Marathon race plan

Cartman

How do you come up with a decent marathon race plan that ;

a) ideally gets you around your planned time
b) stops you blowing up in the last 10k (e.g. using too many carbs in the first 3-4 miles)

Currently I am thinking of using a plan produced by ;

http://zzbox.com/marathonperfect

Have anybody used it before ? does it make sense ?

[Deleted User]

We had a bit of a debate on this over on the training forum. I ran 16-20 miles 7 or 8 times before london this year (at slower or at marathon pace). I avoided the 'wall' for the first time in 5 attempts but still had to run slower than planned and dropped from 48 mins 10Ks to 54 mins in the final 10K. Not great to have to lose 6 mins in the final 10K but better than my previous efforts....... I think the key is to run 2 or 3 20 milers at a pace quicker than marathon pace. If I ever do another marathon then I will concentrate on this.

Nessie

Had a look at the calculator thingy, Cartman, and it looks good. How you are supposed to remember it all during the race is another matter. You could write it on your arm, but the way I sweat, it'd all be gone by half way.

Starting slower and very gradually speeding up is good advice though.

Helegant

Had a look, and it's on a different planet to me.

It suggested running the first mile at a heart rate of 118, which is a physical impossibility, and went on from there, with a finish time of 8 seconds faster than I achieved at FLM. If I could run at 118 I'd finish a LOT quicker than that!

Guess that's the problem with on-line stuff, no room for individuality.

[Deleted User]

Me too PB. There is no way I could start slow and get faster unless I started so slow my time would be much slower than it is now....All my other PBs from 5K to 20 miles have all been set with negative splits....but marathon....nar...no way...BUT some people on here have done it.....

Cartman

I have never tried negative splits in a marathon, but the last one a did I hit the wall BIG time. I had set out to do 8min 30 miles, which I managed to 16 miles and then things went down hill BIG style resulting in a 12 min 30sec mile (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) at 22. At this point, I decided that walking might actually be faster than trying to run :-/.

Looking back my training was not good enough(not intense enough and no real speed work), and I went out far to quickly (first mile in a stupid 7min 30sec). So this time I am going to try negative splits (aiming for a 3hr 15min) and see how I get on. It can't be any worse than last time (I hope :-/)

The MARCO plan seems sensible enough to me (i.e. it stops you going out too fast), and if things get tough later on, then I just won't speed up anymore.

Tmap

Sorry to keep going on about the New York web site, but there's a good race strategy guide there - http://www.nyrrc.org/divisions/training/marathonstrat.html

[Deleted User]

I'm with Tim on this. The best laid plans... I tried to devise a strategy for pacing at FLM this year but ended up simply trying to keep track of the pacer, and that too failed miserably as I got so tired in the closing stages of the race. So I ended up using the wristband I'd made as a guide. I think you have to be incredibly disciplined to stick to a set strategy and besides so much turns on what happens on the day. For example it was hot, and I hadn't anticipated the reality of so many runners in narrow streets. If you stick behind you get frustrated and boxed in - if you weave in and out you run twice as far. So you need to plan for this as well if it's a big race. I will still do one for future runs but will treat it as a guide rather than an absolute.

Twin Dad Twice

Negative splits can really work, but you've got to be really determined to hold your pace back and not panic. I managed to run negative splits for the first time in this year's Paris Marathon.

It was my 4th attempt at sub-4 (9.09/mile). In the previous 3 marathons I'd hit the wall badly around 17/18 miles and slowed by up to 2 mins a mile.

In Paris though, I started off slower than target pace, hit target pace sowewhere round the middle and finished quicker than target pace. Here's the splits:

10K 1:01.06 (9.49/mile)
20K 0:57.57 (9.19/mile)
30K 0:50.24 (8.07/mile)
40K 0:52.16 (8.25/mile)
42.2K 0:11.30 (8.25/mile)

Finish 3:59.33
1st half 2:05.23
2nd half 1:54.10

Didn't hit wall and passed over 6000 runners in the last 12K - the confidence it gives you is incredible.

A year previously in FLM2002 I ran the first 10K in 0:54.45 but hit the wall and slowed badly to finish in 4:16.50.

I'd say...the best thing to do is try it in training. I ran my all long runs as negative splits and tried for an average sub-4 pace. (This was a great tip from Drew.) I also did lots of speed and tempo work in training at faster than marathon pace so that when the Big Day came the pace seemed much more manageable. Seemed to work! Good luck!

Cartman

Peter, that NY marathon site has some excellent advice thanks !

I think the main challenge will be to keep the pace slow for the first 16 miles. Recently I have done a 16 mile race in negative splits (1hr for first 8 then 54 for second 8), and a 22 mile training run ( 57 minutes for first 7.33, 54 minutes for 2nd 7.33, and 53 minutes for 3rd 7.33)

I think if I find somebody to talk to for the first 13 miles then that will stop me running too quickly...

[Deleted User]

Has anyone read any decent scientific research on "the wall"?

I would be very suprised if there wasn't a huge psychological side to this. When you get that far into a race you start convincing yourself that you can't maintain your pace and need to slow.

Just curious

Gareth

[Deleted User]

Re Nessie's point about carrying the information around the course. Well, you could create
a wrist band. [trying this direct link process for the first time - hope it works!!]

I did that in the last 2 years at the FLM.

[Deleted User]

Yes!

[Deleted User]

Well, kind of! Another try:

create a wrist band

[Deleted User]

Better !

Gavo

Meant to carry one of those around London but forgot. If you aim for a time, say sub-4, then your average mile time is around 9 mins. That's what I did anyway so any slower miles (toilet breaks that sort of thing) can be made up by just shaving 10 secs or so off the next few miles depending upon time lost.

On my 1st marathon, my plan was just to complete without stopping and time was relatively immaterial. Once I knew that I could complete, I could go for a time & strategise from there.

Cartman

Wow, the wristband thing is way cool !! But unfortunetly it is a steady pace, and I don't want to do that.

Still I am sure a few moments spent in Microsoft Word and I can fashion something together..

[Deleted User]

God that felt good... here's what it told me:



ERROR #102 - zzBox Responder


Are you really that fast? You have indicated on the previous page that you run 42.195 km in 2:24:59 . This is very good. Unfortunately, the Marathon Calculator is not suitable to compute such fast running time values and would only give impractical results.

Please use your Back button, check your inputs and re-submit the form.

Thanks,
The zzBox Team


...thanks for a morale boost better than any strategies... :-)