Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • Harry Johnston wrote (see)

    Just curious as to why SG shouldn't be doing all the 5ks etc. I understand he can't expect optimal performance using this approach but in term's of preparing for races later is this still a bad thing?

     I ask because I am looking at races a fair few mid-week races in prep for a race later in the year, but just look to absorb them in my general training cycles?

    Hi Harry

    To steal your own phrase - because he can't expect optimal performance.

    From an optimal training viewpoint there are three genuine reasons to race (because you enjoy them is important, but for me not strictly a reason on its own):

    1)  To give objective feedback on current fitness. 

    2)  To bring you along towards a peak race / provide specific race practice.

    3)  To hit a PB in a peak race as part of a longer plan.

    So, for each race I ask what is the reason for the race.  When there are many in a row there ceases to be a reason for them and it becomes simply because they are there.  Good training stresses recovery, progressive intensity and consistent training.  A race run properly should kick the shit out of you mentally and physically (otherwise why do it?) and impairs genuine training recovery, sticks out in the middle of any attempted progression in workouts and is often a second rate substitute to the training that should have taken place.

    Go to the well too many times and it'll start running dry.  This is demonstrated by people who continually hammer away at a distance week after week - initially rapid progress will soon plateau and typically you'll eventually get slower. 

  • Thanks Moraghan. All seems sensible stuff you are saying. Essentially, if the race can be justified (rationally) then it's worth doing. But if just doing a race because "it's something to do" is not a reason to run.
  • Session tonight didn't go exactly to plan. Half my fault and half the heat and humidity's fault!

    Aim was to do 3 x 1.5m at 10k pace, 5:47 to 5:52 per mile pace.(8:40 per rep)

    Did the first one a bit too quick,  8:21 (5:33 1st mile, 2:48 0.5m)

    2nd was going  a little downhill pace wise, but my stomach was fit to burst, so I hung on for 1mile in 5:59.

    To salvage the session the 3rd  1.5m was in 5:52 pace, on target.

    All in all, tough work, humidity and doing the first one too hard were what screwed it a little.

    But best to try these things out now then in a  race.

  • Best place to learn!  Ideally ease into the first rep of any session and if anything do it a little slower than average.  It's a good habit to get into as the second rep is usually the easiest of the whole lot. 

    Next week is going to be a bit of a bastard but you're up to it - and it is followed by a cutback week of 47 miles and just one race with no other quality workouts.  You'll probably need it by then.

    M:  4m easy; 6m easy

    T:  4m easy; p.m. 9m {3m wup || 4 * 100m strides || 5 * 800m @ 3k pace w / 2:30 recovery || cd.  (Take less recovery if poss.)

    W:  4m recovery

    T:  4m easy; 6m easy

    F:  4m easy;  p.m. 10m {2.5m wup || 5:00 > 5:00 alternating @ MP > tempo pace for 40:00 || cd. 

    S:  15m easy

    S:  OFF

    M:  5m easy w / strides

    T:  4m easy; p.m. Burnham 5k (usual warm up etc)

    W:  4m recovery

    T:  OFF

    F:  4m easy;  p.m. 7m w / 10 * 100m fast (progressively quicker) w / slow jog back recovery.

    S:  14m easy

    S:  OFF

  • Looks a good week to get stuck into. It best be a bit cooler this week, as the 6miler yesterday was reasonably hot, and todays 14miler was hot enough even at 7am.  Even took a water bottle for once.

    A decent 1hr 45 for the 14 though, which is the pace I usually do this easy pace sesh at. Wasn't that bad to be fair

    This week ended at 63 rather than 66mile as I had Tuesday as a 7 rather than a 9?

     ( 2.5m warm up 1/2mile strides, 3.1mile race, 1mile warm down...presume it shouldn't have been 3m warm down?) Looking at the 47 breakdown for the week after next the 5k day comes out as a 7.

    Also Friday ended a mile lower, as it didn't go 100% to plan as previously stated.

    However, confident this week will be the full 66!

  • Yes, 7 is fine - don't worry, I'm sure no one feels cheated about friday!

  • Very hot day today obviously...but a 4 at lunch and a 6.5 this evening (slightly under calculated how far 6mile route would be) nicely easy paced out.

    Hopefully won't be this blazing tomorrow evening as the track 5x800 at 3k pace promises to be tasty!

  • Today was a tough sesh, 5x800 in 3k pace.  3K pace for the 400 repeats the other week was 78seconds...but if 3k pace is 5:20 a mile  (320seconds), that would make it 2:40 (160seconds) per 800?

    Reps of 2:40, 2:40, 2:37, 2:40, 2:38

    So if 2:40 was the target pace pretty much hit it or beat it. If 2:36 was the target pace (78x2) then slightly out. A couple of 2:20 recoveries, but 2:30 for the last 3.

    Slight hazards on the track including the club "helpfully" putting hurdles in the fast lane, and numerous kids almost getting in the way didn't help. in fact 10 kids on one of my 2:40s were within 2metres of getting mown down,,so overall pleased with the session.

    I think sessions like this make me wish I was stacked with a bit more muscle!

  • Your times for the 800s are bang on what I'm doing for 5km type work at the moment. You've given me some good motivation for my 6x1km @ 3m25 tonight. Wish I was back home already though, looks like a late one down the track for me!!!!
  • At least if it's late you won't have a bunch of punk kids on the track!

    What is your 5k pb then? Mine's down to 17:22 but not on a flat course...if you're doing k reps at 3:25  5x  would come out as 17:15 for 5k....but I'd imagine you must be under 17 if you're a mid 34 10k man?

    What do you think is a good calculation for 5k up to 10k? At the moment mine is exactly x2 +2mins.. (17:22 to 36:44).which looks a bit fat.

  • PB is 16.59 but this was pre schedule. I have run one 5km since at 17.17. But this was during a period when I was in the "valley of fatigue". I personally think I am in 16m45 shape or at least have been fairly recently. Using your method my theoretical 5km time comes out at 16.22...suggesting maybe your 10km has a bit of downward movement to come!!! Right, session to be now. Stop distracting me!

  • That would be a sharp 5k!  And yes think the 10k will definitely have a large chunk knocked off next time out on the right tailor made course!

    I'm getting cynical with my course choices now! They all have to be ultra flat and completely road!

  • What about a 10km down at Dorney lake? Think they have a few down there. Boring yes, fast yes. Reps were ok last night, 3m22, 3m23, 3m24, 3m22, 3m26, 3m30. Faded a little, still steak dinner was my reward. When you decide on your key 10km race let me know, I assume it will be local, maybe I can run it round with you?
  • You can pace me around to sub 36 glory! That'd be a sure way of me not laundering my breeks in the first 5k and recording a monster positive split!

    What recoveries did you do in between those splits?

    And Dorney sounds good, 2 of my club mates recorded stonking times of a 37:40ish and a 38:20 ish, when previously they were people who I didn't think had broken say 39 and 40!

    Schedule is stacked with a few 5ks for the next couple of months, unavoidable due to my club championship schedule being more focused on attendance than tiems recorded, but it makes sense to dig out a target 10k in the next few months.

    I'll have a look when the next Dorney ones are. The last one was a day before the Marlow 5 which  ruled that one out, butlike you say they havea  fair few...often with other distances or triathlon type events mixed in.

  • I managed both Marlow 5 and Dorney race!!! Rest was 1m30 jogging I extended this if i couldnt get my breathing back down to a reasonable level. Typically all work I've been doing is with "active" rest unless I'm venturing into 400m tettority. I'll be entering a few races in the upcoming months, not many though, but I'll keep you posted on what I decide. First time running before work in a long time for me, bloody awful it was, now on the way for first day in Bristol
  • Well good luck with that!  Lunchtimes and evenings work better for me than mornings I find, but if circumstances ever change I'd be open to changing it.

     2 races in 2 days! Mr M would cain you for that!

  • Harry - don't encourage SG to enter even more races!  But if you're providing personal pacing services it would be churlish to turn down the offer.  image

    SG - 2:40's were fine for this session.  That's a good session completed there - harder when having to dodge people.  It's not that often you will rep at longer than 800m for 3k pace work. 

  • image

    Looks to be decent solution....

     There is a 10k at Dorney Lake on 26th Sep. That would allow me to get the hectic summer schedule done and dusted, and then have a 2month completely unbroken training period.

    By September, the risk of being hot weather shouldn't be an issue, and on a famously flat course should give a good crack at a good time.

  • to update...wed 4miler, thursday, 4m and 6m, and friday 4miler, all easy paced and cruiseworthy...

    tonight.. a 10miler including 40mins varying between 5mins at 6:23 a mile (MP) and 5mins at  5:53 to 5:57 (Tempo) pace.

    Basically 8 reps of 5mins, 4 reps each at the 2 paces with no break in between. No splits as such, thought the Maths involved  was more than it was was worth, so just worked off constant checks of the watch to monitor pace.

    Upto half way through rep 6, which was Tempo rep 3 I was bang on pace.

    Then that feeling of knowing I was working harder than what was in my stomach would allow! I'll change my diet for these hard effort sessions which involve longer reps. Think I've just about sorted it for the track work, but extended efforts within a long run still unsettle me a bit.

    A 30second pit stop, and back into the game, and the rest of rep 6 went fine, as did the following MP rep. Half of the 8th one went well, but the pace was snaking away from me a little on the second half, creeping into the 610/615s when I should have been under 5:57.

     However, worked pretty hard, and whereas at the start 6:23 felt sharp, near the end the 6:23s were almost the feeling you get after a hard rep when you get the delight of the recovery!

    Therefore, good workout, and should be fine for the 15miler tomorrow.

  • Well done - you need to stop bringing the terds along for the ride!
  • 15miler completed today in the rain! Mentally gruelling as much as physically. To be honest only noticed that slight tightness feeling starting at about 14miles, whereas a few weeks ago this was at around 9miles, so hopefully that's a sign of growing strength...especially after last night's 10miler with 40mins at good pace.

    One question, my club have our annual "Chairman's Challenge" next saturday which this year is driving out to Chertsey, and running back to Marlow over 6 legs, in 25.5miles!

    The schedule has me to do 14miles at easy (7.24 to 7:55)

    Am I ok to do at least 18,possibly the full 25.5 miles, as the pace will guaranteed be slower, as one of the aims is we run as a group. In fact last year I was getting frustrated as a couple of oldies insisted on doing the full 20 (less distance last year to celebrate our 20th club bday) which slowed the pace hugely.

    This year should be a bit faster in more well fitting groups, but definitely will be below the slowest easy pace.

    Next week was meant to be a reduced week, but I'm hoping slower miles but longer distance will equate the same effect? Let me know your thoughts. I don't have to commit to anything until the day itself.

  • Good news with regards to the tightness - certainly a positive sign of adaption.  I'd like to get to a point where 15 milers are comfortable all the way.

    If you fancy doing that next saturday then go ahead.  Just for shits and giggles we'll say you have to earn it by PB'ing on tuesday.  No pressure though.....!

    Only one change I'd like to make if you do it.  Make friday's run 5 miles with 5 * 75m strides and make that the only run of the day.  Obviously Sunday now becomes the day off instead of saturday.

  • 5mile easy today with 4x100m strides. Always an odd feeling the day after a rest day, but as always the run goes easily.

    Will cut the friday schedule as you suggest, and then judge on saturday how much I run, will definitely aim for about 18 at least though. I think the schedule had the sun as the day off anyway.

    Will do my best tomorrow...some say it's the hardest of the 5ks in our local little series, but then I managed to do it 14secs quicker than any of the others last year, so who knows.

    What it does have over some of the others is some nice little down bits and being completely on road. The ups are fairly short, although the last 100metres being up a little bank is always a teasing end!

    looking foward to it now.

  • Burnham 5k race today, Unofficially another pb...by  1second again!!

    17:21 is what I have, splits of 3:03, (7:02 for next 2k), 3:31, 3:46

    (realise these come to 22 not 21...but they're rounded and was deffo 21 on the line!)

    To explain a few things....  the first k has a downhill bias, and the last k has a reasonable incline, hence such big contrasts, I didn't just smash the first k and struggle the last oneimage

    I was neck and neck with the winner for a good 2.5/ 3k, hence missing doing the split for the 2nd k!

    However, I knew I was working hard for that, and he went into overdrive on a downhill, which was also when I fell into 4th, behind a 34min 10k man, and a guy who's popped up in all of my last 5 races, we share the spoils, and he edged me out today. 1st was perhaps 20-25sec ahead, and the other 2 perhaps 5 and 10 secs ahead?

    So basically 4th, out of the usual 250-300 so all good. The last of the all road 5ks, but the other 3 are all 100% flat. The next one at the end of June is probably the fastest one, outside my own  club's 5k, which I could pressure to do, but I won't as that would be another race to the scheduleimage

    So far so good...5 races under the Moraghan regime and 5 pbs so far! And 6 pbs in my last 6 races, best run ever image

  • Well done on the race, sounds like you competed well.  I guess you're free to run the full distance this saturday!
  • I'll fill my boots!

    Should be fine though as the schedule has thursday and sunday as rest days!

    Thursday will probably be tough to rest on, but sunday I'm guessing will be a cinch!

    And then we can get cracking back on the training!

  • Well done Stevie G! Enjoy the long run at the weekend
  • Ta chief. The ironic thing is that none of the 5k series are really pb courses...so in a few months I guess I should look for a proper flat road course.

    Saturday promises to be good...potentially 25.5miles, in the heat albeit it at slow as sin pace . I'm expecting it will once and for all blow all crazy thoughts of ever doing a marathon out of my head!

    It'll be good to get amongst my clubmates again...as they probably think I've gone all big time on them with my online coach, warm ups and stridesimage

  • Not when you're telling them all too slow down!
  • when we set off at 12mins a mile on saturday i'll try and remember that!

    Although I did marvel at the amount of people before the race yesterday doing their warm ups quicker than me, even though they ended up racing 5mins + slower over 5k!

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