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Agree with Nessie, i won't quibble about a few quid here and there.
What I want to know is why the NY marathon costs $200+?!! I'd want an extremely large bagel in my goodie bag for that sort of wonga. Supply and demand I suppose, cos I still want to do it.
If you think its a rip off - dont pay it, simple
. The races vary from free cross country races to very expensive races organised by companies, the difference is that these companies have to make a profit to pay the wages of the people who work for them.
The high profile events encourage new runners to take part who then find the smaller local races, most newcomers will NOT enter a local race for fear of coming last, in a large field of entrants they are more likely to have people of similar abilities and unlikely to come last.
I have been running for about 6 years now and only found out this year that there are three local races!! they are NOT advertised anywhere so not sure how they still carry on. The large events have extensive costs and these can vary substantially from area to area.
Anyone who has ran the runliverpool events will now that Alan published his costs for the half marathon last year and also the fact that Liverpool City council charge 10 times the amount for a road closure order that Wirral charge.
If you think road running is expensive you want to try triathlon and particularly ironman.
RFL is pretty expensive for what it is, but from the number of women it encourages to get into running, it should be seen as an investment in being fitter. it got me running and it got my very large best mate running.
Appreciate that most of the stuff in goodie bags is donated and free advertising. However most races that have them will use them to try to entice more runners to enter, and I'm sure they use them as a justification for hiking the entry fee a bit - "They won't mind paying a bit more if they get a goody bag!"
And many runners fall for it! There are often threads on here with people either showing off about how good a goody bag was, or complaining about it. Let's just get rid of them, go back to a simple cheapy medal. If the race wants someone to sponsor it, let them put a logo on the entry form & have a banner at the start & finish!
I don't think races are a rip-off. Apart from running shoes, it's a cheap sport, unlike many i could mention!
Anyway, surely the longer the race, the longer the marshalls, police, etc have to hang around and the longer roads have to be closed so you should expect to pay more.
Womble - It's been many years since I did an Economics degree, so I can't even remember whether we covered the definition of being 'ripped off'! *lol* I see what you're saying about market forces, and my willingness to pay (WTP - I remember that bit!) but you could argue that this is beside the point.
Suppose two big city marathons cost about the same to organise, but one is ballot entry and heavily over-subscribed (e.g. NY) whereas the other operates on a first come, first served basis (e.g. Paris) and takes a while to fill up. So the organisers of the heavily oversubscribed ballot entry can look at their supply and demand curves and work out that even at $240 they will sell out their entries and make a massive profit. As an individual, I'm willing to pay that amount of money because NY is on my marathon wish-list, one of the Majors I want to tick off before I die, and anyway what's $240 when I'll be spending a lot more than that getting there and I can always buy a few pairs of running shoes in Jack Rabbit's post-marathon sale to get some of it back. I'll grudgingly pay the entrance fee, but may still feel I was being ripped off, because I know that very similar events only cost a fraction to enter in other cities.
[disclaimer: I know nothing about NY marathon's profit margin or where the profit goes to. And maybe their pasta party is the best pasta party I've never been to.]
[edit] Just remembered, I meant to draw a parallel with ticket touts. I've spent a good 40/50 quid getting into the odd gig before, because that is what I was willing to pay. Felt pi$$ed of having to do so, however. If the bloody touts hadn't got hold of them I may have had a chance of buying them at face value in the first place. Definitely ripped off!
Middle of nowhere!! You cheeky bugger.
.
Phil, that's price elasticity of demand, innit? If you sell all of something you can put the price up until you find the point at which you're not selling 100%. If profit-maximising is what you're after then the max price to sell 100% must be your target.
No point in selling 40,000 places at £30 when you could still flog them all at £50. I suspect that LM could charge more but chooses not too. As Brighton marathon has demonstrated recently by charging a very high entry (imho), you can charge quite a lot.
The difference between London and Brighton is London been around for 29 years and receives income not just from runners, but charities, sponsors and TV coverage around the world.
Brighton is a new one, with limited sponsors, no TV coverage. They, just like London have to pay for road closures, permits, police, etc. Brighton would love to charge less but cannot afford to do this.
You have to remember this is 1st time Brighton are doing a marathon and a week before London. This is going to be a experiment for them to see if it works and after the race, see whether it was worthwhile after all.
On the question of race charging. There is a difference between big races and local races.
Local races tend to charge anywhere between £8 to £12. Big races will charge £20+.
If you want to enter a race, you know what you paying for and have a choice whether to enter or not.
If some think races overcharge and are a rip off, then don`t enter.
Most local races are reasonable because they have to pay for their expenses but also raise money for local charities and the local running club.
Interesting debate
I organise 2 large races in the south and I'm heavily involved with many smaller ones.
Again it is what ever the market will sustain.If you are running a non/small profit event the price will reflect this.As for timing we chip timed for the first time this year and we had to pass on the cost to the runner
A shame, but necessary, the logistics were getting a nightmare with less people volunteering over the years we had to find a way of cutting staff down at the finish and getting them onto the course also we had results instantly and quibble free.
Other costs well numbers are expensive believe it or not waterproof with the sponsors info front and emergency info back.Road closures and St.Johns dont come at all cheap.
Its not about expensive single items its the total amount of small items despite getting loads of gear cheaply or free
as for momentoes weeeeeeeell thats always a toughie you get
"not another T Shirt?" or "wheres my T shirt?"
You can only do your best and if some people dont like the job your doing or dont want to pay, then dont enter simple as.
goldbeetle, do you get local groups like scouts to be involved. I know some races who ask for their help in return for £1 from every runner entered goes to their cause.
Most people fail to understand that organsing a race is not about everyone turn up on a day and there`s a race. The preparations, getting people, calculating costs, admin, prizes, communication between council, police, sponsors. Its alot of hard work and it falls to one person, the race organiser to make that happen.
Those who run races should be grateful that without race organisers there wouldn`t be races you have today. As I said before, everyone has a choice to enter a race if its costly. But don`t forget you pay for a race to take part in it, that is well organised for you to run and to support the organiser and local causes.
we usually give volunteers a race t shirt lunch and a goody bag (provided by sponsor not us
)
Volunteering hmm again a sensitive subject we draw from the scouts guides and church groups as well as our club members and we scrape by every year theres always need for more marshalls
Ta Womble
its a club event for the running community and public, if we ran it on a commercial basis i.e I get paid entry would be a lot higher twice as much probably
I'm not getting ripped off.
I think theres 3 different groups organise 10k races at Sherwood Pines, with massively varying prices. I do the one that costs me less... and I'm happy with it.
Local 5m road series £5 for 4 races.
Trunce, run 9 times a year £1.20 per race.
And incase I start to run out of T shirts theres a selection of 10 milers and Halfs for £7-£13.
Theres plenty of races.... buyer beware.
Have a look at the costs of triathlons and compare that to runs !
I did the Swindon 1/2 on Sunday and consider the £20 entrance fee a bargain.
The post that started this thread off suggested a hypothetical race of 1,000 runners at £15 a shot.
So costs that i know from experience that are purely on runner numbers:
Race numbers anywhere from £1.20 to £1.50 per runner
Medals - crap basic from 60p, decent one circa £1.50 but assume you only buy enough for 900 finishers to account for no shows and so take this to 90% of the price
Chip Timing £2.00-£3.50
So already you are up to £5-6 per runner
Then there are the general costs
Assume hire 20 portaloos - £800-£1000 incl delivery
Hire of a race venue eg church hall, school - £200 - £500 (this could vary wildly)
Hire of race clocks - £200
Hire of finish gantry / start line - £200
Fencing £150
signs £150
barriers - £500
barrier tape £50
Marshal vests x 50 - £300
Trophies - £150
Which adds up to around £3,000 - £3,250 which adds another £3+ per runner.
Suddenly you are up to £8-10 per runner.
Then pay for online entry - this is 5% of the cost of entry for a decent online system - another 75p per runner
I havent included:
Insurance
Affiliation or fees to UKA or Road running associations
Local authority / Highways fees
Payments for marshals you need to hire or refreshments for volunteers
First Aid
Police cover (very expensive)
Any costs of advertising or marketing
postage for numbers being mailed out
and suddenly the "shall we organise a decent 10k" conversation means you have racked up £10-12k in costs.
The amount of work that goes in to organising events is huge. More assumptions - assume on the day there are 50 marshals who are there to set up, tidy up and marshal. The club therefore would make a surplus of around £60 per marshal on the day to go to club funds. this doesnt take account of all of the work of the team who pull the race together, who measure the course, who liase with police, highways, authorities, media, running mags and also, yes, the runners. Then add time taken to stuff goody bags, prepare all the race packs to be sent out and suddenly the whole thing becomes a massive amount of work.
It is a good way for clubs or organisations to make some funds but it isnt easy. The races that can be held for £3 or £4 are either a part of a series where the costs are really slimmed down, or they attract local sponsorship to defray costs, or are held on private land. Most of these races are fine but basic, ie no chip timing, cheap race numbers, no medals.
Choose your race on location and value. Yes, some £20 races are crap and some £8 are good but in general the race reviews on RW forums if aggregated will give a fair representation. So avoid the poor ones and go for the good ones. Over time the former will either improve or fold, the latter will flourish. Don't begrudge a club that has worked for years to build up a good race where they make a healthy surplus - it encourages the club to keep putting on good races for us all.
Oh, and ensure that even if you aren't a member of a club that you volunteer at a race at least once a year.
I don't know what hall you are hiring - the one I hire for my bike race charged £50 plus £35 damage deposit and it was very nice.
Most races aren't paying for police cover, portaloos, road closures (assume this is highway fees), do many really use 50 marshall vests and pay that much for each one?, etc etc. I wouldn't argue with a big race that laid on all that charging quite a lot - but some of the lower key races run on public roads with fairly big fields - 500 plus runners - must be raking it in.
popsider
Police can insist on attending events, and insist on charging if they do. Practice varies widely by force area.
Highway fees can just mean erecting advance signs. Some highway authorities (eg Devon) are extremely pedantic, insisting that anyone doing this is qualified to work in the public highway. In practice this usually means employing a contractor at great expense, rather than a club volunteer doing it for free.
Road closure fees are extra, with the additional expense of advance advertising.
Schools will charge circa £500, particularly if managed by a PFI contractor.
Van hire for a couple of days isn't cheap either.
Portaloos & chip timing both cost a lot.
Our largest race - 700 entrants at £12 - made a surplus of about £200 earlier this year.
As I say if that's what it costs to put on your race then I've no problem with charging an amount to cover the costs and make a profit. Some of those expenses don't apply to all areas though - as a race organiser myself I've never heard of the police or highway authorities insisting warning signs are erected by people with a qualification. I've never had the police charge me for attending my race. I pay £50 for an HQ not £500. Not many races require a road closure. Not sure where you are advertising but surely you can get articles in the local press for free. Why are you hiring a van - doesn't everyone know someone with a van that could help out ? Portaloos and chip timing aren't universal - in fact when I raced regularly not that many years ago I think the only chip timing I ever got was FLM and Robin Hood Mara.
I've no doubt it's possible to run a race that costs a small fortune to put on but in my experience of organising bike races I don't think it's inevitable that costs are going to be many thousands of pounds let alone the £10-12k quoted a few posts ago.
Makes me feel better about the half I'm in in a couple of weeks.
2500 limit
Chip timed
T shirt
online entry
etc
£11.50
I help organise a club 10k race. It's not a charity race and we try to keep costs down. A couple of years ago we moved it to a new (Olympic) venue. Since we moved the price of the venue has increased sharply each year, and that's by far and away our biggest cost. The second major cost is the chip timing and entry management by a specialist company, which is priced per runner. We have gun to finish timing and our biggest complaint is that we don't have individual start to finish chip timing, but that would add at least £1 per runner to the cost because the start and finish are in different locations. The next major expense is toilets, quite a big expense given that most of them are only used for 20 minutes! The medal we give is quite expensive as we make sure it's a decent momento, and we have to order more than we actually use as you can never be sure how many of the entered runners will actually turn up. We're lucky that we get most of our food & drink donated by various companies which means we can usually give bottled water & sports drink, plus various snack items, but if we had to pay for those as some races do then that would add something like 2.50 per runner. Then add the costs of individual and team prizes, race record bonuses, an ambulance and medics, race numbers, van hire, PA hire, clock hire, finish gantry & barrier hire, cups, signs and tape, skip for rubbish and numerous other small items the cost soon mounts up. The end result is that for 1000 runners at £13 per head we make a small profit, but it's not much, and certainly not enough to absorb any increased costs in future years - they will have to be passed on.
Bike races have much smaller numbers than most running races.
I've never had a goody bag (or sadly medal) from a bike race.
Race numbers are always reused.
No need to hire clocks or have feed stations.
No need for chip timing.
There are some great running events out there - I'd always advise people to check out RW for their area to see whats coming up.
My first race was a half up in Leyland - very low key but it was on the RW site and was great value. You just have to look around a bit.