Races

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  • LDWA are ace and runners are most welcome
  • HC.Thanks for your involvement in The Greensand last Sunday.
  • You're very welcome No Toes image hope you had fun image
  • Can I just point out that the runs aren't organised by Bupa - they're the sponsors. Bit like saying the Premier League is organised by Barclays! The races are organised by Nova International Ltd, which I think is Brendan Foster's company.
  • Can we push this thread onto the next page so that the LDWA reference recedes into the past - the last thing they need are hordes of runners saying 'GNR too expensive so for my annual run I'll do *****'!

     And yes, that is an elitist view!

  • This is something i have addressed at my club and my feeling is that i had so many weird views such as "i would rather our club has the money, rather than the runners who enter".  By the way, my club's race fee was £9! I said make it £7!

    Basically, my view is this- we are being ripped off big time, one side of this is exorbitant entry fees and even a £10 entry fee to a 1000 runner race will produce a profit of over £1000. How do i know this? Club accounts and not just my current club but my old club too. This was when the fee was £7 tops and only £1 more than a cycle time trial. Now most races are double the price of a cycle tt. The problem is it would not be rocket science to envisage what would happen if you only had 200 entries for a £7 entry. So for me you have to guess how many entries will be forthcoming(not that hard i would say). My club wanted to find places to put their money as we had too much but kept making money out of races. I said reduce entry fees or offer cash prizes, but bizzarely nobody agreed with this view.

    So that brings me to prizes and let's have them, loads of them even if they are small amounts, even less than the entry fee. In fact i have e-mailed uk athletics on this subject and they are content to let people do what they want. In other words they don't care that runners are being ripped off  by charities, most clubs (although some clubs more than others) and now businesses. This is the reason i have gone back to cycle time trials now. First, i only pay entry fees of £7-£10 apart maybe from 12 hours t.t's where it could be £15(but then additional costs are many- hiring a hall all day plus food etc) and secondly there is always the chance of a cash prize. Even if i were to win a running race(not likely) then i probably would still not get a cash prize. Probably i would get a trophy and have to return it next year. That doesn't help, we are not all rich!

    So in the main i will do cycle Time Trials, where i know i will not be ripped off. Yes its difficult in travel costs as they start earlier neccesitating the odd hotel but at least i am not being ripped off by organisers. Let's put some figures on this, i picked up a start sheet  from the Anerley BC 50m time trial(picked up at random) -entry fee £7  x 84 riders = £588. There are similiar costs in terms of a hall although numbers are re-used. But remember the hall becomes expensive as only 84 riders. There is a prize list of £235 which is not un-typical in my opinion. How do they do it? Simple, they are not looking to make a profit, i guess they see it as their duty to the sport to run a time trial or 2 every year. Profit doesn't come into it, clubs have a responsibility to the sport to make sure it carries on. Running clubs don't see it like that, do they?

    By the way, who says we need medical cover such as St.Johns ambulance, i have found them to be worse than useless with cuts and grazes. They are not allowed to use germolene or Savlon, i have no clue why- all i do know is if you put a dressing on a graze without , it will stick! I have only seen them in a cycle tt rarely despite the fact that there are probably more injuries (remember organisers can always ring 999). They certainly would not do the tests on the ground that were done by the excellent medical people in Austria where i was airlifted to hospital with a heart problem.

    It's up to runners i guess. Don't ever enter a 10k race that charges £12 or more or a half marathon for £16 or more. It is up to us all, if we do this entry fees will drop! 

  • Ultimately, we have to make our own decisions about what a thing is worth, and what seems overpriced for one person is about right for another. Seems to me that organisers normally get it about right. Every year I complain about the cost of my local big race,  the Reading Half, yet it's always sold out. Same with most well-known races. I guess it's because the huge races have a sense of occasion about them that we're willing to pay to experience.

    As for the smaller local races, most seem to be £12-15 these days which I reckon is reasonable. Aiming for a race tends to keep me out of the pub for a while, so I could argue that overall, entering a race saves me money. I would spend the cost of the average race in a couple of hours in the pub, and a meal out would cost considerably more, so I try to keep it in perspective.

  • I would certainly advise everybody not to do the Reading half, i say to organisers, just because you are getting a full field there is no reason to charge these incredible amounts. Cycling organisers don't charge like this and there is no reason in the world that running organisers should. Running races have gone up even for the same race. Barns Green is a case in point, when i first ran it the price was £7 and now it is more like £17-why?

    And lets have prizes not medals. I throw mine away unless they mean something. Finishing means nothing!

  • Horses for courses, Peter.

    I like medals.

    Yes, Reading is expensive but there again it is a major event that closes down the town for much of the day, and finishes in a professional football stadium. It's not comparable to a local cycling event, where presumably you keep the roads open.

    I have the choice of whether to do it or not, and on balance, I have decided to do it and pay my money. No one put a gun to my head as I tapped out my entry.

  • I guess theres an element of how many races are you going to do in a year/lifetime?

    London Marathon, GNR/GSR.. how many of these runners do it more than once? I suspect theres a lot of one offs in there?

    I've just worked out my initial diary for next year £46.80, for 21 races image

  • I think we should realise what we are doing by entering races that are expensive in such numbers. When we constantly have a full field for races like Reading we are saying to organisers"go on charge us more, we'll pay whatever".

    It seems that this race is run by Sweatshop now, which is a commercial organisation. So, how much money do you think they are making and we (collectively) are sending the message to say put the prices up, we love you making idiots out of us! Not me!

    I have just looked up their site and entries are £27.50  x 16,000 entries   =  £440,000 turnover. How much do you think they are spending. Remind me how much road closures cost ! Perhaps we are subsidising Reading football club, i don't think i would like to pay for a football club.

  • oiyouoiyou ✭✭✭

    It's an outrage! Some people seem to think they've a right to make money, just because they're selling us stuff we want.

    Come the revolution, they'll be the first against the wall, brother.

  • Peter I ran my cycling clubs TT for a couple of years - its completely different from running events.

    Far far smaller field, and with staggered starts too - so we wouldnt even hire an event HQ. A local car park was all we needed. No road closures, no police, no water stations. All the helpers - and you only needed them on junctions were pressganged from the club (although this is difficult in itself).
    No hiring a big clock, no teeshirts, no souvenir medals.
    Prize list would be minimal, as the revenue was pretty minimal too.
    Nobody does these events for the money (as there is very little) its all about winning and beating your personal best.

    We did get involved in a far bigger off road ride - that did involve hiring facilities, with aid stations, medals etc. That proved so popular that we did make a good profit on it, and those funds went to the club to help out with kit for youngsters, or help pay expenses to our best racers. Which I think is completely fair. A lot of people gave up a full day (and more) to make the event a success - so its right that they should benefit through the club.

    If you dont like the price of something - dont pay. You can only be 'ripped off' if you pay these prices.

    Weird that your running club didnt know what to do with their money though - but why reduce entry fees if runners were happy to pay their fees to enter ? Use it for the good of your club.
  •  Bigger races cater more to newbies and delicate egos?

    Local club race 50-500 runners, how many are 'good' runners and how many runners will finish behind you?

    Commercial race, 1000s of runners, how many are 'good' runners and how many runners will finish behind you?
  • I'm still not sure why you're upset, Peter.

    Reading is twice the price of many events but it is at least  twice the organisational challenge of the average smaller race. Not sure if you've ever done the Reading Half, or even if you've been to Reading but it's a very large town -- the 17th biggest in England -- and closing down most of it for several hours is a major undertaking.

    I've no doubt whatever that Sweatshop makes some sort of profit, or why else would they bother? In return, I'm getting something that I judge to be worth the outlay. I wouldn't describe it as fantastic value for money but equally, I don't regard it as a blatant rip-off, like I do the GNR or London 10K. (Personal opinion)

    Thing is, one of the reasons I like Reading is that it has that big event feel to it. Suppose they offered to make it a £10 event, with a corresponding downsizing of the organisation i.e. much smaller field, running on pavements, sending the runners out into the countryside for 10 miles, modest finish area, smaller memento etc, I don't think I'd want to do it as much. I can do those races most weekends. Reading is a once-a-year big town race for me, and I'm happy to pay extra.

     That said, of course we all have our limits. If Reading became £100 to enter, like many US marathons, I wouldn't enter. So you are right, there are market  forces at work here, but the fact that they eventually sell out most years suggests they are not pricing it too high for the type of entrants they attract.

  • Peter Harridge wrote (see)

    I I have just looked up their site and entries are £27.50  x 16,000 entries   =  £440,000 turnover. How much do you think they are spending. Remind me how much road closures cost !


    An arm and a leg! Try looking at this and get some idea of the sheer volume of work involved in shutting down 13 miles worth of roads in a major city. It talks about the signage requirements, public liability insurance, public relations to tell people of the event and you have yet to factor in PA systems, race car, barriers, etc and the biggest cost of all - police. You need full time staff for this so they will need to be paid, they're not doing the work in their spare time.
    I completely agree that they're not doing this for altruistic reasons and they are out to make a profit but don't believe for one minute that the costs associated with events like this aren't also in the hundreds of thousands of pounds.

    As an example, the Rapha crit in London was charged in the region of £1500 per hr for a closure of a 1km circuit for a couple of hours. What do you think it would cost to close 20-odd km of roads for the best part of a day in Reading?

  • DustinDustin ✭✭✭
    How many people  who complain over the cost of races spend £££ on gels, isotonic drinks, shakes, skins, garmins, transport/travel to races, top of the range kit, nike+ and other assorted gadgets and gizmos that , in my opinion, add little in the way of value to the running experience, that cheaper products (or shock of all shocks) no products at all, can offer.
    I'm with RC amongst others, its a buyers market and price is largely dictated by demand. Reading, although overpriced is a good event, best value for money however must surely be London.
    If I were to organise a local race and know that I'd sell out if I upped the price by an extra pound, why wouldn't I?
  • As many have already said, absolutely no one is being ripped off. If the cost is too much dont enter it really is as simple as that. There are plenty of events about to choose from that cater for all types of runner - personally as a fitness / recreational runner I dont want a field full of club runners speeding into the distance just as i'm sure many club runners dont want a field of plodders and fancy dress! Horses for courses.

    I love the big event feel and am quite happy to pay for it.

  • Super, great! You are all happy to pay pay pay. No i don't need to enter if i don't like the price. But i am not only talking about 1 event. I actually think £15 is way too much to pay for a race say a half marathon. And what i am concerned about is the spiralling cost of these races. I said 2 years ago i would not pay more than £12 for a 10k or £14 for a half. Do you think i can keep to that now.

    Cougie, this must have been a long time ago. In the last 2 years i have ridden time trials and there has been a hall in every case even in Yorkshire which years ago i recall was the last place there wasn't a hall. Definitely the costs are cheaper in time trials but my point is that profits are being made for an 800 runner race at the price of £9. So why charge £15 for what is an average race- not Reading but say Bedford or Barns Green. Bedford in particular is run by a club and they are clearly seeking to make a bumper profit out of road runners. I am personally not happy with commercial organisations getting involved with running events, take a look at triathlons and you will see where we are heading- prices of £60-100 will not be uncommon.

    Actually what we need is at least guidance for prices and prizes too and maybe regulation. Uk Athletics doesn't care clearly and just wants the revenue without the hassle of having regs that have to be obeyed. To quote them from 2 years ago-"we are quite happy with clubs making money in this way"

    What i am really not happy with is being charged and then seeing that we have a prize list which doesn't exist and just trophies to be given back if you are in the top 3. You maybe get a replica  or plaque. At least in some races such as my own club's and the Borehamwood 1/2 is another to springs to mind the prizes are a little bit deeper and so you have a chance of some meaningful plaque or something. Medals for everybody-what's the point!

    Some people have said they would rather be in a race of plodders or at least theat's how i read their comments. Why! So you can say you are further up the field. They are just fooling themselves!  But they are correct , years ago my best ever percentage was in the Watford 1/2, i was in the top 5% wheras my average was more like 10%. Getting back to the Reading, i can't believe it is much bigger than the Great West which i did and if it is it's not worth nearly double.

    I say again don't rip us off!

  • feck me PH - that's one mighty big soapbox you're on.......


    sure, you have made your points but as has been said by many - if you don't like the price, don't enter. it's not compulsory.

    sure, we'd all like races that cost us next to nowt with great prizes/medals/goodies/whatever but economical reality doesn't allow it in most instances - it's the same as saying we'd all like beer to be 10p a pint (as it was in 1971 when we went decimal - I can remember that).

    "spiralling" costs are a fact of life - has been for ages hence the price of beer analogy - just live with it
  • People run for different reasons, and from what I can see, there is a range of race types to match the range of race needs.

  • Peter - if you're so concerned about being 'ripped off' - can I politely suggest that you go ahead and organise a multi-thousand runner race, and then come back on here and tell us how you've got on? I have been involved in the past and am fully aware of the huge spiralling costs of race promotion - you can't expect people to just up their time for nowt any more.
  • As a club we put on a large 1000 runner race at a popular race venue in the South East, a venue that holds almost weekly races and triathlons throughout the spring, summer and autumn. I think we were the first race to use the venue, and now I think we may well be the only non-commercial race that's held there these days (and I'm including the big charity races as commercial because that's what they are). It wouldn't cause us any financial hardship to stop organising it, and it would certainly make the lives of the committee a lot easier, but we do it because we've done it for 25 years, and because we're runners ourselves and we like to put on a race that provides what runners want.  Yes, we usually make a small profit, but that isn't the aim. Having said that, why should we go through all the trials and tribulations of organising an event like this and not get something back for the club? Why shouldn't we get a return that helps us keep our membership subs down? We have to set the price months in advance then hope that enough runners turn up to cover the costs. We take a risk as a club that our substantial outlay of thousands of Pounds will be recouped, and I don't regard us making a small profit as meaning that we are ripping off our runners.

    By comparison, the cost of the commerical races on the same venue are similar or higher than ours. They are however often squeezed in between triathlons as a way to make best use of a venue (and equipment) they have already hired, and they often provide no chip timing, no goody bag, no medal etc etc. Their prices I think reflect more on what they regard as the going rate for a race rather than their actual cost, and I suspect the runners fees are being used to offset the far more expensive triathlons. Is that a rip off? Depends on your definition I guess, but the organisers have to make a living and how they chose to do that is entirely down to them.

    In the scheme of things however I think the price of races is nothing compared to so many other areas in which we as runners (and UK residents) are overcharged. You could start off with the cost of running shoes in the UK being more than double the price in the USA and go from there.

  • There are four types of races. The local ones which are organised by clubs and are priced reasonably. They will raise money either to support the club or local charities.
    Then there the local rotary club, round table local races which cost slightly more and raise
    for local charities too. Then the races organised by charities who will charge you for entering but
    encourage you to raise sponsorship for their own cause. Finally, the biggies who will offer you a place in the biggest race around and you will have to pay over the odds to enter. 

    Now each type have their own pricing. The local club races don`t really charge you loads. But the
    non club races (charities, organisations, local authorities) seem to charge more. Everyone can
    choose to enter a race. But if you want to pay for a well-oiled race or just a simple, local race then
    its down to your decision and your money. At the end of the day, without us entering, most races
    will disappear.

  • "£15 is way too much to pay for a race say a half marathon.."

    £15 implies that the  race is organised by a club with volunteers giving their time for nothing.  Races arent just organised 15 minutes before you turn up on the start line.

    Incredibly selfish of you to expect complete strangers to put in 1000s of hours so that you can get a quality race at a price to you of just 4 ½ pints of guinness.  I would suggest that you are attempting the rip off.  You are already getting peoples' time for free but you also want to have the right to set the entry fee.

  • Peter - no not a long time ago at all. In fact our Hilly Event that we still promote has never used a hall. Just a carpark. How cheap are we ? image

    By all means carry on your TTs with the early starts and the 1000's of pounds worth of kit. Running is far far cheaper in the end, and a lot more sociable. Although TTing never has closed roads - so you could be even cheaper and just time yourself over the same course ! Perfect !

    If you're in the top 10% of runners (as i usually am too) then I can see why you fancy a more in depth spread of prizes !

    Its entirely up to you - whatever floats your boat. Clearly a lot of us reckon that the price of running races are worth it.
  • WilkieWilkie ✭✭✭

    I've been reading back on this thread, and picked up on Popsider, saying a couple of times that portaloos are not necessary.

    I have to tell you that when I've done races with too few toilets (which is most of them), it really pisses me off (if you'll pardon the pun).

    At one race this year I had to wait nearly twenty minutes for a pee, and the start had to be delayed by ten minutes to allow the queue to all 'go'.

    I probably won't do that race again.  It's really annoying to be wanting to pee (after a long journey to the race), and having to wait that long.

    At another race a couple of years ago my friends and I missed the start because we were still waiting to use the few toilets available. 

    You chaps might feel happy nipping behind a hedge, but most women don't.

  • Yes, we could put on races keping costs to the absolute minimum by doing away with souvenirs, chips etc, but these days you have to deal with runners expectations, and that costs money. In the majority of races the number of unaffiliated 'recreational' runners comfortably outnumber the club runners, and that often means you're dealing with people who only do a few races a year. Many of them will have done one or more of the big races, and they want your race to also be an event - they want it to be special, they want the t-shirt or medal, and they want the bulging goody bag. They also expect chip timing and the results to be on-line within a couple of hours, and it's even getting to the point where they are expecting start to finish chip rather than gun to finish, and that's even more costs for events where the start and finish aren't in the same place. So unless you can find a major sponsor all these requirements add up and before you know it you're up to £13 or £14, and maybe more.

    Of course if you want cheap and cheerful then look no further than parkrun to see what can be achieved with a bit of organisation and a lot of volunteers (most of whom appear to be club runners). Whilst I'm a parkrun organiser myself and fully support it and the ethos behind it, I also think it would be rather sad if all events went this way and fully organised large scale event disappeared just because of this country's obsession with cheap.

  • But Wilkie if we all ordered portaloo we'd have to put our prices up image
  • agreed with Wilkie you need Portaloos but however many you order its never enough

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