Talkback: Lucozade Sport Super Six: Christina (sub-3:00)

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  • Cheers tony . Sounds good. I'm Hoping to do more or less the same schedule as that
  • JBFR... may i wish you a very healthy 2010 and look forward to following your progress to the mall in April....lol... I will be a good bit behind you...
  • TR - I think the runners of the past used all the resources they had available to them at the time.  Ron Hill experimented with depletion diets, shaving his legs etc. etc.  He told us on Sunday he would never use a treadmill, but others nowadays do, as they've grown up with them.  Just because something wasn't used in the 70s or 80s because it wasn't widely available then, it doesn't mean it would not be a useful training tool now.

    JBFAR - HR data is useful stuff to reflect on and can also tell you a story of a particular run or race.  I only wear mine about once a week now as I pretty much know what is happening in my body, but I did use it a lot as I went from running 70mpw all too fast with clubmates to a more structured approach where the easy runs needed to be objectively easy and the faster runs within a certain zone of effort.

    Drills - Mike Gratton had Hilly do some to correct areas of weakness.  Fast feet, heel flicks, knee lifts.  They definitely help with co-ordination and strength.  I'm sure your mentor will be able to give you more specific advice.

  • TS, was your 2.54 at Abo?

    I learnt a lot from training for Abo this year. I just didn't do enough work at or above race pace. I will use the same basic schedule, but might merge it a little with the Garmin 3hr. The thing I like about the Garmin one is that it gives very specific times for each run, making working out the required pace easy.  The schedule I used before said something like '10m steady'. What's 'steady'? 8m/m? 7.30m/m? 7m/m? It's open to a lot of (mis)interpretation.

    My planned races this year pre-VLM are the Heartbreak Half (31 Jan), Lytchett 10 (14 Feb), Silverstone Half (14 Mar), & either Eastleigh 10k or Bournemouth Half (28 Mar) depending on whether I want a speed session or whether I feel like incorporating B'mouth into a long run.

    I always wear a HRM. Don't necessarily look at it on the run, but I will have a look at it post run. At least I have the info at my disposal if I need it in the future.

  • Hi Christina

     Hope you are well

    BR- is correct there are Drills you can do to try and correct the problem, ie heel flicks, high knee's fast feet, also making a concise effort on your easy runs to try to correct the problem, the only problem with that is the second you put your self under pressure ie a race we tend to revert back to our old bad habbits, can I suggest that if the above does not correct the problem, you seek advice from the Luzoade team phyio, how might be able to help, have you changed your shoes recently ?

     I would not get to bogged down with times at this stage we have 16 weeks of training/racing a head of us !

    I am more than happy with your racing schedule, and to be honest would like you to spend January getting in to the training programme, but happy to work around any race you might want to do ?

  • Scruffmeister wrote (see

    TS, was your 2.54 at Abo?

    I learnt a lot from training for Abo this year. I just didn't do enough work at or above race pace. I will use the same basic schedule, but might merge it a little with the Garmin 3hr. The thing I like about the Garmin one is that it gives very specific times for each run, making working out the required pace easy.  The schedule I used before said something like '10m steady'. What's 'steady'? 8m/m? 7.30m/m? 7m/m? It's open to a lot of (mis)interpretation.My planned races this year pre-VLM are the Heartbreak Half (31 Jan), Lytchett 10 (14 Feb), Silverstone Half (14 Mar), & either Eastleigh 10k or Bournemouth Half (28 Mar) depending on whether I want a speed session or whether I feel like incorporating B'mouth into a long run.I always wear a HRM. Don't necessarily look at it on the run, but I will have a look at it post run. At least I have the info at my disposal if I need it in the future.

    Yes it sure was at Abingdon....

    If you look  HERE

    you will find the training paces. You can also adjust your finish time up and down, which is what I used for Abo this year....and it worked for me...

    My planned pre VLM are Stubbington 10K, Ryde 10M, Bramley 20, Fleet 1/2 and Eastleigh 10k...

  • BR - agreed it is useful training tool.

    But my take is this - Christina's tergat is 2:59 so it doesnt matter a scooby what her HR is in training, how fast she can run a 10k or how many speedwork sessions she can do. Its all about maximising the percentages by hitting 1/2 way in 1:28:30 ish and holding on.

    She has won open water swims and done IM and 1/2 IM races, but as far as I understand it she doesnt routinely run much. SO teh most important thing for her is long runs and medium long runs, IMO every weekend that has a 10k or similar race in it is a lost long run and is taking money from the bank instead of topping up the bank. There is also a danger of tapering for small races and being dis-illusioned by them when the race times are compromised cos of marathon training.

    I think there is a big danger here in doing the wrong sort of training and racing build up. sub3 for a woman is simialr in sub2:45 for a man in that its a fair ask and with Christina not being that regular a runner its even harder with now only 16 weeks to go.

  • Hi JBFAR, just popping in to say good luck with the training for sub3 at VLM. Got mine at Abingdon this year and will be trying to do it again on the big stage. My training starts on New years day.
  • TR - not arguing with anything else you say but using a HRM in her `marathon paced' runs will give her a fairly good idea of what the MP will be come April 25th.  As you say - it's a case of building the endurance.  So would you be suggesting that the RW Garmin schedule she has to stick to is not the optimum for optimising her chances of sub 3?
  • If JBFAR has done IM and 1/2 IM distances surely running endurance shouldn't ba a problem, TR and 16 weeks is more than enough to see her make improvements?  Also, she has done a 37 minute 10K in the past, which shows she's been at the level required to go sub 3, so shouldn't take her as much as somebody who has never been there to get back to that level.
  • BR - I agree with you that the HRM could be a useful tool, but it wont make or break her campaign, and she wont know what her HR should be during a marathon. I dont know whats in that schedule, but I know what training i'd get Christina to do if i were her coach.

    Hilly - Christina is a very strong swimmer and the IM is more about the bike than running, I might be wrong but I dont think that she routinely runs many miles, so I'd like to see her running more longer distance runs, as I dont reckon 16 weeks is a very long build up for someone like that.

  • might be talking bllx as usual though !
  • Christina

    good luck with everything

    i was going to throw in some realistic bits of advice, purely as i see anything always as on the day

    but i'm not really sure you need it

    Plus, i'm more than sure that the crowds will inspire you and really drive you on

  • TR - it does say on her profile that she's been running for 22 years.  So even if she doesn't do big miles she will be one very fit lady from all those years of exercise.  Yes, she may need to a adjust to being on her feet for longer, but she's not a novice to marathons having run 3:13 off not many miles.  Therefore in my opinion she is in a far better position than many going for sub 3 with her background and age.  But as we know nothing is guarenteed.  I've got myself into sub 3 shape a few times and only pulled it off once!

  • TR - here's the first 5 weeks:-

    WEEK ONE

    Mon
    5M (miles) (approx 40 mins) easy
    Tue 4M (approx 30 mins) slow with a few gentle strides
    Wed 6M (approx 46 mins) slow
    Thu 5M (approx 34 mins) steady
    Fri 4M (approx 31 mins) easy or rest
    Sat 5M (approx 32 mins) brisk hilly cross-country run or race
    Sun 12M (87-93 mins) slow

    WEEK TWO

    Mon 5M (approx 40 mins) easy
    Tue 1M jog, then 3 x 2M (or 11-12 mins) fast, with 800m (4-min) jog recoveries, then 1M jog
    Wed 7M (approx 53 mins) slow
    Thu 1M jog, then 3M (approx 20 mins) brisk, then 1M jog
    Fri 4M (approx 31 mins) easy or rest
    Sat 6M (approx 41 mins) steady off-road
    Sun14M (approx 105 mins) slow

    WEEK THREE

    Mon 5M (approx 40 mins) easy
    Tue 1M jog, then 5 x 1M (or 6 mins) fast, with 400m (2-min) jog recoveries, then 1M jog
    Wed 8M (approx 61 mins) slow
    Thu 6M (approx 41 mins) steady
    Fri 4M (approx 31 mins) easy or rest
    Sat 8M (approx 53 mins) brisk hilly cross-country run or race
    Sun 16M (approx 2hr 05) slow

    WEEK FOUR

    Mon 5M (approx 40 mins) easy
    Tue 1M jog, then 8 x 800m (or 3 mins) fast, with 200m (1-min) jog recoveries, then 1M jog
    Wed 9M (approx 70 mins) slow
    Thu 1M jog, then 3M (approx 19:30) brisk, then 1M jog
    Fri 4M (approx 31 mins) easy with strides
    Sat 4M (approx mins) easy or rest
    Sun 1M jog, then race 10K or 5M, then 1M jog. Aim for a sub-38:00 10K or sub-30:00 5-miler

    WEEK FIVE

    Mon 5M (approx 40 mins) easy
    Tue 1M jog, then 6M (or 45 minutes) fartlek, then 1M jog
    Wed 10M (approx 75 mins) slow
    Thu 1M jog, 4M (approx 26 mins) brisk, then 1M jog
    Fri Rest or 4M (approx 31 mins) easy
    Sat 6M (approx 40 mins) steady off-road
    Sun 16M (approx 2hrs) slow

     For single runs, the mileage total does seem quite low.  With doubles added in, it would be an ok schedule.  Would you think many guys we know would get to sub 2:45 off those weeks?

  • I have to say looking at that schedule it does seem to be a lot of 4-5 milers in there.  Also, I would like to see the long run up to 20m by week 5 and it isn't.  I'm aiming to follow as much of Mike Gratton's schedule of 80-100m per week off his 2.09 website as I can manage.  There is another which is 55 to 75 miles per week, which only has 4 mile runs as a second run of the day.  Who is it who thinks that JBFAR stands a better chance of hitting sub 3 with the schedule BR copied above than with the 55-75mpw (or even the 80-100mpw) which does seem to get the long runs and medium long runs up to a decent length in the first couple of weeks?

    Here's a link to the schedules...

    http://www.209events.com/file/178.doc

  • Hilly - maybe I'm talking bllx then

    BR - agreed, theres lots of short runs, which could be added to with doubles. But i'd rather see a 10 than a 5 + 5. As it stands in 5 weeks time (11 weeks to go ?) you'd have bagged a 12, a 14 and 2 x 16M as the longest run, with the midweeker only just up to 10M. Marigold and Padams could run a 2:45 off that, I wouldnt try it myself though. Too many 4, 5s and 6s in that schedule for me.

    I understand that this is an exercise in proving RW plans though, but are you allowed to "up" the distance of some of the runs ?

    My "rules" are that cos I only run 4 or 5 times/week then if I'm going to don the trainers then I dont come home for an hour minium, and its over a month since I ran less than 10M, but I'm tyring to build my endurance up again after a carp year. JBFAR - I'm keener than most to see you go sub3 - for obvious reasons. I'm just trying to point out whats needed in my numpty opinion. 

  • Hilly wrote (see)

    Also, I would like to see the long run up to 20m by week 5 and it isn't.


    I wonder if this is one area where JBFAR's endurance background isn't what the the basic schedule was aimed at - it seems to me too that the long run could probably get longer sooner.

    But there's a reason why Paul's a mentor and I'm not - he knows a lot more about distance running and training for it than I do!

  • With regards to the RW sub-3 schedule, no one seems to actually want to say it! 

    You know what I mean....

  • They're trying to be polite Moraghan!

    80MPW is a fairly high level of training (particularly for an athlete like JBFAR who is quick for a lady but not lightening)- I remember having analysed Paul's training at one point. I got his schedule and it looked very scary with 100+ mile weeks on- then I broke it down and actually had a look and reckoned he was running about 650 minutes a week (6:30mm) -only 50 minutes more than my 80mpw! Difference was the average pace was about a minute quicker- same as he would run a marathon about a minute quicker.

    So if JBFAR is doing 80- guessing she would averaging around 8:30mm then she'd be running 680 minutes per week or more minutes per week than Paul was in the build up to London.

     You're also talking about building up an athlete who hasn't run a huge amount of volume, and if those RW schedules are a fair measure of her regular mileage, doubling the volume she's handled before (at least in running terms) within 3 and a half months given a two week taper- to my mind an athlete could possibly hold that volume increase but it'd all have to be done a) Very slowly (i.e. little at even MP) and b) split it doubles and finally c) without a decent long-run. IN short she'd either be working so hard to get the mileage in she wouldn't be able to include any marathon specific work or b) she'd get the marathon specific work in (long tempoes, long runs, progressive MWLR etc.) and her body would be so fried from putting it all in and dealing with the extra mileage there'd be little useful progress until about 6 months down the line.

    Apologies for talking about you in the third person JBFAR!

    Looking at RW schedule I'm struck by in week 5- "16 miles in 2:00 - slow"  personally I certainly wouldn't find running 16 miles at MP+30 seconds slow- it'd definitely be doable but it wouldn't be slow!

  • I fully agree what all have said about JBFAR needing to build up slowly, but she does have 22 years of some kind of running behind her and a 3:13 marathon so is not starting from scratch.

    JBFAR - I remember you saying over a month ago when you found out you were doing this programme that Paul wanted you to be up to 50 miles a week before the programme started, when the programme starts in the low 40's.  Is Paul going to add in the odd 2nd run do you think to 'tweak' the plan?

  • HH - 650 mins is just under 11 hours, which I would think is about right for a top level triathlete.

    Perhaps if JBFAR needs to run more than the flimsy looking schedule suggests, then she needs to be thinking about running surfaces - i.e. soft off road ones rather than tarmac.  Do you do most of your training on or off road JBFAR?

  • That certainly woke me up reading all that but I guess this is what it’s all about. Sub 3 is serious territory.

    I read the sub 3 schedule and to me it sounded pretty daunting and I would certainly hope to go sub 3 after using it but I don’t think that my lifestyle will give me the chance to put it to the test. So I’ll let JBFAR do it for me.  

    Good luck JBFAR with the training and more importantly, with this thread. Listen to your coach, listen to your body and above all else, have fun. I don’t think it will be easy but I think you have every chance of success.  

  • Just to add my views on the RW Sub 3 training schedule debate.... image

    How many people on here have followed the schedule to the book and then failed to get a sub 3 from a marathon?

    Not wanting to go on like a broken record...however, for my first marathon last year I followed the program and didn't miss or add any extra sessions, I completed all the race distances it recommended and met all of the monthly goals:

    • Sub 38 min 10k or sub 30 min 5M (Week 4)
    • Complete a run of around 2 hours 20 mins (Week 7)
    • A sub-1:23 half-marathon (Week 10)
    • A serious taper and a rewarding marathon

    Before I started the schedule I was running at least 35-40 miles per week, over six or seven sessions as suggested.

    I then went on to run a 2:58 marathon, yes the marathon was tough, but I feel the schedule worked just fine. 

    Obviously JBFAR is being sponsored by Lucozade , RW and maybe even Garmin, so she is obliged to follow their schedule. I doubt if it is helping JBFAR confidence with everyone criticising the schedule that she is  possibly required to follow. 

    This post is in no way meant to be offensive or as it says at the bottom I am not trying to slam anyone. I just feel we should let her coach tackle the difficult subject of what is the best course of action regarding the training. All of the advice and experiences from everyone else will no doubt motivate JBFAR and others who are looking for a successful VLM.    

  • Tony, well said mate.

    When I did Abingdon I took lots of advice from BR, Hilly and Tony. Amongst others on the thread. And took bits out of My schedule I had used for FLM this year. I followed a schedule for FLM and failed! 3:02:47. Took what I had learned and bits of advice from other people and got 2:57:08 in Abingdon. At the end of the day I think its mostly down to the individual, you really have to want that sub3image.

    But now I want sub2:55imageimage.

  • marathon schedules are much of  muchness and its not rocket science after all, run some miles and run some more miles. As long as you do the long runs its very much about having no bad luck , having a big pair of NADs and being a "can" rather than a "cant" on the day.

    I've never followed a schedule and dont intend to.

    JBFAR is a decent aflete already and I dont think she'll be out off by folks commenting on her schedule.

  • Tony - I thought one of the points of having a thread like this was so we could comment / analyse and comment critically on the schedule being followed in relation to the individual athlete's needs.  It would be a pretty anodyne thread if all people said were `well done you' or `you're so fast' or `good luck'.  Whilst these things are great encouragement on a project like this, the fact that this is a public thread is that training is up for debate and discussion.

    It's good you've had success following the same plan as JBFAR, which is a positive.  In my experience men in general can get away with fewer miles than women in aiming for a sub-3, but there are always the exceptions.  Tracey Morris got down to 2:33 off not much more than 60mpw, so it also depends on natural ability and fitness background the athlete has.

    I agree it is best to let the coach / mentor tackle the issue of how best to tackle the training, but if RW did not want an open discussion then it would be an email discussion or a thread where only certain people had posting access.  Not seen that before and not read any previous threads like these where comment and analysis of the training was not welcomed.

  • BR - I knew this would happen, its very difficult to say what you mean on forums as such.... all I was trying to put across that the schedule does work. i.e addressing the other side of the discussion, which up to now seems to be very one sided.

    I was just thinking that if I was in JBFAR shoes and about embark on a massive goal, how confident I would be with training schedule if all that was posted was negative about it and I had yet to start it!

    As I said in my previous post

    This post is in no way meant to be offensive or as it says at the bottom I am not trying to slam anyone. I just feel we should let her coach tackle the difficult subject of what is the best course of action regarding the training. All of the advice and experiences from everyone else will no doubt motivate JBFAR and others who are looking for a successful VLM.

    I have gained so much great advice and info from the likes of you and Hilly. The majority of it has improved my running no end. So in answer to your questions yes it is an open forum, were comment and analysis is key to its success, which I look forward to over the next few months.

    Time to put the keyboard down.... of to the club to smash out some k reps....image 

     

  • I don't feel slammed in any way Tonyimage

    There has already been discussion about JBFAR adding second runs to the schedule, so there is already a realisation that the schedule as it stands may need some tweaking.  Liz Yelling has done the same for her mentee on the sub 3:15 challenge thread.

    This will be a really interesting thread as someone with an excellent multi-sport fitness base tries to convert that fitness into marathon specific fitness.

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