Sound vs Silence



  • MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭

    Quote from what I posted earlier:

    "It's a shame to see Muzzy persisting with his line that opponents of iPods are opponents of deaf runners. They're not, and have never said they are. Enforced silence (or tinnitis or whatever) from hearing loss is one thing; voluntary distraction through headphones something entirely different. The former is not a safety issue, the latter is. Or rather, the former is a safety issue but it's one its sufferers are aware of and can compensate for. "

    I don't like being accused of prejudice.

    Muzzy, you've got a chip on your shoulder. Go bury it somewhere.  

  • On the ipods Vs deaf runners issue, I would hazard a guess that a deaf is more tuned in to their environment than an ipod wearer, and have adapted their other senses to cope with their situation in everyday life, whereas the ipod wearer certainly wouldn't have. But agree it's probably marginal and yes, neither of them can necessarily hear a marshal's instructions.

    In terms of 'banning' one or the other from races. Well, if the argument is from a safety perspective, the race organiser is essentially trying to LIMIT the likely risk of accidents, runners going off course because they couldn't hear the marshals etc etc. They certainly can't eliminate the risk all together.

    While I'm sure there are plenty of deaf runners, the number at any one race is likely to be an insignificant proportion. Ipod wearers on the other hand are obviously much more significant in number, so an ban on their use is going to have a significant impact on limiting any risk.

    There's obviously a separate debate as to whether there is indeed a safety issue of wearing ipods as opposed to not, and as most people have said, the evidence is anecdotal. Personally, I think the safety argument is quite a thin one and, in races where ipods are banned, I don't think safety has necessarily been stated as the reason.

    My dislike of ipods is from the angle of a race being primarily a competitive, sporting event, whether you're at the front of the field competing to win or at the back of the field striving for your own personal acheivement and pb, blah blah blah... Plus the fact that they are technically disallowed anyway, whether or not race organisers choose to enforce the rule.

  • Muzzy - in a few years if they invent DVD goggles which enabled you to have a 3D experience of films just by wearing glasses and runners used them to distract (yep unbelievable but bear with me) and there was this argument ........... but over sight?

    I would argue that overcoming a sensory loss like sight and running with a guide is fantastic and to be supported/applauded.

    I would also argue that a runner choosing to wear goggles to watch a film should be asked not to...........whilst racing

    (what they do in their own training if it doesn't pose a risk to others is up to them) 

    Is that not the same argument that has been made about iplodders and deaf runners ?    

    I've not seen anyone say that runners with hearing loss shouldn't run/race. Many people have indicated how they're more likely to be aware of their surroundings that the iplodder ?

  • If someone said that runners with sight or hearing loss shouldn't race/run I'd be right beside you in being angry about it ?
  • I think running without sight is going to have far more of an effect that running without being able to hear, so I don't really think it's a valid analogy.

    If a deaf person can compensate for a loss of hearing, why can't someone wearing an iPod?  Granted they won't have had as much practice, but I wouldn't have thought it required a great deal of skill to look round before moving across.  I do that anyway even though I don't run with earphones - I think in a closely packed field I wouldn't be able to tell with all the feet hitting the ground if there was someone coming up on me. 

  • If a deaf person can compensate for a loss of hearing, why can't someone wearing an iPod? 

    They can always take the earphones out and therefore stop impairing their hearing (to whatever extent they do) Deaf or hearing impaired people dont have the luxury of that choice!

    And no i dont think deaf runners should be prevented from racing - deafness isnt a lifestyle choice like listening to music through headphones is

  • yes they can Buney, but that doesn't answer my question.
  • Yikes, as a person new to running, this thread is pretty scaryimage.  Didn't realise there was so much bad feeling out there to those that run with music, of which I am one.  I run to music because I enjoy it,  I enjoy selecting playlists to run to, and its the one time I get to listen to what I want to listen to. I mainly run on my own and then use it all the time, when running with friends we chat, but I keep the headphones in 1 ear as I use the Nike+ system so we use it for time and distance purposes when trying out new routes etc.  I still appreciate my surroundings , am aware of whats going on around me and acknowledge all runners/cyclists/pedestrians on my route. I do that anyway as a matter of good manners, funnily enough some people did not return the courtesy and you've now all got me thinking that perhaps it was disapproval rather than bad manners on their part! I completed my first 10k a few weeks ago, with my music. I was not told that you were not allowed to race with headphones in, and until now was not aware of what a contentious issue this is - the marshalls were all friendly, still chatted to me and gave me words of encouragement, that I could hear perfectly well, and I thoroughly enjoyed the experience.  I took up running to loose weight and keep fit , and because it was so inclusive. I hope I was not wrong in the impression I had .

    To each there own

  • well Bear a lot of people who run with music say their hearing  isn't impaired by it so dont consider how they may compensate for it?

    whereas I imagine deaf or hearing impaired people spend much of their  lives compensating for not being able to hear ..thankfully i am very lucky to be able to hear - although i now sometimes struggle to hear conversations in noisy busy places like pubs and put that down to a misspent youth of listening to a walkman too loud and too much clubbing

    I also think there is a huge difference to listening to external sounds and having concentrated sound "in ear" With the former there are many layers of sounds - near/distant/background- different volumes pitches etc - with in ear sound the primary sound is that from the device and other sounds are sometimes blocked out or muffled - so i can listen to the rafio and watch tv and hear the phone ring but if i had headphones in/on then the other sounds are not as clear -especially if i am absorbed  in or trying to concentrate on what is coming thru the headphones (Im watching tv at the moment and can still hear birdsong outside despite the sound of my keyboard bashing!)

    my personal take is that people can choose to run/train with music if they want but race organisers can also choose to outlaw music players  and people then have the option to particpate or not

  • Bear - Not going to argue which sense is more of a loss but take your point.......... my analogy was not meant to compare running with either loss but Muzzy's take on the argument of deaf = ipod user = not allowed to run.
  • I've been reading this thread and as a "new" runner had not realised that this i-pod thing was such a big deal!

    The reason I run is to try and get fitter but I really enjoy the time to chill out and concentrate on my own pace, effort, breathing and can think of nothing if I want. Great! But sometimes I think of work related problems and come up with ideas, or I think of stuff on the home front, and again come up with ideas. Maybe that's why I've never needed to use an i-pod?

    What I enjoy about running is the simplicity of it. I have never used an i-pod for running but am now tempted to try it out! If I do, I'll let you know.

    Each to their own.

  • sorry but what difference does it make if its a lifestyle choice???? or not, if its dangerous its dangerous. sorry but I dont think it is dangerous, to use headphones, were are becoming an obsessive compulsive world on health and safety

    for crying out loud, what next helmets and knee pads, sure thats been said already, but the basics of it is if you have loss of hearing, and or wear headphones you also have loss of hearing, so you cant single one out to the other, madness, banning headphones on lifetstyle choice, also like banning headphones as people are being sociable in races  

    you want to be sociable go do a fellrace, everyone talks to everyone, and why is it people want to run about a race talking to other people?  thats one of the reasons ~I wear my headphones, I dont want to speak I want to do a pb!!!!! I really didnt want to have an argument but your reasons are wrong, if you ban on health and safety yes ok, but not lifestyle choiceimage

  • I am going to quit this forum before I quit running full stop.

    None of the people know me or how I prefer to run, but they have already came to the opinion that I am inconsiderate of other people around me.

    I started to run for nothing more than myself. I don't enter runs to win (and I never will). I enter them to challenge myself. I am sorry for the small number of people out there who think I don't take it seriously. But hey ho, that's life.

    As a kid I never did sport, and I am wishing I never started now as it's bringing back a load of awful memories.

    Thanks for ruining it!!!

  • it sounds to me like this is a promo site for Nike sponsored by runner's world.

    are you going to mention other music web sites and the value of their methods? or is this just another advertising venue for Nike?

  • Well said POOKY imageimage and more power to you.  This is what running is all about - freedom!!! There's always a group of mean spirited people trying to impose their views on everyone else.  So many people blame everything around them for their own limitation instead of taking responsibility themselves. 

    I run because I chose to,  I listen to music because I chose to and if I chose to do both at the same time I will and no one has the right to stop me unless they can come up with scientific evidence that it's dangerous to other runners. 

    There's alway going to be idiots out there who are a danger to others, some wear iPods and some don't.

  •  What I do tend to find is that certain music when running (depending on the tempo) can often be misguiding, as for some reason my pace quickens to what it normally would be, therefore disrupting the whole thing towards the end as I dont realise Ive been running faster than normal. I have my pace if I go any quicker than that without a steady build up, it cant be that good.

     Also living in London, where traffic is very considerate of us runners! I have decided to go no music when road running, as I reallly do have to watch out for twats on the road.  If I'm canal or off road running then I do take music but am careful to select certain music that perhaps reflects my running pace. 

    Any case this week I been very neglectful or my running - too much work on  - so will be back to it next week.

  • Buney - if it really isn't impairing their hearing then they don't need to compensate for it though.  Granted I expect there'll be some who are unrealistic and they do need to take a more realistic approach, but there seems to be an awful lot of "black and white" judgements being made here - tarring everyone with the same brush. 
  • Muzzy who seems to have a large chip on their shoulder about being deaf. In the Deaf Runners thread he/she seems to gleefully post that she is being argumentative.

    I'm sorry for her/him, having to deal with a disability in a world that others take as normal, but Muzzy seems to fail to understand the argument that running with an iPod marginally increases your risk of having an accident. But that risk is down to personal choice, as is deciding to sprint across a road in front of traffic, running solo in remote areas etc.

    We all take decisions based on our perceived risk of what we are doing, and it is down to personal choice.

  • Sorry you feel like that Scotish Mike image. Don't let other people spoil your enjoyment.

    As a track and cross country based athlete I don't race much on the road and haven't realy experienced much in the way of the "Ipod stagger" and didn't realy give it much, if any thought.

    I first came across an Ipod thread on this forum a few months ago when I wanted some advice on headphones for running in the gym. I read a few posts and couldn't believe that people were saying that their hearing was not impeded by having an Ipod on during a race, durrrrrrrr.

    I have gone from being a,"not having an opinion" to being firmly against Ipods in races, based, not on experience but on the opinions of Ipod wearers who believe that having headphones with music does not impede awareness or hearing.

    when in training do what you like, but in races guys .................. come on.

  • On a tangent realy but, it was on another Ipod thread I learnt that some people take their phones with them when they race, wtf is that all aboutimage

  • I've yet to see someone running with a laptop, who knows though!!
  • I initially started running without music and was quiet happy with that as I didn't know anything else. I loved listening to the birds, sound of the wind rustling trees, cows etc.

    Then along came Ipods and I got into the craze. 3 ipods later I finally settled with Ipod shuffle and thought I'd never be able to run without an Ipod again. Infact the few times I ran with friends I actually became quite irritated that I didn't have my Ipod (sounds sad doesn't it.)

    I haven't worn Ipods in marathons and races and managed fine but a part of me really wanted my music. My running had become synonymous with listening to music. I also didn't like my tempo would change according to which song I was listening to or how I'd get annoyed at a song I no longer liked or didn't fancy hearing that day.

    BTW I never one to run with loud music blaring, I could always hear cars, bicycles etc. 

    But finally oneday I decided to go running without my ipod and it wasn't nearly so bad as I thought it'd be. Hearing nature once more was amazing and I felt much more intune with my surroundings.

    I loved it and I haven't gone back to my ipod since. 

    My shuffle looks rather sad on desk these days untouched for ages!!! 

  • Just come back from a long run without my ipod (partly bad planning - partly because of this nutter around Glasgow at the moment) and I MISSED it.

    I think I equate running with dancing- when I run with my music it feels almost like a dance - and that is one of the reasons I like it so much.

    I do think in a short race - you don't really need it but I will use one if its a quiet race. But for a half marathon or a marathon where folks like me take so very long to finish - it just really helps with the boredom.  

    And honestly if someone comes on and then says that i shouldn't bother running marathons if I get a little bit bored now and again - I will seriously scream.  Can some folks not just live and let live. Some of us like music some prefer not to have it.  It doesn't make you a bad person if you prefer to run with music and it also doesn't make you a bad runner.  Taking the moral highground over something like this is just a tad ott.

    I am sure I read somewhere in this discussion the sentiment that if you need music to run then you shouldnt bother running !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I mean, honestly. 

  • I've really tried hard to stay out of this debate because there (for some odd reason) some very very strong views on the subject. But i've weakened, here goes.

    There are some posts that seem to be trying to belittle, bully and force a standpoint onto runners who don't agree in one way or another. This might not be intentional but perception is reality.

    For instance, you might not like or agree with something.......fair enough. But WHY should i subscribe to that when i have another equal and valid opinion.

    A couple of points to clear up a few things from my personal standpoint.......
    1. I have an opinion although it's not important what it is because that's all it is, an opinion.

    2. If the rules say no pods then that's pods, respect the rules, no debate.

    3. Most of us are recreational runners, we're not trying to sort out Mugabes regime or solve the global economic crisis, (300 posts on  ipods in this thread alone!!!). Is this normal ???

    4. In life we encourage a live and let live attitude, i think we need to bear this in mind guys, it works.

    Sits back and waits for a hammering !!!

    Stay healthy all and enjoy your running image (BTW i'm running the Syoke 1/2 tomorrow without a pod)

  • Its clearly a preference issue isnt it? I mean athletes probably run without music so they can hear there breathing??? I like running with music (off road) as it somehow breaks the monotony of it. When I'm doing half mar. then I run without music as I do need to focus on breathing and rhythm otherwise I find I hammer it at the beginning then am knackered by the end. image

     Also I have learnt to indentify when my exhaustion sets in, by noting how I react to people in my way - if I'm good then they dont bother me, If I'm knackered then I hear myself muttering to myself something along the lines of  " asshole" or "twat" 

    The other day, this guy saw me and decided to pull out of a junction right in front of me, almost staged! He then, one day a guy didnt indicate as I looked for his blinkers, but then cut right on front of me going a good 30mph he literally missed me by hairline....

     Well I really dont have anything to add to this debate.


  • ABAB, good points well made

    but it has left me with one of those unanswerable questions .................................

    If Mugabe were a runner do you see him as an

    • Ipod wearer all the time
    • Ipod training but not in races
    • Ipod in the gym only
    • You would never catch him with an Ipod 
  • PM...There is no way Mugabe is a runner...he's an evil despot that needs to be urgently removed from his job and held accountable for the torture, death and starvation of millions.
  • Pizza Man

    Mugabe wouldn't need to run a race! He'd simply claim victory by disqualifying everyone else as they couldn't run because his thugs had beeten them up.  He'd also steel their iPods and blame the British government for it.

  • LOL MC, or he'll say that all Ipod's are part of western colonialists conspiring against him!!!
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