Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
Tuesday 6th January
I got my rock moves
What: Weights d&d / Circuits/core pm
Why: non-running day for the week
Last hard: ?
Last rest: 2 days
I really enjoyed some of the discussions we had before Christmas, so fancy restarting them?
If so, how about the following quote from The Lore or Running: "....the great distance runners of the future will...... ....cope with short periods of very high-intensity peaking training, of the intensities achieved by these [Peters, Edelen, Elliott, Jones, and currently the Kenyans] great runners". i.e. as a departure from the traditional marathon training as 'sold' by RW, etc, of play it safe and get to the line, the view that you've got to take a risk if you want to exploit your potential.....
So get to the line 'slightly' undertrained or take a chance on getting there at your complete peak?
Have a good day folks, will read back later.
The materials in this website are in no way intended to replace the professional medical care, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a doctor, qualified personal trainer, therapist, dietitian or nutritionist Runners's World, Part of the Hearst UK well-being network © Copyright 2017
Comments
Hi TT, would like to join in the debate, but work dictates otherwise!
Yesterday's lyrics were, as Mike S said late last night, Part of the Union by the Strawbs.
Today's lyrics: nope
What: another 20 mins steady later if I can stand up...last night's run was very slippery
Why: keeping ticking over
Last hard: 2/1
Last rest: 24/12
Morning all,
What: 8 miles minkseasy d&d
Why: try to get to the line not as unprepared as I could be
Last hard: ?
Last rest: friday
Lyrics: sound familiar
TT - it's risk and reward I guess. For the Kenyans they have to cut it fine as otherwise they are 'yet another good Kenyan' while for europeans/americans they get bombarded 'the next great hope' by finishing top 10 in a city marathon.
Morning peeps.
What: Yesterday 4M, today 4.5 M.
Both steady runs.Heavy frost up here, lovely morning for running.
Shiva: Welcome.
AF: Hope you've a quick recovery.
Have a good one peeps.
morning all
Freezing here in Leeds. Had a fall from the bike on the canal tow path when another cyclist unexpectedly popped out of a tunnel. Would have been OK except that I was braking and turning on a patch of ice
AF - bad news about your injury. Hoping for a swift recovery.
What: 24 miles cycle, interval session at club pm
Why: cycle training, speed work
Next hard: the stick I'm going to get at the club tonight for mucking up my relay changeover.
good morning all.
Another very brief visit from me between meetings and urgent bits and pieces.
What: 2 miles done very carefully on icy pavements
Why: getting the legs moving again
Last hard: just trying to stay upright at the moment.
The new router is apparently sitting at the local post office but we can't collect until tomorrow.
Have a good day all.
3-8 at lunchtime
1-3 + circuits PM
Gym - chest and back PM
Why: I'll tell you why
Last hard: Sprints last night.
Maximal efforts off walk back recoveries 4 x 3 x 45/70/90 with 2 mins between sets. Sharkie would have loved it.
TT, I actually think your question is too clean cut as there is a middle ground that allows you to get to the line and be improving. Maybe you are not maximising full potential 1st time out but continual improvement over time + a stronger more resilliant body = good results over time.
The fact is on RW and Fetch people either want it all NOW or just want to take part.
Back from the fizz. She reckons it's a soft tissue injury between the IT Band and the hamstring insertion, so the good news is it should heal fairly quickly, the bad news is no exercise at all for a week to let everything settle down.
TT: I'm in the get to the line at your complete peak camp, but as I'm currently experiencing, it has it's down-side. I think the actual problem is knowing when to back off so you don't cross the line and end up over-trained or injured. But if I knew that, I'd be posting training today not rest and misery.
Lyric - spookily a guy here has been humming that song all morning...
Podro - ouch , hope you're OK..
Good subject for debate - and the point Imski makes on 'elites' is a valid one. Slightly disagree with your last point Gobi - there is a middle ground - although I think there is certainly some validity in wanting more now than one is prepared to put the work in for (says the voice of experience).
I'm older and hopefully a little wiser insofar as I know the difference between what is achievable and what could be achieved when I get to the start line. Further, I like to think I know what to do to make the improvements, yet for the bulk of runners I would suggest that we achive the best we can within the parameters our 'outside' lives allow, but - and this is where I agree with Gobi - we're always looking for the shortcut.
Training - Club night - speedwork
Why - there are no shortcuts....
Laters
Imski - that's a good point. Perception plays a key part in it. In Kenya you would be just another good runner. Elsewhere you'd be considered excellent.
Gobi - yes, that is a fair point. A lot of people want instant gratification or to just take part (obviously that's fine, it's a personal choice). However, in this case, what I meant was not getting to the start-line first (or even second time) out ready to run to your utmost potential, but more about getting there ready to run at the peak of what you are capable of at that time.
Basically, as you've said, continual improvement over time will mean a stronger more resilient body and good results over time (and peaking for races won't prevent that, if anything it will help it), but at a snapshot in time (in this case a mara) do you want those results to be the best they can be, or do you play it safe, accept you will not have peaked and therefore run a little slower. If you get to the line and are still improving (which is obviously a good thing, and better than the 'holding what you've got approach'), then you haven't brought yourself to a peak, so relative to your theoretical peak, are you not therefore slightly undertrained?
Surely, at the end of a race if you want to say, hand on heart, that that was a fair representation of your ability at that time you've got to take a chance on the intense peaking process?
Morning
AF: Good news but I wouldn't want to be in your household for the next week.
What: 7 miles d & d at MP (7-45 min/miles before you ask TT)
Why: Taking a chance and getting to the line at my peak
Last Hard: Last nights club run which was at 10K pace
Last rest: 59 days
TT: of course you are right, or was it Noakes who was right? We can run a particular race (any distance) at a pace and effort level that we calculate to be optimal. In this way we can knock out a series of good results and think that we've peaked. However, it is sometimes worth taking a risk and toeing the line in the belief that we can do something special today. This attitude results in a series of spectacular failures punctuated with some spectacular successes. If we don't try, we'll always be left with that nagging question, could I have done better or hit that magic target?
As has often been said, the marathon is a cruel mistress, but it is clear to see that the 100m is as well.
I'll report back later, if, as, or when I've done some training. I was pleased to report a bit of DOMS this morning.
AF - sounds positive from the fizz. Fingers x-ed it clears quickly. Yes, there is always the potential for injury. I think you've got to accept that if you're going to follow the intense peaking approach. If you're prepared to pick just one or two races a year though, then you really want to get to the line in optimal condition (though I accept that some would equally just want to make sure they toed the line in something resembling top nick for the same reasons).
DD - lol. To borrow a phrase, Nice
Dustin - Agree. Shortcuts will invariably find you out in the end. A lot of what you've said ties in with what AF said. You've got to be able to read your own body to know what is achievable, both generally, and on the day and to stay injury-free.
Gobi - Add some (P)MP pace work/threshold, etc to the taper and you're sorted
Blisters - I'll give Noakes the credit. I just agree with him.... Given that I ran an approx. 15min +ive split in '07, I am not afraid of spectacular failures
Afternoon
What: 5/6M run and 12M Cycling
Why: Club Night
Last Hard: Most of the last few days
Last rest: 6 days
AF - Glad it sounds like a quick fix.
afternoon all
happy new year to you guys!
af, pretty good news really, pleased for you
podro hope you didn't get too many bruises
what: mob match later round well st common, may need ice skates!
why: tradition
last hard: sunday 10 mile xctry, but so so good
last easy: 30/12 - lurgy!
take care all
Afternoon,
I'm definitely a "middle of the pack" runner and, in a race, the only person I am competing with is really myself. I don't enter races to post times that will get me across the line in the prizes. I enter races because they provide motivation to keep me training. In these circumstances, and also wholeheartedly agreeing with Dustin's point about the non-running parts of our lives, I'm personally more interested, and more motivated, by seeing continuous and gradual improvements than I am by risking it all to achieve my full potential. (I'm also scared of pain, so would prefer to be under-trained than injured). I guess our reasons for running have an influence. Realistically, I am always going to be slightly under-trained - I can't give running the time (and I'm not sure I want to) to get me to my full potential. I know that, but that doesn't frustrate me, because that's how running fits into my life.
What: 5M with 3M tempo
Why: marathon training
Last hard: just done it
Last rest: Saturday
Target for today's 3M tempo was 22.30. So, I was pleasantly surprised to discover I did it in 21.30. Wonder what I could do it in if I ran to full potential...
TT - good topic. I agree with Gobi on gradually building up resilience with time and once that is in place as a safety net, pushing the boat out harder becomes possible. Listening to your body and knowing your body is key .... and it takes time to figure out how to do this.
Blisters - fun to hear about your bounce back ! The nice thing is your times will quickly improve again.
What:- 10 min warm up, 6 x 5 min tempo with 90 sec recovery, 10 min call down. A good session.
Desert Man: How about this then?
Yesterday 6.5 miles in 58 minutes
Today same 6.5 miles in 52 minutes. If anything it was icier today.
I've got this feeling that my grumbling knee might be to do with the lack of stretching coincident with the lack of running.
TAPER FOR A MARATHON - I'd have to actually care about a marathon to be bothered to even try that, just not that important to me. That said I have taken about 50 mins off my Marathon since 2005.
G :¬)
Interesting topic: for the runners to whom RW style schedules are 'sold', the stategy is pretty much one of high intensity peaking for a short period. Typically they are either starting from scratch or from 2 or 3 short runs a week, may be 15-20ml, so getting up to say a peak of 40ml and training for 12 weeks, then going back to a few miles a week till next Jan. Isn't this much the same as a 60mpw runner peaking at double ie 120ml. Another way of looking at it, in my practise, I see far more newbie runners with injuries caused by suddenly increased training where that training is to what I think off as ridiculously low mileage, ie they have tried to peak too quickly, rather tahn race undertrained.
Then again, I've found that I can't hold 90mpw+ for very long, mentally rather than physically. Going out for a second run when I get back from work at 9.30 is OK for a few weeks, but not all year. And some years when I have builtup the mileage too early I've lost the plot in m head too soon, so the plan this year is to be fairly laid back till 13-14 weeks out, so I still get in 3 blocks of 3 weeks hard, plus 1 easy week, then 2 weeks taper.
AS for ready to run to the peak of what you are capable of at the time, isn't this more about race strategy than training ? As Blisters says, do you go for a time which your training has shown is only just possible, but risk crashing or settle for an achieveable softer target ? I think this can vary from race to race eg I can understand that DD wants 3:30 this time, but having achieved it perhaps the next marathon would be an opportunity to reach out for a time which maybe seems impossible. I have often aimed at unrealistic targets. Once it worked, really really well ...... lots of times it hasn't. At Florence this year, I'd set my sights a lot lower, and that seemed to work better for me.
What: I wonder
Why: I could go out now and do something on grass, but I'll probably wait to go to my unusual sess at the Uni, except that the track will probably be frozen, so we will have to do reps of the ring road. This will be fine if it was gritted and the ice has melted, or may be v slippery. There again coach may get us to go to one of the parks, if it is light enough !
T
What: 5miles up a big hill.
Why: Strengthening.
Its very cold out there - had to tread carefully over several patches of ice...
I have a motto that I use for a lot of things in life - "Its better to regret something you've done than regret something you haven't!". If you are motivated by race performance then you should train as hard as you can (life and body permitting) and race the best race you can given your training. Maybe we should take an occasional race and aim for that 'unattainable' target and push yourself to see where it takes you...
Have a good day all
AF - a week is a long time in .... ?
running!
you'll be surprised how quickly it can actually go if you keep your mind on other things and if you get away with one week then you won't have lost much. here's to next wdenesday !
i was flickinh through latest RW before and there is a pic of a lady doing the aquajogging a lot more elegantly than me but she was wearing the belt the other way around. no wonder i go backwards when i try swimming
original plan was club training tonight but i decided on safety grounds to go out on the fields in daylight instead and got a very pleasant 6 miles in. ventured onto the lane at one point but it was treacherous.
it's all very pretty but it's a bit impractical and it felt like at least a hundred below zero thi morning.
go safely ..
What: 2.x miles
Why: keeping up the daily running but gently.
Last hard: last thursday?
Last rest: Dec.
In the training and peaking debate, I am at the moment def. in it just to take part and that suits me right now. I've met some nice folks this way, and over time I intend to increase things a bit. However, it would be most foolish of me to chase an arbitrary time target as that will lead me straight to injury. I still have to build up a serious resilience which some of you have done over years of hard training, so I am not deluding myself on that count.
It is nice to see how all different abilities of runners mix on the DTT, and it motivates me no end. We've all got a story that can serve as an example (even if it is don't do as I did, lol!)
AF: a week of no running. I know I'd be knitting lace shawls to take my mind off it, but I know it's not given to everyone to be interested in creating holes with a piece of string and two sticks. You have my sympathy.
Good plan Clink...I've just ditched a run after quarter of an hour...tried to run off raod whilst still light, but very rutted and pavements are turning nasty. Difficult for those following heavy schedules, unless like Gobi and others the dreadmill beckons.
AF: news is not as bad as it could have been!
No time still to enter today's debate...off out for a meal to celebrate my youngest children's (yes, twins) birthdays: aged 19. Must have been very young when I fathered them!
Greetings all
Hope you are back soon AF, could have been worse as other have said, try and enjoy a rest.
I am coming into mara trg of a good base of 40-45 mpw and feel ready for what the schedule gives me (I hope)
What - 8m (ave 8:13mm)
Why - Schedule (was meant to be rest day but have had to change due to work comittments so brought thurs forward)
Last Hard - Sat
Last Rset - Sun
Take care all
AF - glad it's nothing too serious - enjoy the time off, get massage, do your stretches and work on your flexibility, stuff that you probably don't have time to do normally.
TT - I like a good discussion too. I think most people are restricted by life/work/family in general. We are all stars in our dreams, reality hits hard. It's tough out there. I'm in the camp of doing as much as I can and saying this is as good as I am at the moment - let's get out there and have a go.
If we waited until we thought, yes, I'm at the stage of doing great things, we'd always be training. I broke 3hrs on my 3rd marathon in the same year - 1978. The 3rd marathon, I had a schedule and really stuck to it, and the actual marathon was the easy bit.
I think it is easier for the person who might have a chance at winning something to stick to their training and achieve their goals, as they are really going to be rewarded for their efforts. I have dnfed 7 marathons after pushing the boat out too hard. My main problem being - always wanting to do stuff when I'm not really ready. I remember singing to myself on the way to a race one day, "I'm going to fly like an eagle". My husband said, "You're going to scurry like a rat". He was right"
Balance is the key. But there are no prizes for the best trainers in the world.
What: A pathetic run around the block. Just too tired. I had the gkids to look ater too, so did some stuff with them, before heading out for a mamoth session in the garden.
Good running everyone.
Evening
Alehouse/NZC - Happy birthday to your respective children
nice lively topic going on to alas i have nthing to add. But agree its a fine line between running with injury and inury itself. Agree also that sometimes you have to go for it see what you are made of
AF - Sounds positive hope you are back running in a week
I went to gym today as part of my new years resolution is to use the concept 2 twice a week
so used the treadmill while i was there
What: 5km run/2km Row/5km Run all easy
Why: Easy day
Last Hard: Sunday
Podro - sympathies for the bike fall, did the other rider stop to pick you up?
I've come to the conclusion that I'm going a bit soft in my old age (well, at 35 anyway, so not that old) as I'm actually preferring to run indoors now instead instead of freezing my extremities off in this glorious British winter! When the weather improves, I may change my mind but the indoors environment of the gym is far more appealing at the present.
What: 5M in 40mins on the treadmill (maybe i should change my name?)
Why: too cold and treacherous to run outdoors
Last hard: trying to stay upright on my driveway this morning.
Last rest: yesterday
Lyrics: as ever, they sound familiar but can't think of who.
AF - sympathies for the injury, keep positive and it'll all fall back into place, hopefully. You're best off not being out in this weather anyway.
tinebeest - well done on the daily running plan. I managed 4 weeks of consecutive days running in 2005 when I was really doing well. I did 3-4M at a time and only at 70% effort and then went on to shatter my 1500m, 5k, 5M and eventually 10k PBs. If you remember to stretch, maybe you won't get as many back problems as I did in this period! Good luck!