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Schmunkee - i thought that the Bupa course was really good for PB potential, i and a all the other people who i knew who ran it got pb's. we did all start in the appropriate waves though. I don't think that trying in a smaller event is necessarily the only place to go for a PB, why should I not be able to try for one just because it is a big event?
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I was thinking of another post, Schmunkee, and in particular the comment that "if I'd encountered this snobbish attitude when I first started, I probably would have given up at the start."
That kind of talk annoys me because if there is one thing running is not, it's elitist and snobbish. In actual fact, in all my 10 years of racing I have never seen anyone disparaged for being slow or at the back of the field. Quite the reverse. On the very rare occasions it has happened on this forum, the perpetrator has been slapped down quickly. This thread is not about that.
It's possible for an event like this to be both a mass-participation event AND allow runners to achieve PBs - IF people start in the appropriate places.
That's all that is required, and if people don't understand about the starting positions, they should ask.
The instructions that came with the race I did yesterday, and the one I'm doing next, tell you about lining up according to your estimated finishing time.
It's quite straightforward - as a 55 minute 10k runner, I go towards the back of the start, to keep out of the way of faster runners.
Muttley - Thanks for explanation. Hope people don't think you were quoting me!
And we have resolved the use of the word 'elitist'
KK - There were 'faster' runners in the slower pens forcing their way to the front. by runing between people by the kerb and the railings. Using Wilkie's point about info being in the runners pack, if the start time is advertised, why start getting into the pens after the starting gun has gone off.
So yes, people are to blame (if 'blame' is to be apportioned). I think we are now agreeing the point (as thread has digressed a tad) but using opposites to put our view across and that's clouding the waters.
Muttley, Chris - both of you have missed the point I was making completely.
Yes, it's MILDLY annoying when people start too far forward. My point was, that when you enter mass participation races, you're inevitably going to get beginners, first timers and charity fun runners who don't understand what the race etiquette is and might start too far forward.
I just think you should cut these guys some slack, like I said at least they're having a go, and to be fair they're often the ones who are more likely to be raising money for charity than the more "serious" runners.
Because these races are open to everyone, they attract more runners, more spectators, raise more money and have a better atmosphere than your standard club race. That's the reason the races like the GNR and London Marathon are so popular and get so much coverage. You have to balance that against the fact you might encounter inexperienced runners who might not get their start position right. Yes, it's annoying but if it gets to you that much, then stick to club races.
When someone who has never raced before makes the effort to get out there and do it; it's out of order to start having a go at them for not knowing what they're doing or not having the right gear. To me, that actually does smack of elitism, goes against the spirit of these races and is an attitude does nothing for the sport.
Melodra,
just because it is a mass event is no reason to have the level of etiquette decided by those with the least knowledge.
I have been at plenty of company golf matches and footie matches where newbies would understand they need to follow rules and not spoil things. I have never seen people turn up and please themselves
It seems to be a different rule for running where people can turn up abd behave as they wish - just because it is a mass event they can act as they wish
My very first race was the Great North Run. I hadn't been running long, knew nothing about racing whatever, and when I turned up at the start and saw the pens I wasn't sure where I belonged. I asked for advice and took it, meaning that I started in the appropriate pen, didn't get in anyone's way, and met some nice people who were running at the same pace as me.
It's not rocket science, and anyone could made that small effort to find out how a race works. If they can't be bothered to do that, they can't be surprised if others are hacked off at them.
It's not elitism, it's just asking for common courtesy.
Surely its just about good manners isnt it???? I'm always the slower bugger , but if the race starts i do try and get to the back , otherwise i get to the side and outta the way. BUT i will say this, at the first chance 10 k as EVERYBODY was lapping me not one of em said get outta the way , they all shouted encourgement ( excuse the spelling ) . But again manners work both ways................. dont they???
So with that said , if you're in a multi lap race, and you catch the back markers up, are you gonna moan about them????? Or show your worth and push em on????
KK - my last post was an abbreviation of an earlier one. I watched these people turn up after the gun had gone off wearing earlier bibs - hence my referral to Wilkie's point about race info. I can appreciate that public transport may well have lead them to turning up late, but is there any need to push passed (past) any runner (regardless of each's speed) between the kerb and the railings just to get ahead.
This is why I am saying that I think we are in agreement about people being to blame, but are using different sides of the same coin to prove our point.
Edit - realise I had asked why they started entering pens after gun had gone off and after further thought conceded that may be beyond their control, hence why it may seem as though I am changing tack. Given them the benefit of the doubt re public transport it still does not excuse the pushing through, in my opinion
Schmunkee - No, they are most definitely not. Or rather, no they definitely should not be. Sadly, this is exactly what is wrong with the big running "events" in this country today, and the situation is getting worse. Sadly the media portray that there are only two types of runners - the "elite", and "fun runners" raising money for their favourite charity (preferably in a costume). Running has been "hijacked" by charity and as such the experience in the big events for the mid-pack runner has been diminished.
As I pay my entry fee I am entitled to have a race experience where I can realise my goals. I do not expect to be held up by people who do not have the common courtesy to start in a place suited to their abilities. Why should I be "forced" away from the bg events to realise my ambitions? However, this is what has happened. The big events are now marketed more as "charity events" rather than races.
My half-marathon PB is 1:37:56. I'm a mid-pack runner. I've ran Great North Run twice (never again, although I understand the start is better organised these days). My best there is 1:59 - OK, i wasn't at 1:37 form that day, but possibly 1:42, so I lost 17 minutes in 13.1 miles due to being badly obstructed by people who started in front of me despite me starting in the correct place.
I was particularly unimpressed by those muppets who started well in front of me but were walking arm-in-arm, six abreast after less than 3 miles. I did sarcastically thank them for holding me up as I went by, but was informed, "it's not a race, it's for charity". And here I was thinking I'd entered a running race. how wrong I was.......
Typical.
'I just think you should cut these guys some slack, like I said at least they're having a go, and to be fair they're often the ones who are more likely to be raising money for charity than the more "serious" runners.'
Where has this thought come from that you're more worthwhile in a race if you are running for bloody charity?
I run for me, I have done 2 charity runs out of my many races, and I feel I've done my bit.
I don't give a shit what charity you are running for, how much you are raising, or what hilarious costume you are wearing if you get in my way.
Not every hobby has this hellbent money raising aim does it? I don't see the sunday footballers playing centre back wearing a gorilla costume, or strolling down the wing as they're raising money.
Apologies, rant over for now.
Some people on this thread take themselves far too seriously.
Personally I run and race because I enjoy it. I actually prefer the larger races to club races. They tend to have a fantastic atmosphere and it's good to see people of all levels and abilities getting involved and everyone having a great time.
If I get a pb, that's great; if I get held up a bit by having to weave, then I'm not going to go home and cry into my pillow about it - at the end of the day it's really not that important - there's always another day.
I can't see the point of such an aggressive, fiercely competitive attitude. Running and racing is supposed to be something that's ENJOYED.
LOL though LWJ. You're a harsh lot
Well said Mr Bump <gives standing ovation>
It's a bit rich to accuse the mid-pack runners of this country of elitism, just because we ask for courtesy from other participants.
I've never had anything but courtesy and consideration from faster runners. I've often met the muppets Mr Bump refers to, and had them refuse to move over even a tad to give me room to get by.
"When someone who has never raced before makes the effort to get out there and do it; it's out of order to start having a go at them for not knowing what they're doing or not having the right gear. To me, that actually does smack of elitism, goes against the spirit of these races and is an attitude does nothing for the sport." (Melodra)
Who said anything about not having the right gear? That's completely irrelevant. I'm not "having a go" at them for not knowing what they're doing, just mildly naffed off that they don't bother to find out the established procedures, or etiquette, and instead insist on imposing their own rules.
I repeat, because you clearly missed it the first time round - it's not about speed, it's about behaviour, about courtesy to others.
I was a beginner once. Guess what I did at my first race? (Clue - it's a page or two back).
(Have written and re-written once or twice attempting to get the tone right and use the right words, but I will still apologise upfront if any person is upset by either) And this is not directed at anyone in particular - just putting forward my views.
All I am trying to say is that there are just as many inconsiderate 'faster' runners out there as I have mentioned in my previous posts.
This is a topic that runs and runs (excuse the pun) all the time. I stuck my head up over the parapet this morning to point out that I have experienced inconsiderate 'faster' runners,
At an event such as Bupa London 10,000 you will have people of all abilities. If you are a 'faster' runner and an event such as this was your first, then of course, you would not have realised this happens and I sympathise if that has hindered any personal progression or affected your enjoyment of the event.
However, experience of these events will show you that such a thing is commonplace (as borne out by the numerous threads on this topic) and unfortunately I don't think it will ever change. So you have a choice 1) either enter the race knowing that there will be people who have exaggerated their finishing times and all the encumbent problems that may put you to or 2) find a smaller race where there is not the emphasis on charity/fun run.
I know this is not an ideal solution and I appreciate the potential argument of 'If I pay my money and I am doing it right, then why can't everyone else', but the world is not like that.
Is there no harm in asking/shouting 'coming through' if you want to pass people walking side by side.
And above all, the point I am making is there are two sides to the coin. I repeat, I have encountered inconsiderate 'faster' runners, just as you have experienced inconsiderate 'slower' runners. LIke I keep saying, I think we are agreeing, but using opposing views to put these views across.
I think there are some relevant words in the following...
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference
Schmunkee: Is there no harm in asking/shouting 'coming through' if you want to pass people walking side by side.
I had to do just that in Sunday's Half. Narrow path through country park at about 5 ish miles, and I came up to 4 walkers spread across the path. Now I'm slow (2:25 PB for Half) but they must have started out way ahead of me for me to only be passing them at 5 miles. They looked llike they were on a Sunday morning stroll rather than being in a race. First time I've ever had to alert people to me lumbering past them!
And don't get me started on how long it took to get through to the iPlodders that there was an ambulance trying to get past a bit further up the route. I was gratified that she yelped as I bellowed in her ear from a distance of about 10"
Oh, and you wouldn't believe the number of times I've yelled "coming through", "may I get past please", "could you move over a bit" and variants thereof, to be totally ignored or stared at as if I was speaking Ancient Greek.
Melodra
1. I am not a member of a club,so not sure what you mean by club race..
2. As far as I am aware there are 1000s of races open to everyone, so why are you saying that people who have never run an organised race only enter the larger races and therefore any naivety is ok....seems you expect the majority of sensible people to make exception to the minority.....I don't understand that in runing this seems ok to you....if I learnt to ski, then went out on the hardest slope in a t-shirt everyone would shout 'fool' but in a race where all pay the same,it is deemed understandable to not use your noggin....priceless argument