1500m Training For Masters European Champs 2010

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  • You must be following me Les!  Will change focus to more tempo stuff in february - good spot though.

    I'll be doing counties, although I'm a poor cross country runner - it's too hilly, muddy and long.  Are you running?  Would be good if you could as we would have a good chance of a team win with you.

    Good luck on friday, hope the wind stays away. 

  • Hi Mos 

    Looks like I will be working from home tomorrow due to the weather. Do you fancy going out for a run at about midday? A longish one would suit fine. Send me a text if your interested on 07875 407036.

    Les

  • Tom.Tom. ✭✭✭
    Moraghan...didn't realise you were a flatlander....you don't have webbed feet do you?

    Regards Tom (aka Arclight), but just a yellow belly reallyimage
  • I only have one toe (really wide) on each foot.  Genetically my family advanced from webbed feet generations ago!  Where are you based Tom?
  • Tom.Tom. ✭✭✭
    Hi Moraghan

    South Lincs. I'm a lapsed member of NVH though I'm in the process of reactivating my membership as they run in the NMids XC league. Have you ever run any of the Frostbite races?

    if you want to check my athletics data info my name's Tom Salway, though my profile looks a bit like the Marie Celeste - I went over the side in 2006 and have hardly been seen since then.

    ....splash!!
  • Haven't run any frostbite races.  Plan to do 2 xc races in January and that's it.  I believe that NVH are usually one of our main rivals in the county champs.

    You've got some very good times there.  Hopefully 2010 will see some more. 

  • Solid week, although a bit hampered by snowy and icy conditions.  I'm going to get irritated if the weather messes with many more sessions!

    M: a.m. 2.54m recovery.
    p.m. 5.57m easy.
    T: a.m. 2.5m easy.
    p.m. 11.39m with drills, strides and 7 * 800m @5k pace with 400 jog.
    W: a.m. 2.55m recovery
    p.m. 8.5m easy.
    T: OFF
    F: a.m. 2.55m recovery.
    p.m. 11.34m inc 7.5 miles at 1/2MP (6:04).
    S: a.m. 2.57m recovery.
    p.m. 5.65m inc drills, strides and diagonals.
    S: 14.11m easy.
  • Tom.Tom. ✭✭✭
    Good sessions on Tuesday and Friday - especially the 7.5 at HM pace. Presumably as the phases develop the 800s will be run at 3k pace.

    What are the drills that you do. Are the strides are to get the legs turning over and assist running economy. What pace do you do these and are they run off full recovery.

    Is this one week of a two week cycle - other week to include hill reps and full on LT run.

    Questions, questions...........sorry!
  • Thanks Tom. 

    That was the end of week 2 of a 4 week block (wk 2 of base 2 period).  The next block does indeed have 800s at 3k pace! 

    This block:

    wk 1:  Hill repeats + MP / Tempo fartlek

    wk 2:  Vo2 max repeats + 1/2MP run (this was supposed to be 10k repeats but weather intervened)

    wk 3:  400m at 3k pace with short recoveries + MP / Tempo fartlek (may do the 10k repeats instead depending on conditions)

    wk 4:  vo2 max repeats (1ks at 5k pace) + 10k race.

    The next block will be heavy vo2 max (800s at 3k pace and 1400's @ 5k pace) and some 1500m pace work.  In base 3 will revisit hills and do more tempo work.

    Drills are:  skipping, high skipping, high knee marching, high knees, bounding, butt kicks and fast feet (think Benny Hill speeded up). 

    Each drill includes a drill of 50m with a jog back to the start, then 50m of strides concentrating on the form practised in the drill with a walk back before starting the next drill.  I find including the stride helps imprint it on the memory.

    If I am doing a track session I will then follow the drill session with 2 laps of jog the turns and stride the straights.  Where I do strides before a workout without drills I do 6 * 100m starting at 3k pace down to 800m pace with a 40 second recovery (that's more or less full recovery). 

    The strides are to do what you say, also to recruit a few different muscle fibres without undue stress and I have also started using them to really focus on good technique.

  • Tom.Tom. ✭✭✭
    Moraghan - thanks for the detailed reply, from which its quite clear to see where your going with this.

    I like the way you start the strides at 3k pace and gradually speed up, though for myself I'd be reluctant to run them at faster than 1500m pace, but that's probably an age thing.

    I assume that the drills as you describe them are designed to develop the elastic response in the calf muscles. I've flirted with this in the past and think that I ought to percever with this in future.

    The hill reps, I think I read you as saying that these were done at sub lactic pace and were designed to develop strength. In the past I've done these as 10-15 at 75secs until I swam in lactic acid, which probably meant that I was having to spend too much time (2mins?) on the recovery.Do you think that running shorter reps at say XC pace with shorter recovery (a la Kenyan Hills would be a better approach?
  • Tom

    Weather permitting I do a once a week session of 10 * 100m with slow walk back recoveries with the last couple of reps at 400m pace so I feel pretty comfortable with 800m strides after a minimum 2.5 mile easy warm-up and slower strides.  However, I'm not strict on the pace of the strides - it's an approximation.

    The drills are for the elastic response in the calves but also range of motion around the hips - I saw a horrific photo of myself in a sprint finish and I was barely lifting my knees.  Not sure what your injury past is, but the drills aren't too stressful if done on grass.  I would be careful with the bounding though.

    My hill sessions in the early part of the season are done on a gradual uphill of about 300m.  Each session has involved about 6 reps of very slow hill running - concentrating on exaggerated form.  It's hard but more in a weight training way than aerobically.  I have also started to add some reps done at 'medium effort' which is probably 5k intensity.  In the near future I will start doing some very hard efforts but always holding technique.  I may also do a progressive session, starting with exaggerated form through to all out attack on the last. 

    All of these reps are done with a jog down recovery (about 2 - 2.5x the duration of the rep).  This is because my focus is on technique and strength, both of which are difficult to develop without good recovery.  Also, consider that it's difficult to find suitable geography for short recovery hills!

    Later on in the season I will do some short, intense hill sessions on a steeper hill of about 100m.  These are run very hard (swimming in lactic) but again with full recovery.

    With regards to your question (finally!) it does depend what you use your hills for.  For my event I am interested in the elastic strength, power and technique properties.  Lactic clearance with short recoveries I would do on a track as that's event specific and I don't have to worry about getting to the start of another hill.  I do my SS / MP / 1/2MP on an undulating course which takes care of the aerobic side in conjunction with hills (I do these around Grafham water that you may be familiar with  - hills there also on a side route).

    If your heart still lies with the road races (5k to 10m?) I would use a combination of the form / medium hills as described with almost full recovery early in the season but keep the rest of it event specific.

    A couple of examples of event specific would be:

    a)  LT runs over an undulating course where you attack the hills, recover on the downhills and maintain pace on the level.  Effectively meaning your average pace is constant but you get some hill effect in a continous aerobically challenging run.

    b)  Cross Country reps:  If you can find a long hill (c. 800m) run up at 5k / 10k effort, turn around and run back down in a time 10 - 20 seconds slower, turn back round and run up again for as many as you feel comfortable with.  This is continuous but is good for road / xc specific fitness.

    Tom - much of this stuff comes from a miler training paper written by Joe Rubio.  I think it's excellent and gives a lot of detail which you may find interesting.  My training is based on his outline which i have refined to my particular situation.  Take a read when you get the chance, good stuff:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20070210141608/http://wls3.com/running/rubio.php

  • Tom.Tom. ✭✭✭
    Moragham

    Thanks for taking the time and trouble to provide so much detail.

    Much appreciated
    tom
  • No problem - sorry it's so longwinded!
  • Great thread - great running from all - i'm 37 and managed a 2.04 800M last year - shame the times don't go down that far LOL.

    I was 4th M35 in the country in 2007 with a 4.04 1500 (somehow!!), but that I think will remain my PB!!

    Moraghan - good luck with the 1500 - and get that 5k time down - sub 16 surely with your talent?

  • Thanks Simon - nice 1500m time, well done.  Never again you say?  Did the planets align that day? image

    My times from 5k upwards completely suck.  It's partly a reflection of my lack of focus on that distance, the time of the season I race them and, yes, my horrible stamina!  In the long term I think I can go sub-15, but that's just a dream at the moment.

    I plan to race a 5k at the end of march next year where I'll hopefully get the pr right down.  I'm also going to run a 10k on new year's day for my sins.  My 10k PR is even worse!

  • Yeah, aim for 15.20-30 to start with and see how you can knock it down from there - sure to come eventually. My next 10k is boxing day in Poole - hoping for the 33's - hopefully lower end!

    my 1500? one of those nights - open meeting. no breeze, quite warm, training well etc...a 'no excuses' night!!!

  • I'll be running the 5k a couple of times in 2010 and I have a feeling that sub-16 will be the best I can hope for.  15:20 will be a long time coming probably!

    I can never work out if having one of those nights is good or bad for future motivation!!!  Good luck in your 10k.

  • Moraghan - fancy a friendly sportsman's bet on the race to break sub-16 next season then?  image

    Simon - I've been doing some internet stalking.  Congrats on beating me by 14 secs in Saturday's SOTT XC!  BTW did you notice the freaky coincidence between finishing places 31, 32 & 33 and places 19, 20 & 21 from the SOTT at Tadworth two years ago?  Main difference as far as I'm concerned is I'm just hanging off the back of that group rather than being about a minute behind.  image

  • Phil

    Excellent idea - I'll probably have all my 5ks run by mid april, so if I haven't done it by then you've got all summer! 

    Let me know when you have one planned so I can use you as a wind break and try to outkick you.

  • GobiGobi ✭✭✭
    Evening all

    Tom - he is indeed a 400 metre runner stepping up to 800/1500 although at 14 he was an 800/1500 runner who went down. I own the Coe book and a couple of others.
    I also have a 16 year old who is the other way around 57/2.12/4.22

    Makes for some interesting training sessions.

    Moraghan - I should explain we do have a track we just stay off it from September until January
    Training looks a little like this at the moment.

    Sunday - 8 - 10 miles or XC
    Monday - easy 2-4 miles AM(rest if XC)
    Over distance intervals or pyramid sprints(no maximal work)PM
    Tuesday - easy 2-4 miles (sometimes REST)
    Wednesday - 10 miles
    Thursday - Hill work pyramid(85% effort) or 800 metre Kenyan loop
    Friday - REST
    Saturday - 5km TT sometimes flat out sometimes with sections at a certain pace.

    He ran a 4.49 mile on Saturday after running the time trial in the morning so we are quite happy with his current conditioning.


  • Thanks for that Gobi

    Looks like a good mix of workouts there.  What is your strategy / philosophy on mileage?  First impression is that it's a fairly low mileage program, but that depends on the length of his quality sessions and his background. 

    I'm interested in your philosophy on race pace training throughout the year.  For example, I have been doing 2 * (4 * 3k pace) repeats with 100m jog between reps and 400m between sets every other week (200m first session, 300m next, 400m next).  This will change to 1500 pace repeats in the near future - starting at 5 * 300m with equal standing rest done every other week (but adding a new 3k pace session in the form of vo2 max work).  The theory being that you never want to stray too far from race pace at any point in the season - but without the session being inordinately stressful early on.  I started running again this year and never felt comfortable in my races - and attribute this to a lack of consistent race pace training.

    As for what I mean by race pace - there are obviously two options goal pace or current fitness pace.  So far I've been doing the 3k repeats based on end of march goal pace (British Masters 3k indoors), but think for the 1500m pace repeats I will progress the session from current pace through to goal pace.

    Also, are you (and if so, when) planning to add in some continuous tempo / 10k pace work or will you go the route of using the over distance intervals to develop this fitness?

    How long did his last flat out 5k TT take?

  • GobiGobi ✭✭✭
    M - he is young so mileage has been progressive. This is 30 - 50 miles a week.

    Our target is specifically the 800 metres so the furthest out he will race is 5kms and that is torture really, as we go into the season the long runs will also get shorter.

    During the year we will do 3/4 hard sessions a week based around
    Raw speed - 400 and faster
    One or two around 800/1500
    One based around 3/5km pace

    He has run 17.16, currently running 18 ish pace but we do have a habit of going out deliberately hard so therefore only using 2kms of the 5km with the other 3 just being aerobic hard graft.

    Incase you are curious I run
    61/2.20/4.40 and then 16.16 for 5kms
  • Sounds like a good strategy.  Wish I had your stamina!

    If you're interested (and not because I think you need to read it!) here's an article by an American coach on 800m training:

    http://www.jesuittrack.org/rubio800mtraining.htm

  • GobiGobi ✭✭✭
    Having spent the last year injured (ran a 2.40 marathon in January) my current form is about 4.50 1500 pace and 17 min 5km. Beyond XC I have made no effort to run hard over anything longer although I am quite sure I would run 35.xx over 10km

    I need more short speed so I am training more with these guys short distance guys.

    If I could offer you one piece of advice.

    With your short speed be careful how much you try to cover longer distances. For base work and tempo it is fine but in the big picture anything over 5km is not that important for you.
  • Thanks Gobi.  After the base period I have 2 pre-comp periods before the racing begins.  At that point (after base) it's only LT / Vo2 maintenance with 3 - 4 mile tempos the longest quality session.

    Could you specify what you mean by "cover long distances".  Do you mean in continuously in a quality session, total of quality reps (e.g. VO2 max), races, ordinary runs - or some combination of these?!

  • GobiGobi ✭✭✭
    I mean being able to race 10km 10 miles etc....

    If 3km is the target distance

    The reality is that you need to be fast over 1500 and 5km but no further out.
  • Ah yes, point taken. I have a couple of XC races and the rest will be 5k or below.  I missed the deadline for the new year's day 10k which isn't a bad thing. 
  • Solid week again but now very tired and a bit sore. Reduced mileage next week as it's "rest" week.

    M: a.m. 2.57m recovery.
    p.m. 6.1m easy.
    T: a.m. 2.57m easy.
    p.m. 11.83m with drills, strides and 6 * 1000m @5k pace with 2:15 rec.
    W: a.m. 2.58m recovery
    p.m. 9.56m easy.
    T: OFF
    F: p.m. 11.55m w / 12 * 300m hills progressively harder.
    S: a.m. 2.56m recovery.
    p.m. 6.13m inc drills, strides and 7 * 90m downhill sprints.
    S: 15m easy.
  • GobiGobi ✭✭✭
    Morning all

    First Track session of 2010 is tonight

    session is 3 or 4 sets of 4 x 200 off 60sec recs 3 mins between sets.

    Will be hoping to hit 800 pace but 1500 at worst.

    Since coming back from injury I have run on the track once so I am a little wary of tonights plans.
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