Talkback: Lucozade Sport Super Six: Christina (sub-3:00)

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  • Hi Christina

    Good to see you back and hope you had a good Christmas.  I've just finished the first of the Twilight books and it really was the history of glue - couldn't put it down!

    Good luck with your training.  Here's to tomorrow!

  • Swinging by to say good luck for the start of the fun.

    Not that you'll need it though!! When you get over the line under 3, can you start the party at the pub? Mine's a cuppa...

  • Good to see you have been reading a sport science book! Did you get any good nutritional information from it? When you get your training programme from Paul could you forward it onto me please. Thanks.

  • Gareth Turner - Lucozade Sport Scientist wrote (see)

    Good to see you have been reading a sport science book! Did you get any good nutritional information from it? .

    Gareth - one thing I've picked up from the sub 3 thread is the "Aussie 3min" method here and I've used it for FLM 09 and a HM and I was wondering what your views on it were? Have you ever come across it before?
  • image Even if it works is it really worth the injury risk! I wouldn't go near it.
  • I've done it twice and had no worries - we do speed sessions in the form of 800m reps or Yassos so why not do one the day before? Plenty have done it on the sub 3 thread and if going flat out for 3mins plus stuffing your face straightaway can mean the difference between hitting the wall or not hitting the wall I'm prepared to keep doing it.
  • Why would anyone listen to an Aussie? So how did the last few miles go at FLM 09? Most people don't do speed sessions the day before a target marathon. Even if many have tried how do they know this helped as opposed to the last few months of hard training? Obviously it is unlikely this will result in an injury but there is always a risk and it's so close to the big day it seems madness for the hope of saving 2/3 minutes. The Aussies can keep it. 
  • Shadow Face wrote (see)
    So how did the last few miles go at FLM 09?
    Surprisingly well compared to my previous 2 marathons. I didn't feel as though it was a lack of nutrition as I got bored of taking on carbs towards the end and it was the heat I felt that did for me. I can't pinpoint the 3min flat out method as being the reason that I felt better in the final few miles but I won't discount it especially as better runners than me on the sub 3 thread do it as well. We're talking about a peer-reviewed published scientific paper here not some crazy internet loon spouting nonsense.
    Even during my cycling days, going out the day before a big race and doing a few maximal sprints during an easy hour's ride would help to "open up" the system and keep the muscles fresh. I've had a chat with the Danish elite cyclo-cross champion this year and he does a similar method before his big races.
  • I think most peoples 2nd and 3rd maras should be better then their first. They can still keep it. I doubt it's on your schedule.
  • Shadow Face wrote (see)
    I think most peoples 2nd and 3rd maras should be better then their first. They can still keep it. I doubt it's on your schedule.
    It's not but this is why I am asking the question to the sports scientists now as I would like their opinion and also Liz's on this. If they reckon its a no no or they've never done it personally then fairy-dos but a bit of debate is what this is about isn't it?
  • I thought I was debating on behalf of the don't do it side.. I agree I would like to hear the sports scientists and the mentors view but my point is for me it's not worth it, I not saying people who do it are wrong at all. Your point about those on the sub 3 forum doing it does not sell it for me. Speed and common sense are not linked. Disclaimer: not saying those on that forum have no common sense, well maybe one. 

  • Thanks for the link. I'm not familiar with this method but it looks very interesting. I'm going to look into it and will get back to you over the next couple of days.
  • First day, first run achieved at a little under what was called for. So I'm ahead of schedule & ahead of Abo training last year. Maybe I should quit now while I'm ahead? Did a race New Yrs Day & knocked a useful 33secs off last yrs time so in a happy place, although have booked a physio appt Fri for a niggling knee.

    JBFAR, how's the treadmill? I trained for a HM once on a treadmill for 5wks. Was I BORED by the end of it.

    I like the look of the Bramley 20 mentioned earlier. Will prob give that a go instead of a more local 10miler.

    Hope everybody's first day was a successful one.

  • I did the aussie thing pre FLM09 MM and SF - did it the Friday though rather than Saturday.  Absolutely PIGGED out immediately afterwards.  Wonderful scenes  imageimage
  • Jezza_B wrote (see)
    I did the aussie thing pre FLM09 MM and SF - did it the Friday though rather than Saturday.  Absolutely PIGGED out immediately afterwards.  Wonderful scenes  imageimage
    Did you "pig out" scientifically, ie 12g of high GI food/drink per kg of body weight or did you do what I did and just stuff in a LOAD of food until you thought "that'll do?"
  • I
    Matchstick Man wrote (see)
    Did you "pig out" scientifically, ie 12g of high GI food/drink per kg of body weight or did you do what I did and just stuff in a LOAD of food until you thought "that'll do?"


    It was certainly based on the science - as in I worked out what I 'needed' and went for it.  This is what I got through on the day:

    Breakfast (immediately post run) = recovery drink, 4 scotch pancakes with maple syrup, cornflakes with semi skimmed milk, 1 jam do-nut, 2 x croisants with jam
    Lunch = prets choc croisant, 5 x mini croisants at a meeting, bagel with salt beef, melted cheeze, gerkin!
    Evening = Risotto, banana custard with spong pudding, cereal bar

  • I've done the Aussie load a few times without a problem.  It's not a `speed session', it's one 3 min blast which causes no damage.

    In the past I've also done a more traditional deplete for 2 days then reload for 2 with similar results.

    I felt better after the 3 min blast as I tend to bloat if I eat a lot.  I went and bought the amount of carbs I needed in the form of drinks, malt loaf, jaffa cakes etc.  I also did it on the Friday to give the food time to get through my system as my digestion does not always work as quickly as I would like.

  • Scruffmeister - I did 15 miles on the treadmill last week due to the snow and have done so many times before.  I find wearing earphones and listening to music helps to pass the time.  Also, breaking it up into chunks helps - for me it was an easy warm-up, a faster bit in the middle and then an easy cool down.  Although it can be boring it helps to have the different surface to run on for me in the middle of high mileage.

    I too have done the Aussie depletion/reload and although it did me no harm and made no difference to my marathon performance, I found it hard to take in the required carbs in such a short space of time.  I'm one who prefers to load over a couple of days just because too many carbs in that short space of time made me feel sick.

  • Firstly its great to hear that so many have tried alternative nutritional strategies in preparation to marathon running. Jezza_B - I wish that could be my dietary intake everyday, it sounded amazing! I have had a look through the article and also tried to track down the original journal, which appears to be from 2002. The athletes in the study were completing 10 hours of training a week (which seems about right) but were only taking on board 7g/kg lean body mass of carbs which is by no means a high carbohydrate intake for a marathon runner. After 3 mins of intense exercise the amount of carbs was almost doubled so it was inevitable that the amount stored would increase. I found that from a mechanistic point of view this method works, eg. taking onboard that amount of carbs immediately after intense exercise will increase the store in you body. However, from a practical point of view is it worth it?

    I agree with the principles behind it but by following a more traditional method you are likely to have the same outcome without putting your body under additional strain so close to a race. Do the risks out weigh the benefits, in your opinion? As you will know every athlete is an individual, so if it works for you then that's great but not everyone will have success with such an extreme method. The views of an coach/elite athlete would help this debate... My recommendation would be that by all means try it in your training before one of your long runs. I would suggest avoid using such a tactic the day before the big race it self.

  • Cheers for the reply Gareth - you mention that 7g/kg lean body mass of carbs is not a high carb intake for a marathon runner. Could you give us a pointer as to what the ratio should be if the aussie method means you ingest 12g/kg? Also, what would be a typical daily diet for the recommended ration please?
  • indeed, really good response Gareth and another good question from MM!  As you say, Gareth, it does put some 'strain' on the body but I loved the excuse to eat all that lovely food.  More do-nuts less croisants next time for me!

  • So my flight to Manchester airport has been delayed by at least 24 hours! Crazy stuff. So I have an extended holiday!
    Regarding the treadmill, I much prefer to run on road, i do find it a bit mind numbing, but when needs must and all that. And actually once I have run a few miles i get into it a bit more. I don't know how good it is for your technique? I Presume the odd session is fine though, I did quite a lot a while back and found I ran more upwards than forwards! I always put the incline on 1 percent. 
    I did 10 miles today and put a towel over the monitor so I couldn't look at the time and distance every second! I find this to be better than constantly looking at how much longer you have left!

    Gareth: there was a chapter on nutrition in the book, I will have a read of that today. I actually studied sports science and loughborough, but it amazing how much I've forgotton.  I have been told that we should be receiving some lucozade products this week/ next week so I can start experimenting. But I am used to gel and water so I may start with this

    Hope everyone is managing to keep the training up despite the weather?   Take care on the ice.
  • Hope it's somewhere warm where you get to extend your holiday, JBFAR.

    I really don't think the treadmill makes any long term technique changes.  I run on one several times a week as I said on a different post, because it's good to use different surfaces when doing high mileage.  I prefer to run outside, but when doing 80 + miles and not being able to get off road on dark evenings the constant tarmac can be a bit harsh on the legs, the treadmill gives them a break.  Also, didn't Ingrid Kristiansen train on a treadmill due to bad weather?  Oh and quite recently I read that Haile G does too.  What's good for any elite is good for usimage

  • Hmmm, Manchester on Sea.  Interesting choice of holiday destination!.  Safe journey back Christina and hope you're not stuck in the airport for too long
  • Looks like it the cross trainner for me today. we have a foot of snow here!!!!

    How about everyone else?

  • JBFAR - hope you've enjoyed the holiday and that the delays aren't causing you too much stress.

    Hilly/JBFAR - check out this link.  Dan Robinson claims to have run his first marathon in 2:38 off treadmill training only - talented bar-steward .

    SF et al - I don't buy into the Aussie carb load thing either.  Not for runners at our level, anyway. A couple of days of quality scoffing and good fuelling strategy on the day ought to do the trick.  Last year I attended a wedding the day before FLM - in deepest Wiltshire.  Not ideal preparation, either from a rest (given the long drive) or nutrition point of view.  I was suited and booted with a banana in each pocket and a tupperware of cold pasta in the car! I even persuaded Mrs GE to carry a large bag of raisins around in her handbag!

  • TS17, likewise snow here. Not in a hurry to break a leg so hit the turbo instead today. Was supposed to go out on a club road run last night, but the pavements were like an ice rink, as was the track, so we ended up running on the grass in the middle. This is the first spring mara I've trained for & I already hate it!
  • GE. Interesting link. I thought it was going to say Dan Robinson did loads of miles on a treadmill not just 45 minutes sessions for a marathon! That's some going. Perhaps he ran loads of miles in football training? In my footballing days there some 5/6 mile runs and hard intervals involved in football training but no where near enough miles to run a marathon in any time let alone 2.38! 

    10 slow miles in the snow today wishing I had a treadmill. 

  • Thanks for the link, GE.  I wish I could get away with 45 mins sessions to run a half decent marathon like that.

    15 miles on the treadmill again here today too as pavements too bad to run on.

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