Too long to recover from 18-20m runs

I am a novice training for my first marathon (VLM 25th April) & am now entering the period of high mileage long runs on Sundays.  I did a half marathon a few weeks ago with no problem,  then a 16m 2 weeks ago, an 18m last Sunday, & planning a 20m this weekend. 

My problem is that I ache so much in the days following these longer runs I am now finding it difficult to do any shorter ones on the weekdays.  In fact it is all I can do to run a slow 5miler by about Thursday, intervals or fast runs are nigh on impossible.  (Were fine a month ago) - I recover enough to manage the long run mileage by the following Sunday (but slow).  What am I doing wrong?

Comments

  • usually if yiou taking that ong to recover you have done the run too fast......it should be slower than you your planned marathon pace..........

    did you do much running before you started on this programme.might be just too much too soon........

    Its not easy training.have you tried having a sport massage a day or 2 after your long run.........or I go out the following day and do a few miles really really slowly just to let the legs loosen up again after the run..

    good luck

  • MoraghanMoraghan ✭✭✭

    miss slow

    A few assumptions here, based on your statement 'novice training for marathon' and what you are experiencing.

    It simply sounds as though you aren't doing sufficient mileage to support the stress of your long run. 

    What's the answer?

    Well you have to do long runs if you are going to do a marathon.  But you can't effectively run the long runs off very low weekly mileage.  Therefore you shouldn't be training for a marathon off low mileage.  But you can't ramp up to sufficient mileage over a short time period.  Therefore the marathon is the wrong event for you at this point in your running career.

    Nothing personal but in my view this is one of the reasons novices shouldn't be training for the marathon.  When you make a marathon a "bucket list" event you buy into an effort of mediocrity and compromise whereby you can't train properly.  The  London Marathon has much to answer for - particularly the dumbing down of running to the point where only one distance is felt as worthwhile training for.  It's a genuine tragedy.

  • I understand your point morgahan...........but for many of us who will never be good runners in any distance we try, then the marathon is one of those events that give us a sense of achievenment in our lives........

    I agree that a base before hand will help the training.......

    If this is your first marathon and if you are not aiming for a specific fast time then I would not worry about intervals or speed training..just in getting some miles on your legs..........It might be that you will have to change the finish time that you are hoping for mis slow.

    good luckimage and most of us are feeling tired legs at this time of the schedule as its a tough month

  • MoraghanMoraghan ✭✭✭
    seren nos wrote (see)

    I understand your point morgahan...........but for many of us who will never be good runners in any distance we try, then the marathon is one of those events that give us a sense of achievenment in our lives........

    ...yes, and I think this is the tragedy of it all.  To a large extent it's external society's viewpoint that frames 'achievement' whereas really it's personal and a product of how hard you have worked irrespective of how far the race is.  Already we are seeing more and more people turning to ultras - I wonder if that's because the marathon is starting to be perceived as too commonplace to be an achievement.
  • Hi Miss Slow,

     First of all, if you are up to 18 miles, then you WILL make the distance! Well done on getting this far, it is a real achievement in itself - how many of your friends could run 18 miles?!

     Next, don't be afraid to vary the pace of a long run. Start very slow, then pick it up. If you just want to get round and don't have a time in mind, then relax! Slow down if you start to struggle but equally if you feel good then revel in it!

    Very importantly, make sure you stretch after a long run. This could be a major factor in your aches and pains. If you can, then get out the next day and do 2-3 miles very slowly - this will help flush the muscles from the previous day's run.

    Finally, make sure you are re-fuelling adequately during the run and after. If you run further than 15 miles then you are going to seriously start depleting the bodies stores of fuel.I find SIS Go Gels are easy to take "on the run" and don't need water. Equally, jelly babies are good image

    Immediately you finish, eat something! Start with some fruit or a sugar source, followed by some carbohydrates. You should get the carbs in within an hour of finishing, preferably sooner. Also, drink plenty of water or sport's drinks. De-hydration will cause cramps, aches... etc. etc.

     Good luck at London and remember to focus on what you are doing well, rather than dwelling on what you are struggling with. Based on what you've written I believe you are preparing well and will have a great run on the 25th.

    PaulG

  • Miss Slow, I wouldn't do the 20 miler this weekend. Do 12-13 and then you can aim for 18-20 next weekend, that will still give you a three week taper. If you're a novice step back weeks after the very long runs (where you cut the length of the longest run) are hugely helpful to help your body recover.

    Speed has been mentioned but probably can't be emphasied enough. Do not go too fast. You should be comfortable all the way around. 

    18 miles is generally regarded an adequate longest run for first-timers though if your goal is to finish, so don't panic and good luck. 

  • When I ran the VLM 3 years ago my training was severely hampered by various injuries. I really only managed to do half the runs on my 16 week training programme, and my longest LSR was 18 miles. Finished in 4h13m though!

    This time around I have a better running base and a longer training period but like you am now taking too long to recover after my long runs. In fact, after last Sunday's 20 miler, which went really well btw, I managed to run 7.5m on Tuesday but haven't run since - the legs are just too achey, and even swimming on Wed was uncomfortable. I'm going to try and cross train today but am wondering what distance to attempt come Sunday (was planning on doing 16m).

    I think we both have enough miles in the bank by now so shouldn't panic about getting in any more LSRs. Cross training is very valuable, and is what got me over the finish line last time.

    Good luck!
  • miss slowmiss slow ✭✭✭

    Thanks for all the advice.  Although my first marathon,  I have been running regularly for a year and following RW 4.30 schedule to the letter which was going well until just after the half.  I will try the massage & stretches as I must admit I do neither of that.  I have been using the sis gels (the lucozade ones are yuk) but I recognising I might be running too fast for the higher mileage.  I will try a shorter one this weekend & the 20 next week & see how it goes.

  • another point - what are you doing when you finish the long runs to aid recovery???

    if you just stop and do nothing the muscles will not thank you and DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) will set in with a vengeance. you should ideally take some carbs and protein within an hour of finishing to replace what you have lost - the carbs to help replenish glycogen stores and the protein to help muscle repair (muscle tissue gets damaged over long runs). evidence shows that taking these shortly after exercise allows greater absorption into your system and hence quicker recovery. there are various ways of doing this - I personally use a recovery drink (Rego) but other swear by such things as chicken sandwiches, fish and chips, whatever!

    it's also useful to do something very gentle the following day such as a swim, gentle bike ride, or even a good walk to keep the muscles active and aid removal of lactate which has built up
  • miss slowmiss slow ✭✭✭
    Hi Fat Buddha, yes - I do just tend to blob afterwards on the sofa (knackered).  Eating is prob ok - ham sarnies straight after.  Maybe should try to keep moving a while rather than staying still.  The next day I am on my feet all day at work, but it's 2 days after that the aches really seem to kick in for some reason.
  • I make sure I walk for at least 10 mins after I've finished my run, then stretch, shower then take my time making lunch so I stay on my feet as long as possible. Calves and quads haven't tightened up at all compared to last time when like you I used to have a sandwich (actually a cinnamon and raisin bagel with peanut butter, jam and banana) then blob on the couch (with bags of ice on my shins...). Defo recommend staying on your feet for at least an hour after a long run.
  • miss slowmiss slow ✭✭✭
    Hi Dizzie, yes - perhaps I should yield to my other half's pleas for the Sunday roast to come back (been making quick meals since me doing all this training) & stay walking about for a while after & do some cooking.  Would certainly go down better then ham sandwiches for lunch!
  • Hey folks

    Paul_G, that was excellent advice and very well put. image 

    miss slow i am doing my first marathon this year, Edinburgh and have started LSR's, I'm doing my first 20 mile on sunday. I know exactly what you mean over last couple of weeks I've only ran twice a week. I'm just recognising my issue is not being active enough. 

    I'm going to try and go to the gym nearly every day off running, just to do some gentle work, bike and x trainer then core work and stretching. I find it easier doing at the gym than at home. On my 18 mile run, altough I felt great doing it a few days after i really felt it in my legs and basically I ran too fast. I actually ran faster than I'm planning for the marathon so I need to learn to slow it down. 

    I wish you luck but it sounds like you don't really need it. Marathons are important for us newbies. Stick with it. 

    imageimage 

  • miss slow wrote (see)
    Hi Dizzie, yes - perhaps I should yield to my other half's pleas for the Sunday roast to come back (been making quick meals since me doing all this training) & stay walking about for a while after & do some cooking.  Would certainly go down better then ham sandwiches for lunch!
    tell the OH to make the roast! and then you can walk around to your hearts content! well I'm working on this one for this sunday but not getting very far!
  • Would echo Paul G advice Miss Slow, a marathon is a serious event and its wise to keep an open mind as you go along, very rarely does a training schedule go to plan, there's too many variables.

    In previous marathons I also suffered quite badly with DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) after mid-to-long training runs, this time for Blackpool marathon training Ive added a (very) gentle swim the morning after my long run and its made a really big difference, I would recommend it.

    Good luck lady!

  • Just do the 18-20 milers every other week.  The other weekends maybe limit yourself to 12-14.  You have pushed the mileage up very quickly (13 to 18 in a matter of weeks) so this will naturally take a lot out of you.  Doing the really long runs every couple of weeks will allow you to get more consistent runs in during the interim

  • miss slowmiss slow ✭✭✭
    Hi all, thanks for all your advice and encouragement.  I was feeling a bit down about it all, but Paul G is right, I have progressed a long way & I am really going to do it!  I think I will do a 12-14 tomorrow & one last long one next week, as that sounds v sensible.  Hopefully that should let me continue the shorter ones during the weeks left. 
  • Having read these comments I am feeling sooooo much better (despite the negative ones, I'm sorry but there is a time and a place to say someone should just not do a marathon and a runners forum with someone seeking a boost from fellow runners a matter of weeks before the marathon is not one of them)

    I have run on and off since I was a teenager but I had never ran more than 10k in races before being accepted onto the marathon. Training started later than I would of liked due to very painful wisdom tooth surgery with a multitude of complications but once I was in training I was on fire and was really impressed with myself and was feeling (overly) confident. Then a month ago I got struck down with excrutiating pain in my lower leg (which the doctor huffily insists is a strain....) I managed to do my first ever half in under 2 hours but then after that i could barely walk let alone run. So I missed ANOTHER long run (and 2 weeks training). Since then I have only run on the 'good' days but have still managed to achieve an 18 miler last week. Since then I have ran once and been resting the injury since. Up till now I was convinced it was not enough and I was going to be a failure but the leg is improving now and I hope to run 20 miles tomorrow.

    I think for us first timers the LSR's are the vital part psychologically (hence saving myself for the 20 miler this week) We now have the taper to work on the much shorter but faster runs but lets face it, the first marathon should be no more than just finishing it and the rest is a bonus. I hope for my sub 4 hours 30 but finishing is what it is all about.

    I personally think it is AMAZING that people decide to run a marathon and we should all be emmensely proud of ourselves..... WE CAN DO IT!
  • Moraghan   There is no tragedy in that the marathon gives us a sense of achievement. Just about to attempt my first. Edinburgh. But am already wishing I'd done more running. If I follow the plans out there I'd never get any where near the finish. I've done more but feel it's not enough but we can only go by advice thats given us. That doesn't mean we are stupid or lazy or incompetent or not worthy of the challenge. It just means our middle names are not Paula Radcliff. Would actually like to try some of your training but not sure your flexible to other peoples lives or even whether you'll ever read this. Just remember, we're not all super human and we all have our different reasons for doing things.
  • MoraghanMoraghan ✭✭✭

    Sneglen - it seems people often skim read posts and then devise an interpretation that will serve their internally brewing indignation.

    I didn't say it's a tragedy that marathon gives a sense of achievement.  I said it's a tragedy that it takes running a marathon to give a runner a sense of achievement. 

    What happened to all the people who run a 10k in 55:00 in year 1, improved to 50:00 in year 2 and then 45:00 in year 3?  People who could be rightly proud of that achievement, because that sort of improvement takes some special long term commitment.  I'll tell you what happened - every bloody time they spoke to someone about their running they were asked "have you done a marathon yet?" and slowly but surely they ended up believing that all roads must lead to a marathon and as soon as damn possible. 

    Now you are suggesting that I think people are stupid, lazy and incompetent?  You are fcking kidding me - you are making this stuff up.  It's a challenge detrimental challenge to their long term running and it often leads to burnout and injury because of the lack of proportion in the training.  The off the shelf plans just make the whole situation worse by validating it.

    The bottom line is this was posted on a running training forum and there was a specific training issue.  I attempted to give sound running advice.  What Gemma and you really wanted to see was someone blowing smoke up someone's arse and telling them it's all going to be right when the whole situation is wrong.  I am not the one being irresponsible here.  Surely we are too old and gnarled to be calling people a "meanie" solely because their advice runs counter to our personal plans.

  • I have to say I agree with Moraghan's sentiments - it is a tragedy that the marathon has become a goal so universally aspired to.

    I have recently been training for my first 10k race and, whenever I mentioned this to anybody, it was quite obvious, even if some were too polite to be explicit, that everybody was mentally noting that a 10k is less than a quarter of the distance of a marathon. I think this may be largely because people view running races as being mostly about finishing and much less about the time it takes to do so.

    My wife couldn't understand why I was doing so much training or why I was doing weekly runs of 10-12 miles for a race that was only 6.2 miles long. I kept mentioning the point about wanting to get a decent time (sub-45) but somehow this seemed too abstract a goal to be of much interest. People I know who do a fair amount of running, on the other hand, were much more appreciative of this issue and wanted to know the sustained minutes per mile pace that would get me to sub-45 and could relate this to their own training paces.

    Why is this a tragedy? Well, actually it isn't a tragedy that people do not really value people's efforts to improve their running over shorter distances than the marathon. It is a pity, no more than that. Anyone who is interested in running shorter distances can just get on with it in quiet obscurity and not worry. Possibly it is damaging to the sport, reducing the participation of people in distances between 3k and 42k. Again, not really a tragedy.

    No, the tragedy lies in the fact that it is actually pretty unhealthy to run that far, especially if not properly trained. The excessive popularity of marathons thus leads to an excess number of deaths among the participants.

    Having said all that, it sounds as if the original poster will have no problem in completing the marathon based on the amount of training put in.

    Finally, Moraghan's post has been grossly misinterpreted by Sneglen et al. 

  • miss slowmiss slow ✭✭✭
    Hi all, I fully understand Moraghan's posts and yes, it does seem as if a marathon is what a lot of people, rightly or wrongly, aspire to completing.  That said, I have trained as hard as I could for over a year (around full time work & being a mum) so feel that completing a marathon within a reasonable time would be a huge achievement for me.  I also am proud of the 5k, 10k & half marathons done along the way.  I took the advice from seasoned runners on here and had a 'step-back' week & did a 13mile 'long' run.  I also reviewed my post-run activities & nutrition.  This did allow me to continue with the shorter runs in the week, so in hindsight perhaps I had overtrained a bit & just needed a bit of a rest & stretching.  This weekend I did a 20mile run and feel much stronger and looking forward to the marathon now.  I really appreciate all the comments and advice, thanks again all.
  • Moraghan.

     I apologise if I misinterpreted your post but I thought you were insinuating that unless one can run a marathon fast, then one shouldn't run it at all. (I appreciate that the average time taken to run London has gone from something like 3hr 40 to 4hr40 due to 'fun runners') I myself am slow but very committed but no matter how much training I do I wil never be fast.

    I think you and others must have had people asking when are you doing a marathon but in 3 years of running nobody has ever said that to me. In fact they don't appear to know how far it is(heathens obviously

    So, once again, my apologies and of course we all have different opinions.

    P.S,  I didn't call you irresponsible or a meanie and really don't want to see someone having smoke blown up their arse!!!

    Miss Slow. I bought some compression tights. That and upping my mid week runs like suggested did the trick.

  • MoraghanMoraghan ✭✭✭

    Sneglen

    No problem.  Speed is largely irrelevant - it's a far better idea (long term wise) for a runner of 3 years experience to run a marathon if capable of 4 hours than a runner of 1 year to run one if capable in 3 hours.  Although even better for a runner with 3 years experience capable of 3 hrs than a runner of the same experience capable of 4 hours - but ONLY because if both run adequate mileage the 4hr runner will have to run for far longer, further stretching reasonable proportions.

    Most of all, I'd like to see people have rewarding running careers and only running a marathon when they're ready and if they genuinely choose to.

    Did you ever read the Sneetches when you were a kid?  Soon enough a marathon will be too common to be deemed an achievement and everyone will feel the need to run ultras.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Interesting ... I often laugh to myself that, in many peoples minds, running is about "completing a distance" and not about "running faster". Imagine the aim of playing a football match as being able to make it to the end of the 90 min session rather than simply playing well. It seems unique to running.

  • Sadly 4 hours is also an unattainable dream
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