I've decided to give Base Training a go...

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  • Yeah, it was the treadmill today image I got an hour in which was fine.
  • Good stuff!!! I see we're going to be x-posting between here and Fetch!!! image

  • I'm also watching this thread with interest!  Looks like I'll get some good tips

    There is ssoooooooo much I need to learn about running, currently I'm just trying to find out what type of race I like best [having only ever raced 5k's and 10k's] - At what stage does one move from beginner to novice?

    From what I've read so far [the hardest thing is sifting through all the information available] base training looks like the way to go. I've got my first 1/2 coming up in just over 2 weeks, which I'll be using to judge my true potential, after that I am focusing on the Great North Run so I'm currently researching training to build a suitable training plan for that, so looks this thread will be invaluable.

    Good luck Duckinator, you seem really dedicated and determined and what's more very sensible.  Good for you!

  • BadbarkBadbark ✭✭✭

    As some encouragement I thought I’d post my weekly stats from when I started base training in early November. I run 6 days a week and didn’t add in any faster runs until after I got my HR monitor fixed over Xmas. I still run six days a week but with one MP run and one interval sessions now added.

    Pace 9:41 HR 138 -8 miles

    Pace 9:21 HR 138 -15 miles

    Pace 8:56 HR 137 -10 miles

    Pace 9:04 HR 141 -10 miles

    Pace 8:50 HR 142 -11 miles

    Pace 8:43 HR 137 -13 miles

    Faulty HR monitor for about a month

    Pace 8:38 HR 138 -17miles

    Pace 8:28 HR 133 -13 miles (mid week)

    Pace 8:15 HR 140 -18 miles

    Pace 8:02 HR 140 -13 miles (mid week)

    Pace 8:23 HR 140 -20 miles

    Pace 8:13 HR 145 -21 miles (last 5 at MP)

    Pace 6:38 HR 161 -10k time trial

    Pace 7:33 HR 141 - 13 miles (mid week at MP)

    Pace 8:15 HR 141 -22 miles (last 2 at MP)

    Pace 7:00 HR 158 - half marathon race

    Pace 7:34 HR 144 – 12 miles (mid week at MP)

    Pace 8:10 HR 143 -23 miles (last 5 at MP)

    Pace 7:42 HR 141 -12 miles (mid week at MP)

    From this you can see that I could 1 minute faster with the same HR in the first 6 weeks and can now run almost 2 minutes a mile faster.

  • Wow, Badbark..........impressive!!!!! For me anyway that has given me TONS of encouragement. The more I see stats, the happier I feel!! I'm a LOT slower than all of you though, so hopefully I should see some improvement.

    Can I ask a question? Sorry if it sounds silly, I'm starting my base training next week, and was best advised to do minimum of 5 runs. I was going to start off with 4 x 60mins runs M, Tu, Th, and Fr, and a 90mins building up to 120mins run on Sunday.

    Do I have to stick rigidly to 60mins each week, or can I vary the length of time I run, as long as it's 60mins minimum, and below the 70%WHR/MHR?

    Thanks!

    ETA: On the Wed. I was thinking of continuing with my cycling at the gym, for 60-90mins, I usually cover about 30-50KM, and that session can leave me knackered at the end. Is it still worth doing, or replace it with something else like aerobics/weights? I've heard cycling helps, my HR during these sessions is around 135-150bpm.

    I figured that as these runs will be at an easy pace, compared to my all-ou running that I've been doing, I should have the energy for a 6th day of exercise. Thoughts?

  • Is anyone able to give some advice on heart rate ranges for base fitness runs? It's just that I'm a little confused from what I've read from various sources on the subject; for example, the book "heart rate training for the complete idiot" says stick to 70%, I've seen 75% bandied around in places, even 80% - and then to confuse matters further, I've read comments from Arthur Lydiard that heart rate monitors are a complete waste of time and it should be run on "feel" (which doesn't help me at all because I can run at the same pace on different occasions and feel the same yet my heart rate can be a complete scattergun which varies considerably and might not even still be aerobic).

    Thanks in advance image

  • BadbarkBadbark ✭✭✭

    The Boosh – Yes, you can certainly lengthen or even shorten the length of your runs to suit your schedule. Most of my early runs were from 45 minutes to 1:30 and I made significant improvements.

    It might be a good idea to keep your cycling WHR to 70% to match your base training running.

    Mackle – Maybe the 80% figure you have read could have been 80% of the maximum HR which is not the same as 80% of working HR. I’m no expert but I think I would struggle running at 80% of my WHR every day and avoid injury. Lydiard’s opinion is certainly in the minority from what I have researched and discovered by trying it myself.

  • Bit to catch up on it seems.

    Badbark - very impressive decrease in times - 2 minutes/mile since November? If that's accurate (which I have no reason to not believe) then that's a singing endorsement for base training.

    I'm personally almost at the end of week 2. I'm home in Aberdeenshire right now and I did a quite hilly hour today, averaging 8:48/mile with some pretty serious hills along the way. I'm reckoning on a good day, with a flat course, my average pace will be something like 8:35-8:40/mile running below 75% MHR.

    Mackle - I'd suggest using MHR as your guide. WHR can be confusing for some to work out in conjunction with MHR so while I was recommended 70% WHR as a maximum, I've found it much easier just to stick with 75% MHR as the upper limit and go with that.
  • hi badbark do you run am & pm running or run once a day, very impressed with your base training regard.
  • BadbarkBadbark ✭✭✭

    soulmate – I’ve only ever run once a day, Monday to Thursday after work at about 4pm and Saturday and Sunday at around 8am.

  • I've been trying to stay at or under 145BPM, which I believe is around my 70% WHR figure.

    I can't believe how slowly I have to go! I've been using the route mapping feature on fetch as a rough guide, and my so-called "easy runs" appear to in actual fact be 5.6MPH jogs. It's quite frightening to me in a way because prior to this a reasonable training run for me would be a 7 mile run in just under an hour which isn't fast by any stretch (based on race results that's my half-marathon pace) but it is compared to this jogging pace!

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    Be patient ... your 70% wHR pace will improve if you give it time! image
  • BadbarkBadbark ✭✭✭

    I feel your pain Mackie, as I felt exactly the same way 6 months ago. I remember being embarrassed to be seen running because I had to slow down to 10:30 minute mile pace going up hills. Stick with it as you should notice improvement every week.

  • Hi.  I'm interested in base training but I've never quite been sure if you should start off faster and then when you hit your target % slow down to stay at that rate or just go steadily through your run and hit the % at the end?  Or just aim for an average of your % even if you spend part of your running time at a higher rate?  What is recommended?

     Thanks.

    M.

  • No84,

    About 2 minutes after leaving my house I have to navigate a short but steep hill so by the time I am at the top of it my heart is already pushing 150, so when I come down the other side I just let it drop to the high 130s or low 140s and it then tends to pretty much stay there for the rest of the run.

  • Badbark wrote (see)

    I feel your pain Mackie, as I felt exactly the same way 6 months ago. I remember being embarrassed to be seen running because I had to slow down to 10:30 minute mile pace going up hills. Stick with it as you should notice improvement every week.

    Is it important to keep below 70% whilst going up hill then? Some of the hills by me are steep enough that even a jog up them pushes my heart into the 160s although at the end of the run the HRM still reports an average at around 70%.

  • BadbarkBadbark ✭✭✭

    I think letting your HR go up for a short while is fine as long as your average HR by the end of the run is below 70% WHR. I do try to keep my HR within 5-7 bmp of 70% which is much easier now than when I started.

  • I would say if it goes up a bit going uphill don't worry too much but just try and make sure it balances out when you go back down.

    no84 you should have an easy pace "zone". If you look at something like macmillan it should tell you based on your race times. I would suggest going out at that kind of pace rather than pushing it and dropping off.

    After a few runs I have tended to find my pace for 70% and stick to that on easy runs. Your body will soon work it out. My pace at this heart rate has went up significantly too .

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    Try not to let it go much above 70% even on hills ... just slow down. You're trying to avoid the generation of lactic acid so that your body trains aerobically. A little over now and then is okay but try to be disciplined. I've been doing this for a while now - it used to be hard but now I have no problem staying at 60-65% wHR if required.
  • I've been trying to keep my HR as low as possible, but is not always possible and I'm running at a VERY slow pace. My RHR is 47 and I thought I was fit. 

    My last 2 runs;

    Sunday 90mins - Avg HR154 - Max HR 169

    Monday  45mins- Avg HR 144 - Max HR 163

    Tuesday 70mins bike ride Av HR 110 - Max 120

    I won't embarrass myself about the pace, let's just say its over 12m/m. Can anyone advise whether I should stop, and walk when it gets over the 70%WHR, and restart when it gets below, as I really couldn't go any slower.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    imageHow confident are you that you have an accurate maxHR?
  • Well not very!! I did a Max HR test on Saturday up some hills, it read 177, but I've just looked back on some of my old runs/Garmin data, and the highest recorded on there was 185? I know I've been training ALL wrong, and my HR always ends around between 160-180 ish, hence deciding to go back to basics.

    I want to make sure I approach BT correctly and not burn myself out. I was going to give myself about 20+ weeks during this period. Is this too short? Sorry for all the questions.

  • MoraghanMoraghan ✭✭✭

    I'd hate to think that people are keeping all their runs during the base period at below 70% whr.  Your base period would typically include things like long hill repeats focusing on form, MP running (at least), some fartlek, strides and basic speed.  Don't deliberately exclude running at other paces in the name of base training dogma.

    Plus, what you include in the base period is also defined by how long your base is and what you plan to include in the next period.  You cannot treat the period in isolation - it would be a mistake to map out your base period without first asking the question "what happens next?".

    Finally - if you're training by HR and don't have a very, very good idea of your max hr you are absolutely bloody wasting your time.  And you are very unlikely to hit your max in a 5k race or longer.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Boosh, I suspected that you were calculating your 70% on an innacurate maxHR ... as Moraghan says, if you do this "you are absolutely bloody wasting your time".  At 12 min/mile you probably aren't even "running" (as far as form goes anyway).

    Moraghan, how do you view John Hadd's HR/ base training approach?   http://www.counterpartcoaching.com/hadd.pdf

  • MoraghanMoraghan ✭✭✭

    Dr. Dan

    I'm familiar with his stuff but haven't read through it for a couple of years, so will read through it again and post back. 

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    It's a tad long-winded so I expect to hear back from you in 2011. image
  • MoraghanMoraghan ✭✭✭

    Dr. Dan - I skim read it.  Bear in mind these are general observations but I have tried not to misrepresent the detail.

    Many of his explanations are very good and he covers his topic quite nicely, albeit using rats.  It's quite a convincing document, however I think there are some problems / inconsistencies with it.

    1)  He suggests that the only way to increase your LT is by running beneath it - which is not accepted wisdom as he suggests.  MP / HM / Tempo and even 10k pace work are used by many successful coaches to develop LT.

    2)  On the one hand he seems to be suggesting that base training is done at a lesser speed than MP and this is the way to raise your LT.  The he talkes about Lydiard's training - but a staple of Lydiard's base training was a weekly marathon pace run. 

    3)  Prior to "Joe's" 5k time he states that he hadn't done any running at that pace and that the result was due to an increased LT due to easy running.  Yet, Joe's 200 / 200 workout was actually done at a faster pace than 5k - it was in effect an aerobic power workout, which are often used as a lead up to vo2 max work or a more race specific vo2 max workout (because of the emphasis on the time of the recoveries).

    To a certain extent this is semantics, because most runners do run their easy runs too fast and this may well affect your aerobic efficiency.  A foundation of any program should be extensive easy running - and, initially at least, not at your maximum easy pace (c. 75% of vo2 max).  That's all good advice - the testing and LT information is all fair enough.

    What I think he spectacularly fails to do is explain why you shouldn't be including other elements of training in your base phase.  If he explained why including them somehow retarded your aerobic development and therefore your ability to push up LT that would be one thing.  But he doesn't - so it leads me to wonder what is the deliberate rationale for excluding it?  What's the harm of having the majority of running at his paces but also adding other types of workouts?

    Running is a sport of building fitness but the "use it or lose it" also applies.  Why deliberately neglect your quality fitness by avoiding it - particularly when sessions of that nature can invoke a wider range of muscle fibres without being too stressful (hills) and can increase LT (faster than MP) which is purportedly the aim of base training. 

  • MoraghanMoraghan ✭✭✭
    By the way.  Peter Snell - the most famous of Lydiard's athletes and now an exercise scientist - said he would change one thing about Lydiard's training.  He would include 400m intervals in his base training (although he didn't specify pace they'd no doubt be 5k or faster).
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Thanks Moraghan ... interesting to get your perspective.

    I haven't chased up all the various threads on letsrun.com where Hadd posts his approach, so I'm don't know whether he talks about the things you mention elsewhere. I do get the impression from the "Hadd document" that he doesn't  appear to rate "quality" workouts as a requirement for marathon training. I assume that he just doesn't believe that intervals/speed sessions will help you with a fast marathon, so that's why you shoudln't waste time on them. I may be wrong but that's what I interpret. And for shorter distances, he seems to have the approach that you first get your aerobic base sorted out (i.e. by essentially marathon training the "Hadd way") and then prepare for the shorter/faster distances afterwards (he tells Joe that if he wants to improve his 5K PB, he can come back to that after the marathon). Again, I may be wrong but that's what I interpret.

  • MoraghanMoraghan ✭✭✭

    I'm not a huge fan of some types of intervals for marathons either - but think you've got to be doing some quality training at faster than MP.  I just believe you can get your aerobic system developed without forcibly eliminating everything else.

    I believe that the author himself has complained about his base training being taken out of context and that's the sort of thing I alluded to when I said you can't treat the period in isolation.

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