Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • Some good racing from you chaps this weekend. Some good training too Bus.

    I quite like racing XC, expecially the 'randomness' of the course - as Phil has pointed out.

    Stevie G . wrote (see)
    Just seen an old rival's wife pop up on facebook suggesting her chap did a 26sec pb at the 5k leg of a duathlon.

    That'd be amazing.

    Unfortunately at least 1/2 a km short.

     

    I think the BTF allow a 10% rule. It's not easy squeezing in a 5km run lap that fits in with a 20km bike course. The the 'standard' distance guys have to do 2 run laps first, then 2 bike courses.

    I see even after blasting the sprint du quals at Althorp, Alan Murchison blasted the standard distance quals at Dambuster on Sat. The course is known to be short there, but the times are still fantastic.

    I have some questions about training paces for 5 & 10 km races. I've put my 5km PB in to McMillan, and the paces it shows are almost spot on with Furman FIRST.

    FIRST does not have easy runs, it has a tempo, a track and a 'long'. The long pace corresponds with McMillan's Steady State Run - the explanation of which is 20-90 minutes for Stamina. Easy running is replaces by cycling/swimming/rowing.

    What would you guys suggest would be the long run format in McMillan terms (Endurance/Stamina/Long/Easy/Steady State) for 5 - 10km racing?

    Tonight was 12km at FIRST 'long' pace - i.e. 4:20/km.

     

    I recall SG suggesting that my easy run should be somewhere between 8 & 9min/mi.

     

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    why call it 5k if it allows an error? It just means people run around claiming false times.

    Can't recall your times at the point I offered up 8-9min as your easy pace, but roughly speaking add 1min 20ish to your most recent half marathon pace for top end easy, and 40-50secs on top of that as the range.

    Just as a guide...

    ps what kind of training plan doesn't have easy runs? Does Furman also suggest 30miles a week marathon plans? image

  • Stevie G . wrote (see)

    why call it 5k if it allows an error? It just means people run around claiming false times.

    5k NADimage

    Stevie G . wrote (see)
    Does Furman also suggest 30miles a week marathon plans? image

    Yes, though even I think that is a tad short on mileage. What would your weekly mileage be if you stripped out the easy mileage?

    Furman has certainly paid off for me at the 5km distance. Though I do struggle to mix the 3 quality sessions with 3 quality bike sessions too.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Non easy would be about 7-8miles a week at the moment!

    But clearly if you just did those miles you wouldn't have anywhere near the base, unless you'd put that in earlier.

    you can get away with 5k in a way you can't with longer distances too.

    My first was 18.18 at Wargrave in 06, an undulating course, so perhaps worth a flat 18. (did 3 other courses within 2months, at 18.06, 17.58,17.57 to show that)

    My 10ks of 05-06 were 38.27 x1 , and 4x40s. Now, all those 40s had either a hill or me having a fever(!), so call those 39s as a comparison...
    (that 38.27 was 05, and such a monster performance it took 3 years to beat!)

    but you can see i should have been looking 37s if i had the correct base behind me,

    Compare to now for instance, 5k 16.53, 10k 34.43.   x2 +1min that seems to have been a decent rough rule of thumb for me .

  • JohnasJohnas ✭✭✭

    Great running at the XC's Dean & Seb. Great to see you so close too! Mixing it up with a quality field and putting in some cracking paces in what sounds like tough conditions. Sub 6mm in terrible conditions is a good day at the office.

    SS - sounds like the conditions got the better of you 'time' wise but still sounds like a great performance and shows all those long hard weeks are paying dividends. head winds have to be the worst of conditions in my book - it's a struggle to keep moving and so draining. Sounds like you made the right decision MattL.

    First of the testing long runs for me yesterday. 30K with first 10k easy (6.53 average), next 10K at MP (6.10 average), 5K easy (6.54 average), 5K at threshold (6.04 average) and a couple of miles tagged on afterwards to cool down and take it to 20 miles total. the 30k completed in 2 hours 2 mins.

    Ideally I would have liked to have seen the threshold section at sub 6min/mile and can only put it down to running the other sections too fast - should have kept the easy parts much slower (7.15 m/m ish) and the MP more on target (c. 6.15m/m) but hey, live and learn. No soreness today so that's something.

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    Dean, Seb & PC2, great stuff from all of you at the inter-counties.  I'd have loved to watch you all on the TV, but I don't have Sky Sports.  I'd love to claim that it is due to a principled anti-Murdoch stance, but really it was to prevent myself wasting all my weekends in front of the TV. 

    Anyway, great performances all.  Seb showing his usual XC pedigree there, finishing as high up as you did in a field like that is really impressive.  Likewise Dean, overcoming your issues with XC as a surface to deliver a great performance to score for the county. Also impressed with the fast finishes from both of you.  Will await PC2's report.

    Johnas, that's a hell of a training run, particularly including some 6:0xs.  Even the easy pace looks pretty quick for me.  Is 6:15 the marathon target pace then?

    SG, thinking about it, why on earth would you be listed as being a Surrey runner of all places?  If it was done by club in the absence of other info, you should be Berkshire.

    I'd love to have a crack, maybe next year, at getting a county XC vest.  However, even if I manage to improve overall, and particularly on the surface, it looks like a bit of an uphill struggle.  Looking at the Berkshire team, I have to admit that, PC2 aside, I hadn't heard of most of them.  One or two names I've seen around, but the vast majority of them are young track runners who rarely crop up on the roads.  Is that the case elsewhere?  Not one of the Berkshire team is over 25, and they're only going to get better.  Add in the likes of the winner of the U20 race from Reading AC, who is already quicker than most if not all of the senior Berkshire team, and is a hell of a runner, as well as other absent runners, and I think I'd need some kind of miracle or illness epidemic to slip in. 

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    Sorry, forgot SS.  Shame you couldn't get the PB, but still a good performance, and from your training paces, I'm convinced you can take a good chunk off your PB next time out.

    Sensible decision from Mattl, should keep you strong for future races.

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    As for my running this weekend, my wife did offer me the chance to do the parkrun on Saturday by taking both kids to the eldest's violin lesson.  Unfortunately, when I woke up a combination of residual DOMS from Wednesday's 200s and not being able to find my barcode meant I didn't bother.

    So just the 14 easy for me yesterday.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Doms on the saturday! You really did clatter those legs!

    Johnas, cracking run, like you say doing your easy at the top end must have made the rest tasty.

    Having seen your clean heels up close last week, I've a feeling those training zones might need revision...but then perhaps you're starting at your actual achieved MP and working down, rather than the other way round like me, with my MP theoretical.

    Dachs, Sandhurst is in Surrey remember, not Berkshire. Just a reminder of how far away my 1st claim lot are!

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    SG, Sandhurst is in Berkshire.  Bracknell Forest Borough.  It's close to Surrey, and closer to Hampshire, but it's definitely Berkshire.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Well done Dean and Seb at the Inters. The idea of being able to sustain sub 6 pace on mud and hills take some thinking about.

    Ss, choosing a race to do a PB at seems a bit like 'cart before the horse'. Easier and more logical to concentrate on getting the training sorted and then letting a few races get in the way. 

    Good article on the web. 

    Sports Coach::

    Tapering: The real art and science  of coaching. (Ignore at your leisure.)

    As for me, training going ok until a couple of weeks ago. Ran a 13 miler which I didn't recover from as quickly as I expected.

    Some inflammed glands soon gave me a warning shot across the bows so anything more than 3 miles per day was vetoed.

     Yesterday ran the very same 13 miler. Put a HR monitor on to give some idea of what was what and set off at easy effort. Bumped into a clubmate after a mile and jogged along for the next mile at 8:30 pace so any thoughts of speed went out the window. 

    Went along with HR in the 140/150's with 160bpm only touched up the steepest hills.

    Garmin revealed that the run was only 17 seconds slower than two weeks back, with the last 10 miles at 7:03 average including 700 feet of climbs.

  • JohnasJohnas ✭✭✭

    Dachs - 6.15 is target pace for VLM. Although 6.17 is sub 2:45, it's a bit too close for comfort and 6.15 feels comfortable in training.

    SG - I've amended my pace zones since Dulwich and according to McMillan, my MP pace should be around 6.09 although targeting slightly slower as the goal is sub 2:45 and nothing more (McMillan predicts 2.41). All the other paces are in the right zone but were probably a bit too tasty for what the session called for - I should have kept it easy in order to give the final section a beasting

     

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Dachs, that's probably my mistake for entering "Sandhurst, Surrey" into google! Does it sound crazy that a couple of Sandhurst connected places are in Surrey? Like some military base?

    Ric, welcome back, saw your post about stopping mailing on a certain thread as the people weren't on your wavelength and thought you meant us! Have also seen you flirting with the forum's main spam artist though (90,000 posts or so?) , so not sure where your head's been image

    Johnas, we're probably pretty close on pace zones now then...my easy pace starts at 6.53, and my MP is 6.00-6.10 range. The Howard Grubb predicts me a 16.35 5k off my half... I wouldn't even bother checking what McMillan would calculate me, something really unrealistic no doubt.

    Clearly what i MIGHT be able to do is a lot different to what you HAVE done though image

  • RMA Sandhurst is in Surrey SG. Notably it's in Camberley rather than Sandhurst too... But only a local would know thatimage
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Hey, I know loads of stuff round there, the lookout, the  Bracknell track, some housing estate I got lost in after my one session on the Bracknell track...image

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    SG, that's not crazy.  Sandhurst is in Berkshire, but Yateley, less than a mile away across a couple of smallish lakes is in Hampshire.  Sandhurst also basically joins onto Camberley, which is in Surrey. 

    Sorry, I'm just a pedantic geography geek.  When I first came out of university, I worked for a local government unit that worked to the six Berkshire local authorities, so knowing Berkshire's borders came with the job.

    Of course, Berkshire actually no longer officially exists as an administrative area, having been abolished in the late 90s when the six component authorities were made unitary, so I'm wrong as well...

    I bet this is really exciting stuff for the rest of you.

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    Incidentally, since he got a mention, Howard Grubb of age-grading fame is a former Reading Roadrunner, and still holds some of our club records.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Hi SG, the wavlength thing would really be about the differences in training approach.

    I see a lot of references to McMillan and other online training program session setters. 

    I just find it too simplistic to execute a set of numbers based on another set of numbers. The guys who come up with this stuff are more mathematicians and statatistions than runners.

    Adhering strictly to some pre-determined program may be better than no program at all, but then again, isn't that what the thread is about?

    The science and reasons why behind the programs may be a step too far for many. Its why my hands are tied at times.

     

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Ric, I think McMillan is a decent "Guide", but I agree you need more than just some calculations. That's where the M man comes in, tweaking the McMillan zones, and periodising etc

    In fairness my own personal mentioning of McMillan is in comparing race results over distances. I think it comes out pretty spot on between HM and 10m, but think it gives pretty optimistic 5k & 10k from those higher distances.

    However, i think it works for some. I think the legendary UG at one recent point had his 5k and Marathon pretty spot on to the predictions (UG, you out there to confirm?)

    Dachs,  some good geography going on there, i quite like it. I also like the fact that the lurkers who sponge all the genius you lot offer, yet contribute nothing,  will have to sift through more pages to find the actual training image

    Incidentally, just for an extra aside, Bracknell's XC event takes part at Lightwater Country park, which is in Surrey!

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    All of us local authority types need an element of geography geekiness - especially if you go anywhere near a planning department!

    Double xc today but my back has been REALLY painful. I was stiff as a board this morning! A bit stoopid of me to do 200m sprints for the first time ever at the end of a week of sciatica! It was never going to be a good idea - doh!!

    What's your plan for Thursday SG? I might be working at home. Looking for 8-10 ideally.

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭
    The Bus wrote (see)

    All of us local authority types need an element of geography geekiness - especially if you go anywhere near a planning department!

    Guilty.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Bus. I wouldn't want to do anything after 6x800, let alone sprints, but you fancied it, and aren't a slave to the schedule like me image

    Do you think seemingly constant xc running helps or hinders your back? It seems to be a 50-50 split, some think road running does the most harm, but surely hilly offroad causes more problems!

    nooooo not Thursday! That's the one day nothings possible on! Switch it son, tue, wed and fri all have good join withs....
    i could mess about and change days, but with hard sessions tue and fri i best not! In an hour's time I'm off until next Tuesday so could even  be flexi on location.

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    poop - not having much luck with our timings of late!

    Diffiuclt to say what triggers it worse - hills, probably and this morning was rock hard, but it's an easier pace and less pounding. last week's tempo on the road actually seemed to help, bizarrely.  

    I know one thing though - 200s are not the right thing to do!!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    200s on 6x800 tired legs aren't image

    Knowing you you smashed the 200s too!

    I went back to Marlow a couple of years back, after Id got used to this training scheme. The session was classically "Loose" on details, so I ended utterly smashing the reps flat out.

    result? spent about 3-4 days with destroyed legs. A feeling I haven't even come close to in almost 3 years of proper coached sessions, not even in hilly races.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Talking about destroying things.

    If I have another post eradicated before I post it. A fucking keyboard is going to cop it

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Of course SG! This website is being ver odd Ric - frustrating!

    Took a tumble on the way home tonight - tripped over something in the woods and felt something ping in the glute region as I went down awkwardly. Had to run a very painful couple of miles to get back home. Hurts now, but proff of the pudding will be in the morning - I've got fingers crossed it isn't as serious as it felt when I went down...

    Ironic, as I've run that route twice a week in the dark since October without incident and tonight was in the light!

  • Had a decent run at the Inters, the achievement was qualifying outright to be there and the plan to enjoy it. Given that I seem to have had a few xc pacing issues this season and last year probably took a little while to adjust to being in the back fifth I decided to go a bit steadier.

    Starting at the back of the team (obviously), I spotted a few guys I knew from previous training groups and the local xc league, one of whom beat me last weekend. I went off steady and was working my way through a bit over the next few laps, cat and mousing with both the guy from the league and the old training group. Eventually shook them both off on about lap 3.

    Strong into the finish taking a few more. Ended up in 232 from 290 finishers - last year was 222 from 278. Finished the race thinking I couldnt have run faster on the day so I have to be satisfied. Felt a little put out that the placing had gone down but there was more behind me this time, and both years I was about the same time behind the winners.

    Its a real mixed bag though, people around me that have slower road times and some with faster. Had a very quick hello with Dean and Seb at the end.

    Dachs - I always thought I wouldn't get into the team. Last year I was just outside and a few dropped out so I was in, this year I was the last qualifier at the county champs. You can't be far off. Also, its a couple of years yet before that particular U20 is in the seniors, he's a first year U20 having won the U17 last year!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Bus, easily done in woods. Should be ok!

    PC2, must be a funny old game to come 232nd out of a mere 290! Pretty much any other road race in the country you'd be top 100, from fields of up to 20,000!

  • Well done PC2!

    Heal well Bus.

    If I combine Ric & Bus' posts you get an element of my run last night. Following the plan had me detouring down a road to ensure I hit the distance requirement. The road was unlit and unsurfaced, full of potholes.

    For the sake of plan exactment I could have injured myself and been out for weeks. Lesson learnt. image

  • Stevie G . wrote (see)

     (UG, you out there to confirm?)

    Been following UG's blog (http://harryjohnston.blogspot.co.uk/) and he is up and down but still running. Seen DT2 posted a decent 20 miler on the Thames path a few weeks ago when the surface must have made it 20 miles XC so he is about too.

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