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GFA? is it possible for the average person?
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Safety29 interesting response but I think comparing Redgrave,Pinsent to Cracknell is wrong. I only say this because Pinsent and Redgrave trained to just get round the marathon where as Cracknell has thrown himself into his running and his training and has set himself specific targets he wants to achieve like sub 3. I think everyone would agree that Redgrave and Pinsent would have the aerobic engines to get themselves round but they lack the desire to do the training.
I also thing Cracknell looks like he weigh's less than when he was a competitive rower this must have some effect....???
FWIW I weigh 12 stone and will be 41 in 2 weeks.
Ok. 36 year old, 10st 3 girlie here. Been told I've got a good build to be a good runner. Plods 5K 3 times a week (recovering from knee injury). Did a slow (but extremely fun) mara injured 2007.
What do I need to get a GFA time?
Suggestions
run 80+ mpw
Build up slowly over a few months. I too had a knee (ligament) injury last year.
Hello KKD
I'm looking to do this as well.
Are you running at the moment, i'd say first make sure your knee (and the rest of you is healthy then gradually increase the miles like TR said
Safety29 - could you post up a sample typical weekly training programme from when you were unable to get far beyond half of 80mpw. Running 80mpw is a case of going about it the right way. It's not always about training like a beast, but training conservatively and progressively.
As has been said, we shall never know if Matthew Pinsent could have run a sub 3 had he trained 80mpw for 2 years as he chose not to, so I don't see the relevance of his (or Redgrave's) marathon to this discussion. Graham Gooch was able to take 333 of the Indian bowling of 1990 but didn't manage to run much under 5 hours, but he wasn't training for it, just as they weren't. A high level of ability on one sport does not necessarily transfer it to another sport without the requisite training.
You can disagree with me, and you put your points well, but I still don't see anyone presenting me with a 80mpw runner under 40 who cannot break 3 hours. The fact one or two might not have been right on the day does not mean they could not have done it.
KKD
You "only" need to do 3:45 for GFA, so I don't think you need 80mpw.
Once your injury has recovered, gradually build up the mileage. Firstly by extending one of your runs to a "Long Slow Run" and then by adding a 4th run. Up the 5K plods to 5 miles minimum and the LSR to 10 miles minimum. Join a running club if you haven't already. Race regularly, say twice a month.
Get hold of a marathon training programme for 3:30 and follow it.
Avoid injury & good luck!
Barnsleyrunner, I found that running anything over 13 miles traumatised my body to the point that a few days of rest were required. This was just as true at the end of the training, as much as the start back in August. To be honest, 30mpw was probably my maximum output in 8 months.
As I have posted earlier, I think the link between rowing and running and comparing individual competitors such as Pinsent and Cracknell has been taken too literally. My point to joining this thread was just to highlight my belief that there are alot of above average sportsmen who would be unable to train for 80mpw and/or would never be able to break 3 hours for a marathon.
While I am a firm believer of ideas being bounced around for a little while, (isn't that what forums are for?) there comes a time when you have to agree to disagree and retire gracefully. Otherwise the thread becomes an 'I'm right and you're wrong' deal, which goes round in circles! (See: Is this man a fraud?) Therefore, I'll let some other bugger have a go at disproving your theory, and risk the wrath of the sub 3 hour crew!
Safety29 - just because not many people break 6:30 for 2k doesn't mean not many are capable of it (exactly the same as for a GFA marathon). I doubt many of the people at the BIRC spent (say) 12 hours a week on the erg for 2 years. For example, a guy I knew had been rowing a couple of years and had a PB of around 6:40. The next summer for 3 months he just did a long erg virtually every day. First 2k he did after this he did something like 6.08 (and he wasn't even that big). Obviously he had some talent (6:40 isn't exactly bad, but he had done a reasonable amount of training to get there) but he wasn't a complete natural.
TR could do a sub 6:30 with a bit of training but he's already got good CV and is a lot stronger than most runners, so we can't really use him as an example.
Anyway, we should probably stop talking about rowing or we'll get kicked off the thread!
Got the facts now. Apr06 edition of RW. DanA Ran FLM06 aged 32. He'd been running since he was a kid. His marathon PB was 3.05, FLM 06 was to be his 16th attempt for a sub 3. He'd also run 7 ultras, so obviously had the endurance base. He was being coached by RW and failed again, (admittedly after running a 2.03 in the Finchley 20). From memory he finally went sub 3 in NY in his next attempt.
Having won the Thames Towpath in 08, and The MoB07, Dan clearly is light years better than the average.
Q Why should such a good runner have such trouble to get a GFA time?
A Because it's not quite as easy as some on here would lead us to believe.
So If I have average or below average talent and can addres the issues of eating the correct food to sustan my energy but get down to a low suitable weight and do lots of exercises to strenthen my weak areas eg kness shoulders and then follow the training of 80 hours a week for a couple of years me Mrs Average can get a GFA
I will have to neglect OH kids house work etc but it can be done
May I just say that if I have the mindframe to do those things then I haven't got an average mindframe....
The average person you talk about hasn't the mindframe to follow this and neglect everything else...
So I would go back to the fact that you have to have a strength in one area either talent or physical perfection or a mindset that allows you to obsess on one thing only.. (like being Autistic apectrum or OCD)
Without having one of those features its not easy for the average person to achieve GFA
A agree with you it's not easy, but some on here, and I quote
I'll keep saying it, show me someone who has run 80mpw for 2 years and prepared properly for the marathon who has NOT run sub 3 / sub 3.45.
seem to think the average runner can do it in 2 years.
DanA is well above average and it took him over 10 years
Dull
Thanks 20 mins (aka 200!!)
Glad you put only in " ".
Bad biomecanics meant I injured my knee big time. Its pretty much all sorted so I'm back running slowly building back up my fitness.
I was part of a running club before injury but couldn't get timings to work for work, club and mara training (couldn't get schedule to not have three hard sessions together). I've got 3 10K races in May, a half in Sept and (hopefully) the Loch Ness mara in Oct.
I will build slowly but what does a 80mpw schedule typically look like?
Hi Pammie. Good luck with the running.
p.s. On the rowing front, maybe I should spend some time over the summer (a) improving my ergo technique and (b) losing 2kg, and I might sign up for the indoor rowing champs. (Currently 77kg, 6:58.8) Fancy a row-off, TR?
KKD
I'm not sure that you'll readily find an 80mpw schedule; as sarahbob suggests you can use the RW schedules from this site - although to be sure of GFA I'd be inclined to go for the 3:30 plan rather than the 3:45 plan.
I'm sure you don't need 80mpw, but such a schedule would amost certainly include running 6/7 days per week and "doubles" (eg 5 miles am, 12 miles pm).
A few pages back GFA dates were given - this is taken from LM website -
The closing date for receipt of letters applying for a GFA entry form is Friday 22nd August 2008
Just a quick contribution to the 80mpw thing... that was more or less my average from last year.
To do so I ran every day of the year, normally twice. On average it was about 75minutes of running per day for me to achieve that level of . I had no real down time in that period, running 53 miles for my lowest volume week (before a key track race) and 110 in my toughest week. It wasn't easy and I strongly suspect that anybody else who could maintain that level of training for a 6 months (let alone 2yrs) would make huge strides towards reaching GFA level.
Here's an example of a typical training week from last year - this is for 10km training rather than marathon.
M: 42mins steady, 45mins steady
T: 34mins steady, 9M inc 4 x mile about 5km pace
W: 47mins steady, 1hr12 steady
T: 36mins steady, pm 7.5M inc 10 x 400m between 1500 and 3000m pace
F: 43mins steady, 47mins steady
S: 14 mile inc hill session
S: 1hr24 slow, 5.5M easy
Consider that the first weekday run will be in my lunch hour and the second session straight after work, I'd normally be home and showered by 6:30pm.
80 mpw in 75 minutes per day is just over 6:30 per mile. As an average for 80 miles, with no rest days all year is pretty quick and I'd say that you have to be very disciplined with warming up, cooling down and stretching AND be naturally resilient to injury to reach that level of intensity. I'm not saying it can't be done, because obviously it can, but anyone trying to build up to that quantity of fast-paced running needs to be very careful about picking up an injury.
Dull - are you saying DanA averaged 80mpw for 10 years before breaking 3hrs? Obviously it is dependent on finding the right course on the right day with the right short term preparation. You have suggested someone who may be an exception to my assertion. From what you have posted, he was in sub 3 shape at the time (given his 20m time) but it just didn't come right on the day for some reason. Just like I was in sub 2.45 shape for Paris but didn't do it because of (I believe) short term preparation and fuelling.
Oh, and I never said it was easy, just doable.
Re. the ASD / OCD point, as BEJ has pointed out, it can be a matter of being focussed and organised. You don't have to have a diagnosed neurological condition to run 80mpw. I would guess a lot of people who `can't fit in' the amount of training needed would watch a similar amount of TV to the time it would take to run that amount.
Maybe - but My Leisure Centre membership only allows Lido access.
Sarahbob (Mrs C) is my hero !
TR - are you saying that any man under 40 can run sub 3 off 5 or 6 runs a week, as long as the main sessions are there?
I would disagree with that as I have former clubmates who have done just that and not broken 3 hrs. I would contend that had they stuck in 80mpw they would have. In fact when I ran 5 or 6 times per week at 55-60 miles for my first marathon I did 3:14.
I don't think its as simple as saying that do 80mpw and you'll crack 3 hours. It'll help (assuming you build up to it without injury) but its no guarantee. There are 4 hour marathoners who do big mileage but all at 8 min/mile, and then wonder why 7 min/mile is such a struggle. Doing big mileage is only worthwhile if there's a balance between quantity & quality.
Personally, 80mpw would bore me rigid. I'd much rather stick to 40 mpw max and spend any extra time on my bike, but each to their own.
KKD
I agree with 20mins and SarahBob - the RW Sub3:45 schedule was fine for me (3:41:30). I'm built for endurance, not speed, so did the sub4:00 speedwork, but went out for more on the long runs. The principle of getting your 5 longest runs totalling 100miles gives you extra insurance (and confidence) over the last 6.2 miles. From the previous June until Christmas I was averaging less than one run a week, but I'm sure having a decent base level reduces your risk of injury and makes the building up less painful.
CD - if there are 4 hr marathon runners doing big miles at 8m/m I would suggest they're training far too fast, as Mpace would be around 9m/m!!
You say mileage is only worthwhile if mixed with `quality'. I think TR only did 2 `quality' sessions pre 2:52 FLM.