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piscator: you have just picked up on one of my main weaknesses- pacing! when i run i often dont know how fast im going unless i wear my garmin. Regarding the pacing i am going by the RW pacing guide I guess which at the moment seems really quick to me..hopefully within time the pace will become more attainable. this is something i do need to work on though and become aware of...so tempo is 10k pace is it??
hopefully i will et some guidance as to whether im too quick or too slow...one thing is though, i do tend to train on a few hills so this will have a lot of bearing on the pace that RW has set won't it?
jbfar: when I've seen the phrase tempo pace/tempo run it seems to correspond to what jokerman calls a lactate threshold run; i.e. a pace that could be sustained for roughly one hour in a race. Which obviously isn't something that could be held for 11/12 miles.
Rather than fuss over words, do you know what the pace of the 11/12 miler is and how it relates to MP ? At least that's an objective measure
JBFAR - no, its a far too tough and off-road one for me. My one build up race is the Mad March Hare 20.
TS - I live at Drayton and work (and swim) at Waterlooville. I swim, bike and run for unattached harriers.
Hi Christina, Hope you manage to get out tomorrow as it sounds that your part of the world is worse hit by the weather, if all else fails go to a swimming pool and do some aqua jogging, yes it is boring but, it is a good workout !
Very interesting reading all the comments about what Christina should or should not be doing ! the general consen'sus seems to be that Christina should be doing more milage!
Christina's average milage before Christmas was around 40 mpw, the first week of the shedule Christina will be running just under 50 mpw by the end of January it will be over 60 mpw,
and then we are going to look at doubling up on certain days, so yes! christina's milage will be increaseing quite considerable, but at the same time I am very conscious not to overload her while's at the same time trying to avoiding to many junk miles, or worse injury or illness !
Christina has set herself a very demanding race progamme some of these races she will not ease down for, what I call "training with a number on" I think its worth mentioning that Christina's Thursday club session is 11 mile hilly, of which the latter part of this will be at tempo,and as time goes on a larger part of this run at tempo
If you google marathon training plans, hundreds of schdules will flash up, and none of them are wrong the key is to find the one that suite you
Good luck in your training guy! keep the forums going !
and Please Please get behind Christina!
just back from a run wrote (see)
so tempo is 10k pace is it??
Alot of folk refer to Latic Threshold runs as tempo. As Jokerman said its between HM & 10k pace. So based on your current 10k time your tempo runs should probably about 6.45 pace per mile and should feel tough but 'comfortable' enough to hold for 5/6 miles. Never heard of an 11 mile tempo run..
X post I see it's not 11 miles tempo that makes more sense.
Me too. I've read some of the stuff on this thread, and okay it's a different league from me but I'd hate to have the pressure she has on her.
Christina is a fabulous runner, I've watched in awe as she flew round the park with her legs not so much running as doing a spinning motion like the cartoon road runner. If anyone can do it, she can. Go girl!
Jokerman wrote (see)
SF...Extended tempos of 11-12miles are fairly common. They can vary in pace depending on how the individual is feeling on the day, and the terrain.
I mean tempo as LT so I think we agree! I would have thought targeting LT is more appropriate than this 'varying tempo paces' for a marathon.
This is turning into a really interesting thread with lots of different ideas on how to achieve a Sub-3 Hour Marathon!!
That sub-3 is not easy, I have only achieved it once (2.59.02) and been so close a couple of times - 3.00.23 being the closest!!
My approach is based on 3 quality sessions per week; one long run; and the rest steady/recoverey/rest.
Tues and Thurs are Club nights; Tuesday are based around measured distances eg., mile, kilometeres, two miles, hills etc., to help keep an eye on pace and to record improvements. When I want to increase the distance, I will either have an easy run in the morning or add a longer w/up or cool-down. Thursdays are on road, with either timed efforts or a Tempo run of around 75minutes (total running time). Again if I want to add extra distance I will run to the Club.
Saturdays are either hills or another interval-type session; and Sundays are the long run which I will build up to 22 miles. I will also run several races in the build-up.
I really enjoy the speed session, I even managed 10x600meters in the snow this morning Of course, to run a good marathon requires endurance and during the next few months my long Sunday-runs will be the key-session. I'm planning to run 16-18 miles tomorrow in my off-road shoes - since 17th December I have ran in these almost every day as I have decided to challenge the snow
I hope everyone has a good run tomorrow
We are fully behind JBFAR* - and now we have a bit more detail, then I agree the schedule looks better.
Not sure about 8 to 16M of MP ruuning in training. 10M at MP is wayyyy harder than most people give it credit, so if you can do 16 then your MP isnt fast enough.
Nifty and swifty - now I realise you are a filly, your name doesnt bother me so much. I agree, sub 3 for a lady is fair effort and equivalent to a man going 2:45.
Although I hope that she's about 10 mins behind me on race day.
Certainly do.No idea on what I'd recommend, MP running is hard though and I reckon I'd struggle do more than about 7 or 8 M at MP in training myself. But I was talking about training as against training with a number on.
I do 20M at approx MP as a one off but thats with a number on.But rarely do any MP type stuff, except for pushing the last 5M of some of the 20 Milers - when they get to the "shelling peas" stage.
May just be me then, cos I have no schedule let alone a decent one and I just run on feel and make it up as I go along.
Naive indeed, I'm no runner dude. I just run a bit. But, I've done a couple of marathons off not much more than steady running.I've never done 7 or 8M at MP in training, but have done 5 or 6 and so could do a bit more.
JBFAR's schedule looks a lot beefier now she is following what the coach at Winchester is organising, rather than the RW bespoke one. I'm glad that's allowed.
Paul - you mention the danger of `junk miles'. What is a junk mile, and how did you avoid doing them when you were running 100+mpw?
Re. long MP runs - one as a dress rehersal is enough, as TR says. Personally I go up to 10m, very occasionally HM. Any longer than that and they take too long to recover from and compromise other important sessions.
Paul - we are all behind JBFAR, which is why we are so interested in this thread and the training she has been told to do, be it from the published sub 3 Garmin schedule, yourself as level 4 coach or her club coach.
JBFAR - hope you enjoyed your 12 miles in the snow. That's what I've just got back from and have to say it's mentally sapping at times. I did 20 in it last weekend, but today I think I wore the wrong shoes (should've put my trail shoes on) and my feet kept slipping backwards so I felt every step was more like two steps, does that mean I can log 24 miles
Tony - thanks for asking about my training. It's been going well, I did 100 miles last week as I was off work due to snow and able to get in 3 long runs. This week will be just 70 as I've missed a few runs, but hoping to stick to around 80 most weeks if I can, which will include 2 key sessions of V02 work and tempo. Hope your beach run was good. Was it a race?
how did everyones LSR go?
Well done Hilly on your 12 miler- what kind of pace do you do it at?
My 12 miler was good-freezing but good! I felt quite strong at the end which is always a good sign. I did only managed 8.22 min miles and should be going 7.41. But I did 3 miles on road then went off road and the snow was pretty deep and powdery and some sharp inclines so not ideal for speed!
My nutrition for the run: breakie was porridge at around 6am (still have jet lag) the toast at 7am then out of door at 8am, I took some water in a hand held bottle but didnt drink it all (naughty i know) I also had a gel at around 40 mins (Go gel and Lucozade gels havent arrived yet) as soon I got home I went to make a protein shake however i didnt have any milk as a result of the panic buying that went on at the local shop yesterday! so i had a Lucozade protein recovery bar which went down well. After a shower had some toast, and some water then for lunch an egg sarnie and a muller rice. How does that sound Gareth?
All this talk about pacing makes me even more aware that I need to be more clued up at what pace i need to be going etc. Hopefully Paul will be able to advise me on this.
I am very happy with Januarys schedule that Paul as set for me and as he said I will build up miles gradually, the worse thing would be if i broke due to increasing too soon and couldn't train consistently. Every day of that 16 weeks counts!
Nifty &Swifty Your program looks similar to mine? How many marathons have you done. 2.59.02 is a great time!! 3.00.23 is just gutting if aiming for sub 3!! only 24 seconds but such a massive difference to your time!
You must sign up before the end of today (sign up deadline) and can backdate your mileage from 1/1/10.[b]RWUK v RWUSA thread link (instructions in 1st post)[/b]
JBFAR - I never really worry about what pace I'm running at as each day will depend on what my body feels like from the day before. Sometimes my long runs will be at 7:30m/m other times at 8/m/m and occasionally slower than that like in the sort of conditions we have at present. Last week, it took us 2:59 to do 20 miles in the snow, which is close to 9m/m! Today we ran about 8.30 m/m. It's difficult to run in the thick snow we have here, so worrying over pace is just not worth it.
The only runs that I try and make sure I'm running at the right pace for my goal is the 2 key sessions I do in the week. I will also be using races as training runs to get in some near to MP work. Otherwise it's run lots of miles, some slow, some fast and enjoy the process.
Which race did you get your 10k and HM pbs at? What did you do to get in that shape in the past? I always believe if you've been in that sort of shape once it's easier to get back there.
Christina or JBFAR, you sound like you're pretty much at my level or thereabouts anyway. I ran 3.08.59 in 2008 altho without an outift, lol
2008 was my 4th marathon and I basically got down to 3.08.59 with just lots of running including 6 runs of 20+ miles. Everyone has probably told you or will tell you that the key is to look at what you're good at and what you're not good at or need to do more of. I did some very, very basic speed work on a treadmill but it wasn't structured at all.
So I don;t really think endurance is a key issue for me altho I will probably do more running at the key points than I did in 2008.
After talking to old running heads at my gym, reading sub 3 forum on here and own analysis from years gone by the I'm focusing on for this marathon are:
Apart from those things I think I'm just generally healthier, jesus I had been know to have the odd fag with a pint a few years back and I'm much more focused with diet now.
Sounds to me like you're going to be pretty close or go under comfortably
Hi Christina, I am glad you managed to get your 12 miler in, and the fact that you managed to finish feeling strong is a bonus in these condition, well done ! lets hope the weather condition start to improve, it above freezeing here(Suffolk) for the first time in what seems weeks! so lets hope we are though the worst!!
JM, BR junk miles you are quite right BR run 100+ mpw without doing some junk miles, you don't! yes there are day when the training has caught up on you and you feel tired but you still have that long run to do, after all thats what marathon training is all about, the problem is when you are tired day in day out and the key sessions start to suffer !
Probally my fault, I should have said not to many junk miles, rather than just "junk miles"
I would rather Christina ran 60 miles of quality, that 90 miles of Junk, everytime !
Hilly Your last posting about paceing was spot on, listing to your body do not get to bogged down with what pace you should be doing every run at, as long as the key session are at the right pace ! those words listing to your body, I wish I had a £1 everytime my coach said that to me !
Great thread guy's!
There seem to be three schools of thought regarding junk miles:
1) Miles run at a pace too slow in relation to current fitness.
2) Miles run in the "no-mans land" between easy and tempo (a la Daniels Running Formula, 1st edition) - although I believe Daniels has slowly changed his position on this and as we are talking marathon training this is probably not relevant as that is where MP resides!
3) There is no such thing as a junk mile as long as the mile is performed with proper form.
It seems to me that the Kenyans training is strong anecdotal evidence against 1 and 2. The question I suppose is at what point are so many miles done that they become detrimental to miles prescribed in a particular range or zone.
That's why I like the Lydiard approach - have a number in mind of miles / minutes in an approximate aerobic pace range which could be termed core mileage. Once you have ensured you can get these in at the required quality add as many other miles at any speed as you can as supplemental mileage.
Paul - at what pace does a mile become a "junk mile" for jbfar? That still remains undefined. I assume you have a pace in mind.