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Talkback: Lucozade Sport Super Six: Richard (sub-3:15)
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Morning MM & Sue C,
Just my view but planning for a little fade is just realistic for most isn't it? Most of us try out hoping for an even pace but succome to a slow down to various degrees. I bet there are not many Jezza's around! Even world record holder types fade a little in the last half of a marathon.
MM, Do you know when does Liz Y starts mentoring on this forum? I see 'Steve marathon coach' is already posting and engaging alot for those under his wing.
Shadow Face
I agree with you to a certain extent, however (assuming the correct training in in your legs) then I do think that if you correctly pace the run you can minimise how much you do 'fade' in the last few miles. I paced my first marathon really well and kept that pace until the last two/three miles when it started pelting down and the lack of (long term) miles showed. I lost about half a minute I think.
FLM 08 I ran the middle section too quickly and suffered big style in the final 6 miles and FLM 09 I don't think there were enough miles in my legs and of those, too many were speed based. That and the heat didn't make for a good experience!
If you lose significant amounts of time in the last few miles then I think the pace wasn't right from the start.
fame at last! Name checked in 3 posts and at least 2 of 'em were suggesting I sometimes talk sense
actually, my rule is "have a plan, it doesn't really matter what it is, just make sure you have one". Of course, as a precursor to that you should have a target ...... not very scientific I know but that's basically it. MM's had both for a long time, and now he's got te chance to be mentored by someone who's been there and done it, I think he should nail it come VLM. Frankly, I think he would nail it without Liz, but he chose to come on this public journey and for better or worse this is where he is. I am sure he'll get plenty out of the whole experience.
What I've learnt on the forums is that we are all different and will have different ways of approaching things. The 'sensible targets' approach really works for me and I love to try to encourage others to at least consider it.
The fact that as SF mentions "there are not many Jezza's around" really helps my "increased effort for same speed" approach as that really becomes far easier to achieve thanks to the fact most others take the "set a dream target and go out a bit quicker knowing most people slow down" approach. "Better to be an overtaker than overtaken" (from TR) really works for my mentality - I used to do the 'hang on' approach but tbh, I not mentally tough enough to do that - once I start to slow I really struggle. I know others who can make the hanging on approach work for them cos they're tough (although I still think these folk would achieve more if they did it my way
). Final point on my way is to acknowledge it has a weakness - 'successful' execution of an even pace/negative split plan may mean you've left some seconds/minutes on the road my setting too conservative a plan. I'm happy enough with that though as there's always next time, and there's more likely to be a next time if you've enjoyed it this time.
So my golden rules would be:
1. have a target (and possibly a 2nd prize target)
2. have a race day plan (and possibly a plan
3. have a training plan (optional)
4. at least once in your marathon history - preferably quite early on - try to run an even paced race, it's the most fun way to do it!
Happy running all
nice ones AFE and Sue - it helps of course to have a 'conservative' target.
As you guys know (cos I can bore on this for hours once started) I got lucky with finding this method in FLM08 - my pb was 3.11 from FLM04 and I felt confident I was in better shape, probably around 3.05, but it had been a long time since I'd run 3.11 and that had involved fade in final 6 miles. So set out to go through half in 1.32 "knowing" I would slow in H2. Halfway passed in 1.32, 2nd half in 1.30.
In FLM09 2.59.59 was the target so decided to give myself a slight cushion at half way. Went through in 1.28.20 (10 secs inside schedule) but ran 2nd half in 1.28.31.
In each case it turned out I achieved my "secret dream" results, but the point was I did my very best to put these dreams to the back of my mind rather than have the pressure of going for something I felt had a low probability of success
I don't do adding RJ !
AFE, I got round to googling the abbreviation of BHAG - very good!
I am really confused about what finishing time and pace I should be targetting. I was thinking that the first few miles would be a bit slower than target (say around 7:45), then try and settle into 3:15 pace or just under(7:20-7:26), and if all is going well try and pick it up a bit more for the last 8 (7:00).
I'll support the "Jezza is a guru" theme - couldn't agree more with the sentiment expressed in his post. IMHO you have to have something left for the last few miles - the psychological boost of overtaking going along the Embankment is priceless compared to struggling along and feeling as though everyone's going past you. Someone (TR again?) has said that the marathon is a 20 mile warm up followed by 10K race - very wise words.
All this is why I'm now a complete convert (thanks again GE) to the discipline of progressive long runs - 14 miles at "normal" LSR pace / HR picking up to PMP for the last 6. Hard but well worth it, both for the physical benefit and also to give you the confidence that you can run at that pace even if your legs are tired.
SF - hardly a training run, but I agree it's a fairly conservative target, which is why if things go well I may well have a crack at sub-3 - but if training's not great, or if the conditions on the day aren't good (I do seem to attract tropical weather for marathons) then I have something to aim for. I did a fairly lumpy 18m the other day with c1900' of ascent in it at 7:35 pace, which isn't too far adrift of 3:15 pace and to be fair it felt comfortable - but as we all know at 18m you're just approaching half way!
Do you have a similar option? This is why 90mins (or a tad under) is such a good pointer for those of us gunning for sub 3h15. If we can do that then adding on 6 or so minutes to it for a halfway time in VLM should point to being able to do the same for the second half assuming we're sufficiently trained endurance wise. This is where the 5 x LSR = 100miles comes in. My schedule is 18/20/20/20/22 which will give me the required endurance training that I can back up with a planned 92min halfway time.
I've asked Liz to give me a mini taper going into Dorney Lake so I can have a shot at a HM PB, hopefully sub 87mins
Gul Darr - plenty of time before you need to come up with a plan, although even I would be amazed if anyone could pick up the pace like that in last 8m of marafun (expect the elites, when trying to win races rather than pb them, but they'd be 2min per mile quicker throughout!).
I'm assuming this will be your 1st but my advice would be to (a) bag the long runs (5x20 is a good start) (b) try to do at least a couple of races in Feb/March - a half and a longer one ( a 20m is ideal if you can find one close enough) (c) assess at end of March what your race day goal and race day plan should be.
Heard my name.
I would plan to (and expect to) fade slightly myself. Its much better to be an overtaker than the overtaken, but even if you're running a small +ve split then you are still being the overtaker. I still dont see that folks that are running relatively small mileage can expect to run an even pace (or -ve split) and still walk having had their best possible day. Pacing is very important, but I wont be toeing the VLM line not expecting a slight fade.
Having said the when was teh last time someone posted that they went 10 minutes quicker than teir tergat time ? but there's lots that are 10 mins slower.
Gul: If you're assuming that your first few miles will be so slow due to congestion, then fear not - you should be into your stride in no time.
If you're deliberately targeting such slow initial miles, then I'd suggest you re-think that plan.
GD - Agree with TAR. Get into the groove as quickly as possible without going mad.
The pacing strategy I adopted at Abo with the aim of getting sub 3:15 was to think of the first 21 miles in chunks of 3 miles and focus on doing each chunk in 22 minutes but no faster. By my reckoning that'll get you to the 21 mile mark in 2:34 which leaves you 41 minutes to do the final 5.2 miles (i.e. just under 8 min miles) which if you've been sensible to start with should be eminently do-able
MM - Scenario B is what I was suggesting - working lots around marathon effort (HR) as the paces you get from that increase through the training.
It would seem the necessity of running doubles most days would be an excellent means of getting in a good base of fitness to achieve your goals.
Not everyone needs to race a HM close to a marathon. I don't recall Paula doing that. Although LizY did do a couple last year, but a little bit further out.
Jezza - we're in the same camp there. Run conservatively for 20m then the kitchen sink can come out for the last 10k.
TR et al - the slight fade at VLM is partly down to the fact that the 2nd half is slightly more uphill than the 1st half, where you have the 3rd mile which for me always works out 20-30 secs faster than the rest.
I don't see anything wrong with GD's plan to start slow and speed up later. It worked for me at FLM. I ran the first mile in 8.13, gradually picked up until the average came down to just under 8s then ran the last few miles in 7.40s for a total average pace of 7.50min/mile. I'd love to do the same again but slightly faster this year!
And as for the theory that if you ran a negative split you left something out on the road - whoever came up with that one clearly hadn't seen me stumbling and retching down the final few yards and collapsing into a heap over the finish line!
Didn't Paula race a HM recently the week before she was supposed to be running Berlin marathon? She pulled out of the mara though.
I'm being awfully contentious today - I apologise!
BR - I had best get some hill work in then
CC - I've seen people puke after 10ks. I'm only talking about the 2nd 1/2 being a couple of miutes slower than the first 1/2. Even if you can even out your effort so that you can try just as hard all the way, the muscles are getting faituged and strides are getting shorter.
Also meant to say I agree with SueC - LSRs and a midweek 13 to 15 will define your big day, the speedwork is just icing that may make a small cake look better. I'd rather have a bland looking big cake.
Cor good this innit? We've got some real, proper, honest-to-goodness beentheredoneit types who've got either sub 3h15 or sub3 to their names and who are passing on their collective advice to all who read this thread. A real collection of knowledge and top tips from high mileage types to 3 runs a week peeps. This is what I hoped for - a good bit of debate, some different ideas but essentially everyone chipping in to try and help out with advice.
Brilliant.
Now then, Liz Yelling did tell me near the start of the thread NOT to go and do the 5 mile race tomorrow and to scale down my training in terms of volume and intensity so that I arrived at Monday morning fresh and rested and ready to start the schedule. I'm definitely NOT doing the race tomorrow - you don't argue with an Olympian marathon runner after all. However, being the fragile type that needs reassurance that my form is there I decided to skip out tonight to go and do a measured mile which we use on club nights for mile reps. Handily it's round the corner from my house so I went out for a short warm-up (1.67miles at 8m34s pace / 158bpm AV HR) before having a pop at the mile.
I was WILLING the end of the mile to come and was close to pulling up short but thought I've started so I'll finish.
Flat out miles hurt huh?
5m47s at 187bpm AV HR, MHR 192bpm.
Followed by 0.63mile w/down at 8m33s pace / 164bpm AV HR
I managed 5m41s on the track in the summer but unfortunately don't have any HR data for that so can't compare it exactly but only 6 secs out makes me happy that my basic speed is still there.
I agree, its nice that BR has showed up with his advice.
MM - nice one on sticking with the given plan. As much as you might like to tweak it or not, well played for planning to do what you signed up for.