Talkback: Lucozade Sport Super Six: Richard (sub-3:15)

Matchstick Man

CC2 - Speedy Goth wrote (see)

MM, if you don't run or ride to work how do you get there?

quite. I only get to work by either running or riding so am seeking clarification from Liz.

[Deleted User]

MM, some tweaking still required then to fit in the XC and work trips. 

Schedule looks very similar to the "sub 3 RW Ultimate schedule" mileage wise, and scheduling of the sessions tempo, long etc.

 

Hilly

Seen better days posted... 

Sue - I did briefly stumble across MG's Hard Training Thread.  It seemed like good spectator sport but extreme masochism on the part of the participants!

A bit unfair on those who regularly posted some fantastic results and advice I think!  I think what you find is the people who posted on there were the kind who wanted to reach their maximum potential, whatever that took and this does require 'hard training' and with this comes inevitible setbacks with injuries occasionally.  Most could not follow MG's 2:09 training plan but liked to 'tweak' it to fit in with their lives such as what Liz has done for MM with MG's generic plan.  The 'Hard Training Thread' was also much more than following the plans, as many on there did not follow them, it was about the advice and cameraderie and the fact MG gave a lot of his time to answer many questions.

[Deleted User]

MM - you mention an `easy' run of 7:52m/m @ 166 HR.  I find two things surprising about that:-

1.  The easy run HR.  What is your max HR?  Mine is quite high at 200bpm and 166 would be a high aerobic effort for me.

2.  The pace of the `easy' run which is only about 20 secs / mile slower than your goal marathon pace.

What is the range of paces you use on different runs?

Hi to Liz - Hilly and I passed you (then you passed us) last Tuesday morning running from Bournemouth to Poole along the seafront.  It looked like you were training a young runner doing some strides etc.  At the turnaround point you said to us to have a good run.  We then went all the way to the end of the seafront past Boscombe then all the way back to Bournemouth pier for 15m.

The next day we were sat in Wetherspoons reading about your Christchurch 10k comeback in AW and you ran past with a couple of guys!

[Deleted User]

schedule looks good MM. I don't think Paul is writing a specific one for me- just the RW sub 3 program. Does yours differ much from the RW sub 3.15 program?

Matchstick Man

just back from a run wrote (see)

schedule looks good MM. I don't think Paul is writing a specific one for me- just the RW sub 3 program. Does yours differ much from the RW sub 3.15 program?

The only difference so far is that Liz is trying to cut down on the mileage I rack up going to work and back. She's trying to keep to the schedule as tightly as possible, as are the other coaches

Barnsley Runner wrote (see)

MM - you mention an `easy' run of 7:52m/m @ 166 HR.  I find two things surprising about that:-

1.  The easy run HR.  What is your max HR?  Mine is quite high at 200bpm and 166 would be a high aerobic effort for me.

2.  The pace of the `easy' run which is only about 20 secs / mile slower than your goal marathon pace.

What is the range of paces you use on different runs?

BR - That run was a run from my mum's back to our house on Christmas Eve. It was all over the shop in terms of pace/effort as I turned off my Garmin whilst I was in the park so I could do work on my form. This skewed up my overall AV HR and overall pace as I was recovering on the second half of the run.
My MHR is 199bpm which was recorded in a lab/treadmill sssion a couple of years ago.
I normally run marathons / PMP sessions at 170bpm which (when on form) works out at about 7min miling or a bit under.
I ran the Ashby 20 and Banbury 15 this year at 172bpm AV HR and came out with 7m06s and 7m01s pace respectively.
HM pace / effort I'm still trying to work out - my 87min PB came 2 weeks after London this year and I recorded figures of 186bpm / 194bpm for AV HR and MHR yet most other HM's I've done are in the 175bpm range.
10 mile pace is 181bpm (nuneaton 10 this year) and gave me 64m02s (PB)
10k pace is 177-181bpm and gives me long 39min / short 40min times
5 miles is 184-188bpm for short 31min times
5k is 184-188bpm for mid 18min times

Long steady runs come out at 160-164bpm and are in the region of 7m42-7m51s pace for 20milers with the boys (Ay Up Me Duck and 2 others) but running 13.1 miles with Boingy a couple of weeks ago came out at 158bpm / 8m06s pace.
I suspect that my runs with AUMD over the past 2 years have been a tad too fast compared to target pace but they' ve got easier as my fitness and target time has come on. I think that one of the main things I will be looking at in the next 17 weeks will be running my LSR at a slower pace compared to usual.
My target time for VLM 10 is the same as it was for Abo 09 - 3h05 to 3h09. This was what was written on my application for the Super Six competition. I ran a local HM 2 weeks prior to Abo as a PMP session and held the brakes on all the way round so that I recorded 92mins at an AV HR of 166bpm. This is why I think I can go for 3h05min with confidence on APril 25th 2010.

Matchstick Man

BR - I don't have any data from FLM 08 with regards to AV HR but I do have pace data which shows target 3h15 pace was on up till 16 miles then started to slow down and then went bad from 20miles onwards with 8min+ miling and then a 10min mile at mile 25 before a tortuous 9min mile for the last mile.
I did Nottingham 08 at 173bpm AV HR  and my pace was ok (mid 7min miling) until mile 20 then I slowed down to 8min miling  and got progressively slower for the last 6 miles ending on 9m21s pace.
FLM 09 was better in that I held an AV HR of between 168-171 all the way through save for mile 4 (177bpm) mile 5 and 6 (both 174bpm) and my pace was all starting with 7mins save for mile 25 and 26 (8m17s and 8m10s pace).
I think the reason for me having a better day at FLM 09 was more endurance training (more miles) and using the Aussie carbo-load technique I found from the sub-3 thread. The latter really helped load up the glycogen stores more than normal and it was a shame I couldn't prove the theory of more training again at Abo 09.

[Deleted User]

MM - you seem to have a good handle on your HR data.  With virtually the same max HR as you, my optimum races have come as follows:-

5k - 193-196 HR
10k - 188-190HR
10m - 186-187 HR
HM - 184-186 HR
Marathon - 175-180HR

Those are the ranges for most of the race.  There's no reason with the right sort of training yours should not be similar.

I think your 10k time looks in need of revision in terms of effort and pace in relation to your 10m time!

Matchstick Man

BR - I know from lurking on the sub-3 thread that you love to geek out on stuff like this! I do admire TR and his left foot/right foot philosophy but I lean more towards data/number crunching as a back-up to running on feel.
As for 10k's - tell me about it! I only do two a year and I struggle mentally with the distance. My 5 mile PB is 31m20s (2009) and my 6 mile PB from last year is 37m53s yet I've only gone under 40mins once for a 10k with 39m31s. I really should be further on with that distance, I know I should. I don't know why I can push it for 5mile or 6 mile or 10miles but struggle with putting the hurt on for 6.2 - bizarre

TR

MM - I'd stick with BR (and teh number crunching) if I were you, he ran 15M with me last year and then he sped off up the road during the next 5. Endurance will always be my limiter so I just chug out miles in a low science, low pressure kind of way.

Matchstick Man

TR wrote (see)

MM - I'd stick with BR (and teh number crunching) if I were you, he ran 15M with me last year and then he sped off up the road during the next 5. Endurance will always be my limiter so I just chug out miles in a low science, low pressure kind of way.

But yet your approach still yields you a sub 3hr marathon time and a bliddy respectable HIM debut doesn't it? Just goes to show there is more than one way to skin a cat

TR

agreed, you need to tergat your weaknesses at my numpty level.

Sue C

MM/BR - my HR stats are pretty indentical too. I have slowed the longer runs down a bit now as I was getting towards MP + 30/40 secs for all my longer runs for FLM 09. I am now finding I am less tired and working at a lower effort for all my steady running. Of course it remains to be seen whether that translates!

edit - that was hoped for MP! I was faster on a couple of longer runs than my marathon time on the day!!!

Minni

MM - good luck with your training.  I'm not doing the marathon this year but will keep dropping in to see how you're getting on.  

I remember seeing you at the start of this year's marathon and agin on route but will have to spot you on TV this time.

Well done so far!

[Deleted User]

Pixie have you worked out your working heart rate? You need to take your resting HR and take that away from max, which gives you your working heart range - my resting's about 43, max is about 180, so my range is 137. You then take your % of that then add your resting HR back on - so 70% of 137 is 96, add on 43 and you get 139. A simple 70% of my max is 126, so perhaps a similar problem to you?

Matchstick Man

Minni wrote (see)

MM - good luck with your training.  I'm not doing the marathon this year but will keep dropping in to see how you're getting on.  

I remember seeing you at the start of this year's marathon and agin on route but will have to spot you on TV this time.

Well done so far!

*penny drops* ! Was it you who shouted me on en route this year and did I turn round and offer you a drink? I haven't (until now) worked out who it was.

Hash

I know having a very low RHR is a sign of fitness, but what does it mean if you've got a low RHR and a really high heart rate when running? 

I've lent a mate of mine my old 305 as he's training for Edinburgh.  His RHR's in the 40s and it was up in the 160s when we were only slowly mincing across the snow at less than 10 minute mile pace.  Even mine was only 126 and I'm not anywhere near as fit (or as young) as he is

[Deleted User]

I'm not sure that a low RHR is necessarily a sign of anything other than a low RHR - it's generally true that the fitter you get the lower your RHR is likely to be, but that's more a relative thing than absolute - there's a lot of other factors that determine it. Pixie - your HR range seems very wide. Have you had your max tested or is that what your HR monitor tells you? I reckon my max is somewhere around 175-180 (and coming down with the passing years...) but my HRM sometimes tells me I've hit 200+ - yet as I was about to throw up at the end of a hard 10k this week it was only c170.

[Deleted User]

Andy - your HRM was probably playing up when it said 200 - mine has shown 240 in the past!

I agree that RHR and MHR are what you are born with - a lower RHR to the next person does not mean you are fitter, but a lower RHR than you used to have does mean that.

I have quite a large range - 45bpm up to 200bpm but it does not mean I'm fitter than someone with a RHR of 55bpm.

[Deleted User]

I'm sure it was playing up - Garmin have a bit of a reputation for spiking early in a run, which is a shame as it buggers up the average. I've never had mine tested but if I look at the end of hard intervals sessions or races the top is about 175 - so I suspect under "test to falling over" conditions I might 180, so that's what I work on.

[Deleted User]

I guess you're just built that way then, Pixie - most people's WHR range comes down naturally with age, and RHR goes up and down with fitness levels - I have a mate who was an awesomely good fell runner and his range was similar to yours when he was at the heights of his powers, but as he got into his 40s his RHR stayed low but his max came down from over 200 to 190 or so.

[Deleted User]

I'm really no expert at all, Pix, but I'd have thought so - I wear a HR monitor but tend to use it after the run to see what it was doing at times of perceived effort. I did a LSR the other day when I could happily have held a conversation as I was running along (if I had any friends...) but my HRM was showing 170+ - and this wasn't a short lived spike at the start, it went on for a mile or two, before coming down to the 130-140 I'd expect for that sort of effort.

Effort levels always used to be how the various paces were defined anyway - LSR pace was where you could hold a conversation fairly easily etc.

Hash

I was wondering the same thing, have you managed to lock your running shoes in a cupboard and lose the key for a week?