Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • johnas - just the 1500 & 800 double at the British Masters Final in a fortnight. and thats track finished for a yr. image    was talking to a guy who said that the london marathon eliminated his track season as you need time off after it then a build up of getting the Vo2 speed up so you can hit the right times.  so it has put a major doubt in my mind to run london or not.   Our leagues first XC is in 4 weeks at Stevie See's club course.

  • Morning all. 

    Rob - excellent win, and a fine time.  16:19 is very much the right direction I'd say.  Good to see you back to it.

    More excellent representing for the old folks from Dean.

    Tim - having had a very similar Half recently, I sympathise, but you did grand to pull out a time like that after having properly stopped.

    Seb - nice 3000.  A word of advice though - don't post on the internet where you put your car key when you're out running.  I suggest changing the location now!

    Matt - hope you managed to give Ben Nevis a go and the injury didn't play up.

    SG - that's a shocker re the car keys.  I have to admit constant paranoid checking that my car/house keys are still in a pocket when I run.  It probably looks to any passing motorist like I'm adjusting myself.

    Spent the last week on holiday in the Black Forest.  We were based close to a lake (Schluchsee) which had a cycle route all the way round it at a very inviting 10 miles-ish, so was looking forward to getting some good training in for what was supposed to be my peak mileage week of marathon training.  Well, that was the plan.

    Managed a 16 on the first day, including a loop of the lake, which was great, until I tackled the last 2 miles uphill back to the house, and I started to feel a pain in my shin.  The day after it was pretty painful to walk on, so I didn't run, but it started to subside on Tuesday, so I did a 9.  The pain reappeared towards the end, and this time I left it two days before trying again.  This time it was an 8, and the pain appeared halfway through, worse than ever.  That was Friday.  Haven't run since.  Still get pain when I try to walk fast. 

    Seems to be muscular, as it is painful when I stretch my foot downwards - could be the tendon down the front of the shin, which has caused an injury layoff before (although that was lower, where the tendon joins the foot).

    Anyway, Maidenhead Half this weekend is in doubt, and if it doesn't improve this week and allow me to get back to proper marathon training, I may have to reconsider my Abingdon plans.  Probably a bit early to get so pessimistic, but that's just me.

  • sorry to hear that Dachs. have you tried chucking every possible treatment at it? RICE obv, calf compression sleeves, physio? Even aqua jogging to keep the fitness there? 

  • Johnas - nope.  I've been out of the country until late on Saturday, so most of those weren't an option.  I'd love to consider aqua jogging, but I cannot imagine where and when I would actually do it in practice.  Physio appointment may be necessary though.

  • good luck mate. not all lost by any means. when i had something similar in the weeks before Amsterdam, i just replaced a couple of my normal runs with the aqua jogging and it didn't impact on my time at all. lots of RICE and physio in between and i got to the start line in good shape. stay positive

    Dean - i suppose they are quite extreme ends of the scale there and i cant personally say i know anyone that has gone from marathon to middle distance. Maybe Ric can offer some evidence of such an athlete and the effect it has had? I do know some athletes swear that marathon training improved their track times (Paula radcliffe is one) but that's more over long distance than middle distance

  • Just got in.

    Crikey! its livened up around here.

    First of all, sorry I missed that 3000m of yours Seb. A mere half minute better than my own best. Accounts for the speed at which you blasted past me at last years Cabbage Patch (out of sight in a minute or two)

    Hi Johnas, its mostly easy stuff like a long distance warm down. The feeling I get when running at the moment, is knowing I could just smash a sub six mile at any time. But not doing so. When I do a session, its pretty comprehensive and doesn't leave me shattered.

    Dachs. Sounds like a tight anterior muscle. They're awkward to stretch out. But if you can, it can reduce the pressure it puts on the shin bone which is where the pain seems to emanate from. A kind of compartment syndrome problem.

    As for Dean and those track results. Wow! shows what natural speed can do, and also the lasting effects of previous training.

    I think its possible to run a good marathon off one long run and a couple of track sessions per week, but only if you have already built a base first.

    A clubmate Chris Finill, seems to use his annual sub three hour marathon (not trained for) as his base for faster races in the summer. I guess he recovers well.

    But not as quick in recovery as Nigel Rackham. Personal best in the marathon one weekend. Near personal best for a 10k the next.

     

  • That's going to be a hell of a base to achieve that Ric!

    Yesterday's bike and tonight's dinner conspired to make the 8km easy slightly harder than it should have been. As a result I have a massive knot in my RH calf. Been working it out for about 40 minutes and it's still there.

    I need to slow things down again.

  • On holiday I took my kit and ran every other day. Oddly, this gave me 3 very fast runs even though they were planned as easy, and yesterday I did my easy 7.5 in 52 minutes and it normally takes closer to 55. Maybe I need to slow down my recovery runs significantly or eliminate them altogether.

    Will see tomorrow night, 10,000 on the track, targets are:
    A) 36.xx
    B) sub 37.05
    C) 37.xx

    With 25 laps and exact distance and timing it should be easy to pace at 89 and hope for a 84 last lap for 37 dead.

    Dachs, I ws thinking about you last week. Was just over the border from you in Alsace and kept on driving past Dachstein. I recall some talk of German family history and was wonderign iof that relates to your forum name.

    Good runs from Seb, Rob and Dean. Tim, tough race but a 5.40 first mile will hurt. I did Wokingham in 79:35 and controlled the first mile behind a rapid SG to 5:50.

     

  • PMJ - nice - we popped into Alsace for a day out in Colmar, so we can't have been too far away. 

    My wife is German, and I studied German at university, so that's the German link.  Dachs is German for badger.  I was stuck for a forum name, rejected any variation on my initials or real name as too dull (no offence) and it amused me at the time, although I had been drinking and am now at a loss to explain it.  But I'm stuck with it.  Coincidentally, our holiday home was on Dachslochweg (Badger Hole Way).

  • Howdy,

    Been an appalling couple of weeks work wise and car wise! Lost the key, then did some damage, so ho hum!

    Better news on the niggle, whilst not causing me to miss any days running, it did take the quality away for a bit, but I've rebuilt, and today was the final addition back to the week - the tempo!

    5m at MP within a 9miler, and I must admit I wasn't gagging for it, especially as 6.00- 6.10 is the zone.

    However, despite the heat, and me constantly thinking "this is hard work im not that fit", it came out remarkably tidy for 30.00 on the nose!

    Other thing that's kept me ticking over has been training Skinny and Lit, and Lit put in a marvellous 10k on Sunday, details of which on Skinny's thread. Skinny has a 10k up tomorrow, and he's on for a good one too. Quite satisfying, but of course they have to match the training plan with their efforts, which they do with a hunger.

    For those with niggles old and new, Dean/Dachs for 2, I hope you find the combination to work yourself through and keep at the top of your games.

    Seb, terrific 3k, good chunk quicker than mine.20+ secs?

    Bus, welcome back from holiday.

    Everyone else (apologies for quick summary), I bid ye all happy running, niggle free, and hope you're hitting your targets.But most of all enjoying the ride

  • SG, its to your credit that you coach other runners especially with all the problems of late. Having to walk 200 miles home after losing your car keys didn't help though it may have provided some good conditioning as regards the niggle.

    Taking keys for a run in the country for me is a total 'no no'. I've locked myself out of the car before and simply broke in without doing any damage (I know these things) but at least I didn't gain entrance to my 'digs' by smashing a double glazed window, just because I lost a key.

    And then repeat the process the following night for the same reason. (we're talking about a guy with a middle name called Jerk)

    Getting nervous about the race I've got Saturday week. Not so much the race, more the potential bugs and virus's that might get me beforehand. 

    Phil,  welcome back from holidayimage

  • I hate the key dilema, especially during a du or tri. I tend to leave the keys in my transition bag rather than hide them in my bike bag. I worry they'd fall out on the course, or I get seperated from the bike somehow. So I choose to leave then in the 'secure' location that only a couple of hundred people have access to.

    Glad the ramp is back on SG. Is it only me that finds it funny you doing an MP session, considering your views on the marathon?image

    Heal well Dachs. Or should I say Viel gluck mit Ihren gesundheit?

     

  • I never had a problem on any run I either held the key, or had it in a sealed pocket, but for some reason I'd decided to run with it loose in a pocket last week! A one off mistake!

    To be even more secure I've started wearing an arm band with a locked pocket on! That should do it!

    As for MP, it's simply an incredibly effective training zone. It's all very well smashing super hard reps, and having a breather, but you don't get a recovery in a race, you need to learn to hold a hard pace for continuous miles. And tempo is what does that!

  • IronCat5 in the Hat wrote (see)

     So I choose to leave then in the 'secure' location that only a couple of hundred people have access to. 

    ...and then publicise this fact on the internet. image

  • it's safe Lit, i'm quite certain those 650,000 views have come from the 15-20 posters...image

  • 3 x 2miles (2 min recov) tonight longest effort session I've ever done came out 10.45, 11.08 (undulating section) and 10.54 really pleased with that one and only 3 days after last race image

     

  • I hate carrying keys when running so I normally hide the car keys under a log, brick or similar 10 or 20 metres away from where I park it, never had a problem. Even if you know I do this, you got to scan a large area for a hidden key and I have spent ages hunting for dropped nuts, bolts etc within a metre or so of knowing exactly where they are. Only time was when it was pissing down so I was reluctant to get the leather key fob wet and had the bright idea of hiding the keys behind the fuel cap cover. At the end of the run, went to open the cover and found it was locked: appears the car has a delayed locking mechanism for the fuel cap so you lock the doors and a few minutes later it locks the fuel cap.

    Need to work out a training plan for the next few weeks. 10,000m track tonight and then 10k road on Sep 22nd before 10 miler Oct 20th so need to work out how to do a bunch of tempo to get the pace comfortably inside 6 minute pace but also get the endurance to carry that on for 10 miles. Any ideas (other than ricF with Mon 10 miles hard, Tue 10 miles hard, Wed 10 miles hard ... image).

  • robT wrote (see)

    3 x 2miles (2 min recov) tonight longest effort session I've ever done came out 10.45, 11.08 (undulating section) and 10.54 really pleased with that one and only 3 days after last race image

    Machine!

    I fully agree about the Tempo runs SG (though I remember the heated Tempo discussion earlier this year).

    Lit - Shh! it's a secret!

  • Rob, tidy paces, but is the recovery not 90secs on that sesh image

    Phil, my word, that sounds a risky strategy. I knew a chap who used to leave his key on his wheel at cross country races, but then he was driving some clattered old heap, and those XCs are generally miles from anywhere.

    ps you're not doubting 133 days doing the same distance at the same pace every day as a top strategy are you? heathen!

  • Stevie G you may well be right but the Guy I trained with said 2 mins recovery and I wasn't going to argue (He's the fastest V45 over 5K so far this year!!)

    Phil Have a good track 10k tonight never done one but assume it needs alot of mental strength!

    No after effects form last night image

     

  • welcome back PMJ... looks like some good tempo runs and intervals plus 1k and 1 mile reps ahead for you.

    Lit - congrats on the sub 40 10k. Looks like you ran well paced race and were in control throughout. Lots more to come from you for sure

    Must have missed Bus's post so welcome back to you too... hadn't realised you'd gone away. i thought you were standing waiting on the start line of the Wooburn 10k (http://www.wooburnpark10k.com/index.html)

    robT wrote (see)

    3 x 2miles (2 min recov) tonight longest effort session I've ever done came out 10.45, 11.08 (undulating section) and 10.54 really pleased with that one and only 3 days after last race image

     

    Very similar session for me last night (off 90 secs recoveriesimage). 3x 10 mins at threshold (av pace 5.40, 5.40, 5.38)

  • Just joshing Rob, still a good session obviously! Nice one from Johnas too.

    I remember trying to do that 3x2mile HMP session in the snow once, round the local park. A couple of laps per rep.

    The mind was struggling to accept that it was gonna come out slower than on road!

  • Had to switch today and tomorrow's runs around, so today became a single 10.

    Combined it with one last check of the lost key route! A gorgeous mixture of steep hills and boiling weather.

    Rest of today I think is refuelling!

  • Ha ha Iron!! Does look like that though!

    Yep, got back late Sunday and haven't posted due to a combination of being snowed under at work this week and wanting to try and catch up on the thread first image. Will have to try that another time (anyone care to summariseimage) but have picked up that Seb did a storming 3k, Rob is back running stupidly quick, the location of everyone's car keys in case I need a new car, Dachs is injured (hope that sorts itself out pronto) and Philip is racing tonight (good luck!)

    As for me, had a great holiday and managed to squeeze in a bit of running - 100M over the two weeks with about 11000 ft of climbing thrown in. This included an 18M hard off-road in 2:41 and a very nice 20M road run spot on target pace of 2:30 - nice profile as the 900ft of climbing was in the first 7M, which as an out an back route, made a good end! Second week was all run on singles, every other day with the 50M off just 4 runs. A few medical episodes thrown in as well, but will expand on those another time!

    Did a 20M last night in the heat, which was not so good! Very slow - 2:39 image and felt sick after so couldn't eat properly. That's in stark contrast to the two long runs on holiday which were both done before breakfast after a night of driniking to give me the chance to laze about for the rest of the day preparing for the next BBQ and beer session! Hamstrings are also hurting today, so must be a result of all the sitting at work rather than the long run.... 

    Hoep everyone is either OK or on the way to being OK!

     

     

     

     

  • Running is a tough sport: miracles don't happen, you get out what you put in. That really is a summary of last night and the track 10,000. I had put up a target of 36.xx but the reality is that August was not the right preparation for such: just under 110 miles and that flatters as essentially it was one week's proper training and three part weeks of light exercise on holiday that added 60 miles or so.

    Excuses over, facts: set out with the plan of 89 seconds per lap which would get me to 24 laps in 35:36 and thus leave 84 for the last 400 as a do or die. Rolled up early and eyed up the opposition. The race was the Vets AC 10,000 champs so the biggest factor was the spread of ages (from 35 upwards to over 70) which means a spread of times. With a track race it is very hard to run large numbers of mixed abilities so the champs was held as 3 races of about 8 runners each. I just made the cut-off for the first race and there were 8 starters: 4 fast guys and then 4 of us with times of about 36, 37 or 38 minutes (on paper I was 6th). Talking to these they all seemed to be 35.xx road runners with slow track times.

    Started pretty much as expected, I fell into sixth place and ticked along, bagging a second a lap up to 8 or 9 laps but really doing a solo time trial. The next lap showed I did a 90 so I tried to push and did another 89 but the one after that was again slower (91) and from then on it was all downhill. Went through halfway in 18:45 so the 9 or so seconds I was ahead of 90 second pace were eaten up in three or four laps and then the next 5000 metres were just going about business at 93 or 94 seconds a lap to come home in 38:24. Leading runners lapped me twice!

    All in all, useful as a hard tempo run but 25 laps as a solo time trial does not reflect current form and very different to running a 10k on the road with a pack of a dozen or so runners round you.

  • still not a bad effort PMJ. With another 10k and a 10 miler coming up, looks like you just need some work on your speed endurance - longer interval reps + short recoveries and some tempo running too.

    That's some decent mileage there Bus. Interesting that the hammy injury comes back once back to being more sedantry at work. Can I take it that Abo is ON!?

  • Bad luck Philip. I've never done a track race, but can only imagine that its mentally tough to keep a consistent pace unless you are surrounded by very similar paced runners.

    Abo is probably on Johnas! Not going to say 100% yet given the hamstrings and thinking about what effect running a marathon could have on them for the rest of the year!  I have re-appraised my target though. Originally it was going to be give it all for a sub 2:50 and then never run another marathon. That was to be on the back of 5 weeks of 60 - 70+M per week, with several 22+M runs with the last 5 at MP and a second long MP run of 12-15M per week. Given I've been struggling to get over 50MPW and have only 3-4 full weeks left the target is now going to be sub 3 and see what happens in the futureimage

  • Johnas wrote (see)

    still not a bad effort PMJ. With another 10k and a 10 miler coming up, looks like you just need some work on your speed endurance - longer interval reps + short recoveries and some tempo running too.

     

    Yep, fair summary. You get out what you put in, and I knew needed to do those longer reps with shorter recoveries,  just more concrete evidence.

  • fast sessions Rob and Johnas.  (Rob for the record at your speed i would have taken 2mins recovery not 90 as wellimage)

    philip - decent return all considered, i know how you feel regards you feel ok going into the race but once you try to hold the pace for a long time the lack of sharpness and true training becomes evident.  Im in a similar place as i havent really had consistant training over the summer due to injuries/holidays and can feel the difference, if anything im using up the last of my christleton 5k previous training from may!.  i should run a book on my HM time at the end of the month as my summer mileage is minimal and have rarely run over 8m in any run since May (in fact i did a couple when it was the heat wave but thats about it)  It could be carnage! 

  • Joined the local club for a 5km time trial around Penrith last night. There were about 30 runners of mixed abilities.

    The run started on an incline, so that was good to spread people out straight away. A guy about my age went bounding off so I did my best to follow him. Couldn't quite keep on his pace but stayed a bit behind. 

    I forgot my watch, and as it was an informal time trial, there were no markers. Subsequently, I just ran on how I felt rather than knowing where I was. It was hard to keep on what I thought was 5k pace and felt more like 10k at times.

    2 guys came up and overtook me about 2/3 into the race, but I kept on them and took them a bit later, The finish was up a steep hill, so no sprint possible. 

    Came second in 17:12, pretty pleased with that as not a real race. 

     

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