take many form - 1 miles reps with 3 mins recovery, 15 mins running on a flat route with few traffic junctions, recover jog for 10mins and then try to run back to the starting point in 15mins (or less), 30-40 min continuous runs or combination runs - 3 that I used to do were:
8 to 10 miles running first mile at steady (slower than marathon speed) then alternate with miles at half marathon speed so that you run steady mile/threshold mile/steady mile/threshold and so on.
30min threshold run followed by 10 x 400m on grass at 10km pace with 1 min to 90sec recovery.
5 to 7 mile cross country races - there are plenty of cross country leagues (you may need to join a club if you're not already in one) and they are usually on Saturdays so they suit the timetable of getting the long runs on Sunday.
The idea is to try to run at a sustained pace for longer than is comfortable so that you become more efficient at these speeds.
Hi Mike
FLM 1st timer - just my place via club ballott and I feel really nervous, scared that I've taken too much on - but I really want to do it. I have so far 7 1/2 marathons under my belt - from 1.54 to 2 hr 16 and can manage tops 3 runs a week. 1 club session - usually speedwork one Sunday morning run which can be the long one and 1 other of up to 1 hr - plus a swim and 1 gym session which i enjoy - the swim can't be replaced as its with daughter lesson. Plus overweight - and asthmatic. Ran 10/11 miles yesterday and managed a 14 mile run before christmas which was furthest I've ever ran. i really just want to get round - I have several friend to train with - also 1st timers so should keep me company on long runs
Any advice - is feeling scared /nervous norma
Thanks Mike. I got the 190 max heart rate by doing the two, three minute bursts on the treadmill as per the RW guide rather than by deducting age from 220 bpm. It was a bit of a stab in the dark as my hr monitor got to 190 then seemed to malfunction and then went to 50 bpm (which is lower than my resting heart rate!) In fact, the gym treadmill hrm also recorded 50 at this stage too??? By this point I was too knackered to go again and record it manually.
I will try to take your advice re doing some one hour runs and deriving my threshold that way. in the meantime, I guess I should just follow the pace guide (i.e. slow, steady, fast) rather than adhere to a particular bpm percentage. Does this sound sensible. Thanks v much!!!
That was good advice about the threshold pace. It isn't something I've ever considered, but will test this morning for about an hour.
(MT, I am 191 MHR and 58 RHR so in a similar range to you - age 51. The 70% long runs have resulted in running faster for the same effort despite being tediously slow.)
City Fan,
The thing to remeber is that 35,000 start FLM every year and all but a few (mostly elite runners!) finish - if you have run 7 x half marathons then the marathon is going to be very do-able for you. But it is hard for everyone, which is why it is such a facinating challenge and the state you finish in will be a result of your training - which to me sounds fine.
The key for you is to extend the long run day so that you build up endurance - the more long runs of 2hrs+ you can do between now and April the better you will perform on race day in terms of comfortably completing the distance. Then it is down to running to your target which is where discomfort comes in - more on achieving targets in a couple of months time though - now is the time to churn out the long runs.
Hi Meredith,
I always trained on time/pace but then my best days were in the late 70s and early 80s and HR Monitors were not practical then unless you got wired up to a room sized computer and ran on a treadmill next to it..
You need to use a combination of feedbacks, both pace judgement and HR recordings until you get what you can be considered normal for you. One of the best uses for HR Monitoring is to measure improvement - if you can cover a set distance at the same heart rate but faster then you are improving.
Thanks for that mike much appreciated
oh and happy new year!!
Hi Mike. Many thanks for running this thread - it's a great help.
My question is this: am I running at the 'correct' speed?
To expand: I've run on/off (mostly off) since 2002, when I did the GNR. I did Paris Marathon in 2004 (on NO training!), and a few halves in 2005/6. However, only last year, when I changed jobs, did I manage to get into a routine of regularly training, and doing 3-4 runs a week, over a 6 month period. This culminated in a PB of 1:34 for Nottingham HM in September.
I'm doing FLM this year, and am sticking to the RW Smart Coach programme; basically 4 runs a week, 1 long, 2 easy, and 1 tempo/speedwork, mileage starting around 30, increasing by 10% a week (I do triathlon too, so am putting in 3 swims/2 rides a week base training for next season).
However, I've a major problem with what pace to run at. I'm aiming for sub 3:15, which I can just about achieve, based on my HM PB (& 10k PB of 42:13, which is a little 'better' than than my HM PB). The plan I'm following says I should be running my long run, and 2 easy runs at 8:20mm (this reduces by 10 seconds each 4 weeks, peaking at 7:50mm therefore).
I've seen that my long/easy runs should be at about 70% MHR. My max is 196 (I'm 28 BTW), so that's approx 140. However, running at 8:20 my HR is about 165-170 (about 85% max). This doesn't feel uncomfortable, and is what I trained at for most of last year (I actually did most runs quicker than that, training regular at 170-180 BPM). My ave HR for my HM PB was 181.
If I run at 140 BPM, I'd be about 10:00mm pace - which feels very slow, and seems far too slow for my target time, which is sub 7:30mm pace. But I'm obviously aware of training too much at too high a HR increases the risks of injury.
I'm very confused as to what to do - do I run slower, to 'achieve' my HR target, or run quicker to make my pace targets (but then I'm obviously running anaerobically, rather that aerobically). And can I maintain 175+ BPM for a marathon?
Help please!!
Neil
Hi Neil,
I thionk your HM HR average is the best indicator and will be around your threshold level - if you count that as being your 85% training level you can adjust the other HRs from that.
My feeling that once you have race experience then the times you run in the races are the best indicators of pace since the times you record in races are generally your true limit. At your ability a 10mile race will probably give you your threshold level most accurately and may be worth your while running a 10mile race to establish this.
In the meantime I would use time as a way of setting the training pace.
Hi Mike
I ran my first marathon in November 07 (New York) and am doing the London marathon in April. As New York was my first, I followed a basic schedule which got me round just fine (4:51). I would like to improve my time for London (aiming for about 4:30).
My query relates to which schedule is best. I am tossing up between the RW Ultimate Schedule for sub-4.30 or the First 3 day a week schedule. My concern with the First schedule is that the sessions are much harder as you are only running 3 times a week - is this suitable for a relative newbie? Or would I be better off sticking to a more 'conventional' schedule such as the RW one?
I don't have any injuries, but I am prone to getting sore knees (tight ITBs) if I run 5 times a week.
thanks
Little T
Hi Little T,
I am always in favour of a standard schedule that doesn't take short cuts or try to cram training in to compensate for lack of time. If you can run more than 3 times a week and build up a bedrock of fitness around steady runs I personally think it is better from an endurance point of view than a short high intensity schedule.
All of the athletes I have coached have seen the biggest improvements from increasing the frequency of sessions - first to daily runs then ultimately to twice daily runs for the elites amongst them and they suffer fewer injuries than runners doing a less mileage but doinf lots of faster running since the impact stress and muscle damage is less.
Thanks for advice Mike - I appreciate you taking the time. Can't wait to get started.
cheers
Little T
Triciallit,
You can't go wrong with Hal Higdons schedules (and I hope mine as either the ones done for RW or available on my website at www.209events.com). There shouldn't be a problem moving some elements around to fit your time available as long as in general you avoid doing too many hard sessions together - if you can achieve easy/medium/hard/easy/medium/hard as a rotation of the sessions you will be fine. A few medium days together is fine, particularly late on when fitness has grown and you are coming to a peak but too may hard days close together will result in injury.
Hi Mike
I'm currently following the RW 3:45 schedule, but have tweaked it so that my actual training pace is calculated for 3:35 pace. I've got the Wokingham half on Feb 10th followed by the Brooklands 10k in March. What sort of times should I be looking for in these races as a guide to see if I'm on target to getting around a 3:35 to 3:40 in the FLM?
Thanks
Hi Moscowflyer,
I would think that a half marathon in around 1.40 and a 10km in around 56 would be good indicators.
Hi, Im Gemma im going to be doing my first ever 5k run in aril hen another in September, went for my first run,well, jog today and it nearly killed me. The problem I found wsmy breathing,is there any breathigtechniques i can try?
LittleEngine,
My advice is to get 6 months of jogging and then running under your belt and do some shorter races and then come back and do one of the schedules suitable for runners with some back ground. That will give you 9 months to train for your marathon rather than 4.
I know life isn't like that and if you got into London then you are going to have to get fit enough in 4 months - the secret is to build gradually and it all comes together very suddenly 2/3rd through - if you start to hard then it all falls apart 2/3rd through.
Hi Gemma,
It is the toughest stage to be at but you will make progress very quickly.
The secret is to try to get your breathing in sync with your foot hitting the ground as the impact pushes the air out of your lungs.
Your breathing rate is also dictated by effort and usually beginners try too hard and quickly get out of breath.
If you significantly slow down and try to breath in and out at the rhythm of your leg movements you will soon over come the problem.
Also set out to run in small sections - maybe just run 100m then walk 100m alternately for 10mins and gradually you will find the running bits get longer and the walking bits get shorter until you can comfortably run 10mins contuinuously - once you get the feel of continuous running you will find that moving to much longer runs comes quite quickly.
In running going slowly definitely means that you improve quicker.
Hi Mike,
In total blind beginner's luck, I managed to get a ballot place on my first attempt for the FLM, something I've always had a secret ambition to do. Until I realised I had a place, I really didn't do anything even approaching 'training' - it was more along the lines of going out for a brief run a few times a month when I was in the mood. But I'm really excited about doing a marathon (if a little scared and probably in a bit of denial about just how hard it is!!) and have moved into regular running, which I'm really enjoying. I already do a lot of walking, since I live in London and don't have a car, so think I've got some basis of leg strength.
I decided in my own wee (probably deluded) head that running a time of around 4.30 would be great, but would be happy to get under 5 hours. Subsequently, I've taken on the sub-4.30 RW schedule purely on the basis that I want to do all running rather than a walk/run schedule, which I find disruptive, and am allowing for my times to be slightly out what is suggested.
Basically, what I would like your advice on is whether I am being wildly over ambitious on times considering I am a total beginner and I don't really have much to go on except a 10k time from two years ago that was got with very little training (1.16), and am I just building myself up to come acropper from injury etc??
Any advice would be much appreciated! Thanks!
Happy New Year
Mike, I am running Paris at the beginning of April as my first Marathon. I am a club runner with 10k racing times of 58.22 (very hilly) and 55.18 (flat) and 10mile time of 1.31 (first time at that distance). I have opted for the sub 4.30 RW schedule and have my first half marathon at the end of Jan for which I have completed a 12 mile training run in 2 hours at an average pace of 9.80. My problem is that I am losing confidence as I have been laid low this week with a nasty cold and I had to jiggle the christmad schedule around so much because of family commitments, I only managed toget out on Boxing Day morning for 4.5 miles. I currently should be on week three of the 16 week schedule and it's gone to pot, I cannot see myself getting out before Monday at the earliest...
Question...have I blown it for Paris (6 April) my ultimate goal and my Half Marathon (20 Jan), my confidence has gone and I am now turning into a worrier instead of a runner!
Dalesgirl
Hi Mike
Thank you first of all for devoting so much time to helping all of us out here.
Just hoping for some confirmation that what I'm doing is OK. Started out by winning a FLM place in an auction 7 weeks before the 16 week training schedule. Have often thought about running the marathon, but no more than that. Am 42 and a totally novice runner and hadn't really done a lot of exercise for the best part of a year other than some swimming over the summer. Was very fit in my youth (as a dancer). I realise that ideally I should have been running for around 6 months before embarking on training for the FLM, but this is the way this worked out.Started 'running' immediately 4 x per week, building up from 1/2 a mile to 3 miles 4 x per week and one five mile very slow 'run' during those five weeks. Am now on the Get you round schedule, except that I've tweaked it a little. I haven't walked as much on the short runs, preferring to go for around 8 minutes before walking and similarly on the long run. Also, I read on a different thread that the GYR schedule roughly equates to a 12 minute mile. Accordingly, I have worked out a mileage based on the number of minutes specified for the long run and have 'run' that. I'm actually fairly pleased with how far I've come in these nine weeks. I am very slow at around 13 minutes per mile - and my longest run so far was last Monday when I ran 6.2 miles. For the long runs to come I propose to follow the run/walk minutes more closely as I think I will need those walks a little more that I have so far.
How does all this sound?
b_fusion,
It's impossible to know if you are capable of 4.30 at this stage but suspect that you are capable of it if you are managing the training OK. If you start to feel overly tired from the training just back off a bit to recover and then gradually increase again.
Gatton,
You need to start with some very easy runs and gradually step up the pace as you feel able. My favourite ploy is to do shuttle sprints over 80m to coax the legs back into action but without causing too much stress and you can always stop them if you still don't feel right. It's usually a bit of a struggle for the first week back as you clear the gunge and then starts to get better quickly - if it doesn't may be worth checking with your Dr.
Dalesgirl,
Few people will get a clear run through in their trainign without some interuption from clolds, family and holidays so don't panic.
I wouldn't set any targets for the Jan half marathon, just set out to run it for training ans see what happens.
paris is sufficiently far away for you to get back on track but don't try to cram in training in order to get back on schedule, spend a week or two just gently getting back into it and I suggest try to be back on track following the half marathon.
Your stae of mind will change once you are into a regular pattern again and you will have many ups and downs before the big day.