Talkback: Lucozade Sport Super Six: Richard (sub-3:15)

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  • Evil P, sounds like a poor connection, sometimes my HRM read 210 plus just after starting a slow plod. You need lots of savila on the connections and it will stand a better chance of providing accurate data from the start. It should be more consistent after 2/3 miles as sweat will do the job instead.

  • SBD.SBD. ✭✭✭

    Hilly - No  disrespect meant to the participants of the Hard Training Thread.  Clearly you all got a lot out of it.  I would have preferred the emphasis to be on "SMART" rather than "HARD"!

  • Smart is hard.  For some of us it can be hard to do the smart thing and back off when neededimage

    Yes it would be interesting to know how MM is getting on preparing to begin the schedule.

  • Evening all, just checking in after another busy family day. Must say that it's great to not have any pressure to go out for a run and to relax. Today was d-day in terms of going out for a run but a combination of cack weather and keeping busy with the wife and children meant I didn't get out for a run today.
    i've had essentially 10 days off from any exercise (21st to today) with only a 4 miler last week to break up the rest period. Last night I was up with the wife as our youngest was being a bugger-chops and didn't settle until gone 2 a.m. Doesn't make for a happy wife I can tell you!
    Hopefully I can get out for a few easy runs over the next couple of days and try out the "easy" pace that the schedule says I should do. I tend to run on my own at 7m00 - 7m30s pace so being forced to run at over 8min pace should be interesting!
  • Good luck MM. 10 days off running should help with being forced to run at over 8 min mile pace image
  • Shadow Face wrote (see)
    Good luck MM. 10 days off running should help with being forced to run at over 8 min mile pace image


    arf! image

    December stats: 78.64 miles consisting of 20 runs overall and 3 bike commutes
    Week 1 - 15.03miles (5 runs, 2 bike commutes)
    Week 2 - 31.43 miles ( 7 runs, 1 bike commute)
    Week 3 - 28.15 miles (7 runs, 1 bike commute)
    Week 4 - 4.03 miles (woot woot!)

    That makes 1327 mile for the year
    Jan 130 miles
    Feb 127 miles
    Mar 152 miles
    Apr 103 miles
    May 28 miles
    Jun 82 miles
    Jul 145 miles
    Aug 208 miles
    Sept 134 miles
    Oct 59 miles
    Nov 80 miles
    Dec 79 miles

  • Hi Richard!

    I've just been catching up with your thread after your busy but restful (if that's possible!) christmas period...

    Enjoy the slower sessions to help get you back into the swing of things and perhaps we can have a proper catch up next week,

    Happy new year!

     Emma

  • Just looked at my paces and I can change them from being extrapolated from 3h15 target to 3h05 so now my paces look like this:

    JogRecovery - 8m28s
    Easy - 8m07s
    Slow - 7m54s
    Steady / PMP - 7m03s
    Threshold / HM pace - 6m46s (my 87min time suggests 6m40s)
    Fast 10k pace - 6m29s (my 39min 10k time suggests 6m21s)
    Fast 5k pace - 6m13s (my 18min 5k time suggests 6m00s)
    Above 5k pace - that's just balls out innit? image

    So any runs now on will be run at 7m54s - 8m07s until the plan starts on the 4th

  • AndyVAndyV ✭✭✭
    Hi MM. Just a quick post to wish you happy new year fella and best of british for VLM 2010. Bring it on!
  • MM - so those are 3:05 paces you've got there? Sounds about right for me - did my (lumpy) long run this week at 7:37, which felt ok - the hardest runs for me abre going to be longish MP ones - still feels very fast for training!
  • Hi MM. Interesting to see the paces you've been set. I've been targetting my threshold and steady runs at those kind of paces. I'm doubtful that I could maintain them for a HM or M yet and as for the 5k and 10k paces - forget it! I take it those are target fast 5k and 10k paces too? Similarly, I could manage a few mile or half-mile reps, but not the full target distance. Will four months training be enough to make up the difference? We shall see. Happy New Year and best of luck.
  • How do you find out those paces MM? Is there a calculator thingie on here? I'd like to do the same for 3.25.

    Not that I'm doing any running atm. I'm inadvertantly joining you in the festive rest. Damn cough!

  • Shouldn't RW know better? The paces relative to HR are a percentage of Max HR. This should be Working HR. 

  • Gul Darr - I find it easier to race at those paces or do them in group sessions (club nights) than try them on my own. Hence why my HM, 10k and 5k are faster than a 3h05 marathon suggests - you simply go faster with a number pinned on. I know your 10k time is way out compared to your training times for 10k etc and I reckon when you actually race you'll be surprised at what you can actually do when the clock is ticking.

    I actually went out for a run today - SHOCKA!. I did 4.43 miles, 95% of it was off-road in the local parks. For those of you who race Birmingham League races it's Coundon Park that I did 2 laps of as I live round the corner from it. It was as wet, boggy and slow as it is on race day.
    I successfully kept it down to 7m57s pace for a "slow" paced run but my AV HR was sky high: 168bpm image and it did feel harder than it should have done. Ah well, still time to snap back into marathon training next week with hopefully a couple more runs over the next few days.

  • Just sidling in to wish MM and his speedy chums a very happy new yearimage

  • And from me, Happy New Year MM x
  • MM - if `slow' pace (my run today was about 30 secs / mile slower than that btw) is coming out at nearly 85% of your max HR, would it not be better to start from where you are, rather than where you want to be in 4 months' time and re-extrapolate those paces based on current fitness levels after 3 very low mileage months?
  • Barnsley Runner wrote (see)
    MM - if `slow' pace (my run today was about 30 secs / mile slower than that btw) is coming out at nearly 85% of your max HR, would it not be better to start from where you are, rather than where you want to be in 4 months' time and re-extrapolate those paces based on current fitness levels after 3 very low mileage months?
    BR - Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. I'm not necessarily fussed about HR/pace correlation as HR is a dependant variable whereas pace isn't. I run more on feel / perceived effort and only glance at my Garmin to keep an eye on things to make sure I'm on the right lines.
    I feel like I can "snap back" into training within about 4 weeks once I start:
    As an example: Jan 09 I started my campaign on Jan 1st with a 5 miler at the tail end of illness and recorded 33m01s which was 90secs off my then PB. I then tried a 40min PMP session at the end of the week and although I made 7m17s pace, my HR was sky high at 182bpm (more like 5k effort). It should be 170bpm
    Week 2, I managed 13.1 mile for a LSR at 7m41s pace but HR again was high at 170bpm
    By week 3 I had done a 38 mile week in week 2 and was down to 174bpm for an hour at PMP - 174bpm.
    By week 5 my PMP pace was down to 7m12s and my LSR was 20miles at 7m42s pace and only 164bpm AV HR
    By week 7 I was sat at 7m13s pace for a PMP session and only 169bpm so bang on the money for sub 3h15
    By week 17 of my 18 week plan I was down to 6m54s pace for my PMP sessions at 170bpm and had recorded a short 19min 10k and my first 39min 10k.

    Bit of a long winded answer isn't it? Ah well, it shows that where I start is immaterial as once I get into things I can pick up the pieces fairly quickly and get them slotted into place. If I can do the above on only a 3/4 run per week schedule and self coached then imagine what I can do with the backing of Liz Yelling and a schedule of 5/6 days with the odd double thrown in as well?

    Tonight's run: 45min05s run at what felt like easy pace. 8m35s pace and AV HR 157bpm (5.25miles). Felt nice and easy but v boring - I really struggle with running slower than 8min pace!
  • HillyHilly ✭✭✭

    Sounds to me maybe sub 3:15 is too easy a target for you and maybe you should be aiming for sub 3.

    I really struggle with running slower than 8min pace!

    Necessary in my opinion if you don't want to pick up an injury. 

    If I can do the above on only a 3/4 run per week schedule and self coached then imagine what I can do with the backing of Liz Yelling and a schedule of 5/6 days with the odd double thrown in as well?

    Wouldn't it be better to increase the number of miles on the single runs first before doing doubles? 

  • Hi MM, just popping over from your old home at sub-3.15 to see how you're doing and sticking to the rule of no lurking. 

    Of course you're not doing much yet but will be, like us all, soon enough.  Good luck with it all mate, I know the 3.05-ish that you looked on target for at Abo (if you'd not got ill just before & therefore not started).  You know of course you're welcome to pop home for a chat whenever you like.  Keep on keeping on fella

  • Pace is also a dependant variable, depending on your fitness as you have shown in the stats you've posted up.

    7:17 pace was 182 HR and 5k effort at the start.

    6:54 pace was 170 HR and Marathon effort by the end.

    So those paces were dependant on your level of fitness at those times.

    HR is a constant as whatever pace it brings, it is still the same level of effort in relation to your level of fitness at that time.  So if you run everything to a set preplanned pace no matter how fit or fresh you are, you could be running everything to hard and not training your body to burn fat as a fuel as you're accessing higher levels of glycogen at the higher effort levels.

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    blimey ! this place is getting too scientific for me
  • Hilly wrote (see)

    Wouldn't it be better to increase the number of miles on the single runs first before doing doubles? 


    You are aware of course that doubles for me are necessary as I run to and from work? It's not that I'm showing off, it's that if I don't do them I don't get to or from work.
    Sub 3 is not an attainable target for me, not unless I do well under 85mins for a HM, and I'm only on 87mins now. Jezza B's rule no 1 - don't get greedy with your targets, even if your pace *may* point to something you can't or haven't practiced to achieve. That's why I went into FLM 09 with my 'A' target of 3h09 and my 'B' target of 3h12 and my last target of '3h14m59'. Unfortunately, the heat on the day put paid to both my A and B targets and even my last target looked unlikely. It then became a matter of survival for me.
    As Jezza B points out, I *could* have gone for 3h05 at Abo if I hadn't got ill the week before. Even then I was realistic to know that a fade after 20 miles could have taken me to 3h09/3h10m if I hadn't got ill. I'm aiming at sub 3h15 on April 25th and if that means I target 3h05 but then crash and burn to 3h14m59s then so be it. I'm just trying to do everything in my power to get as far under 3h15 as possible

  • Barnsley Runner wrote (see)

    So if you run everything to a set preplanned pace no matter how fit or fresh you are, you could be running everything to hard and not training your body to burn fat as a fuel as you're accessing higher levels of glycogen at the higher effort levels.


    Scenario A - I aim to run 7m20s pace for all my PMP sessions, irrespective of HR, over 16 weeks of the schedule. My fitness increases and my AV HR for each session decreases for the effort required so that I rock up on the day and manage to barely scrape 3h14m59 if I'm lucky.
    Scenario B - I aim to run 170bpm AV HR for all my PMP sessions, irrespective of pace, over the 16 weeks of the schedule. My fitness increases and my average speed for each sessions increases for the same amount of effort so that I rock up on the day and go sub 3h15min in style.

    tbh, I prefer scenario B and if or when I get cardiac drift in the latter stages of the marathon I can either push on and dig deep or I can hang on to the same HR and slow down a bit and still come home with my targetted sub 3h15 time.

    Marvellous. Scenes.

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