Moraghan Training - Stevie G



  • It would do us all good (just may be a bit harder for us bloody minded old gits!).

    First interval session for about a milllion years today! All went OK, didn't push too hard and stuck to just 5 reps of 0.5M off 90 sec. Came out a bit slower than the last one I did, but not too far behind, maybe a couple of seconds per rep in 2:50, 2:52, 2:48, 2:53, 2:46 (odds slightly uphill). Best thing though was there was no pain from the groin strain, so fingers crossed that is back under control image

    Also, I was trying new shoes. Some dirt cheap (£15!!) Li Ning jobs from Start Fitness. They were alright - look the part, very lightweight, enough cushining for a short session and comfortable enough. Slightly slippy on greasy tarmac, but then a lot of racers are. I got them to leave at work for my lunch time runs.

  • Good luck with that Matt. I'm sure we'll see some great improvement.

    I have explored getting a coach. I go in cycles where I think I know what I'm doing and then have periods of doubt. A coach would have told me to take this week a lot easier upfront, after Sunday's race. It's taken me 5 days to work that one out...

    18km LSR today, target pace of 4:38/km. To be honest I'm wiped out, and last weeks 14km at a slightly faster pace didn't hit me this hard. Recovery needed in time for Sunday's XC. On top of that I'm still getting used to navigating in a new area and instead of finishing near my house I had a further 2km to do at the end albeit at easy pace. The good news was even if I'd walked the 21st km I'd have a new half-mara PB image

    Nice reps Bus. Similar times to what I'd aim for, at least your slowest one was! Glad to hear there was no pain too. Onwards and upwards. New shoes too. I really need some new runners.

  • IronCat5 in the Hat wrote (see)

    18km LSR today, target pace of 4:38/km. To be honest I'm wiped out, and last weeks 14km at a slightly faster pace didn't hit me this hard. Recovery needed in time for Sunday's XC. On top of that I'm still getting used to navigating in a new area and instead of finishing near my house I had a further 2km to do at the end albeit at easy pace. The good news was even if I'd walked the 21st km I'd have a new half-mara PB image


    Hardly surprising you are wiped out: LSR should be slower than MP and not faster than HMP. My fastest LSRs come out at about 90 minutes for 13.1 and my PB is 80.

  • So much to catch up on! Managing the balance of a new full time job + training, but not managing to fit in forum-ing on top of that. Or shaving my legs, it would seemimage


    Interesting debate re: coaches. I trained with a coach for a while and loved having someone to bounce ideas off/telling me I'm doing OK when I'm being a bit hard on myself, but haven't found one I like as much as him since moving back to Scotland.


    Good reps there Bus. Glad the groin held up OK.


    Bit late in coming but congrats on the PB Lit. Hope you've been on a high all week after that and enjoying your running.


    This week has looked like this for me:

    M: 10miles inc Pyramid track session (as above!)

    T: 8m av pace 7:26, inc 3m @ MP (was goosed after this)

    W: 8 m av pace 7:40

    T: 10m inc 6 x 600m off 200m jr (2:08, 2:11, 2:11, 2:13, 2:13, 2:13) felt really hard, never really done 600s before so wasn't sure on pacing then finished with 6 x 100m strides (18s)

    F: 8m @ 7:52

    S: 13m 'LSR' @ 7:42... not really lsr pace. at all. oops. Fully intend to recover from this with a day off tomorrow, and potentially some liquid carbs (bud) whilst watching the rugby.


    Hope everyone else had a good run today!

  • That's a big week SR - looks like you deserve the day off tomorrow image

    Iron - I'd echo what Philip says about LSR pace. Always tricky when navigating new routes too.

    Can't seem to post on my tablet anymore - after the first line, all the letters come out backwards - very odd!

    Right, just out for a shortish run to see how running tow days in a row goes. I've decided not to risk an XC race tomorrow, but if today's run goes OK, will try to get a longish one in. Very short on miles this month! 87 so far with just a week to go (compared to 281 in September!).

    Good luck at Sandhurst tomorrow Philip, and anyone else racing this weekend.

  • I hear what you're both saying, PMJ and Bus; you both have a lot of knowledge and miles between you.

    My last standalone HM and PB was Feb12 and I have made considerable gains since then so I feel it is somewhat dated.

    I'm following the Furman FIRST HM plan which is known for being 'pacey'. That said, the track, tempo and LSR paces are within McMillan's pace windows plugging in the appropriate numbers.

    This is week #5 and the previous 4 weeks have been fine. It's cumulative fatigue I tells ya!

    See those that can at Sandhurst tomorrow. Next after that is 8th Dec Bus at Handy Cross.

  • Haha, thanks Scottish - more like insanely busy at work and with a filthy cold, but I am pleased to have managed a HM PB after all the fainting nonsense. Your week's training sounds hardcore (I have been pootling around doing easy running and some strides). What pace do you use as MP? I imagine we have similar training paces as we have similar recent 10k times but I couldn't do the training you do - and would have strong words with SG if he tried to make me. image

    Bus - I'm glad you're not racing XC tomorrow.

  • So am I Lit after that run just now - atrociously slow! Not entirely sure why - partly hangover (I've remembered this morning why I very rarely go for a lads night out anymore!) but legs just bizarrely tired after yesterday's easy reps.

    Iron - Handy X XC is a possibility. It's very close to home and one I've been tempted to do for a while. Only problem is, the Andy Reading 10k is always the next day. This was supposed to be a target race this year to take advantage of the so - called marathon fitness I was supposed to have, but can't see much sign of! I'll try a couple of tempos in the next couple of weeks and come to a view then.

    Is next week a cut-back week Iron?

  • Scotty, that training just looks mad. 2 track sessions, tempo, no easy running all stacked in a consecutive 6 days? What's the thinking?  I only have Lit to compare to, as I believe you're fairly similar at 10k, but you're doing all your running much faster. She has a marathon time about 20+ mins quicker too, so maybe some food for thought.

    I expect you're fairly smashed half the week, whereas I'd imagine Lit would say she's trained, not strained.

    Iron, hard to judge on yours, as you insist on measuring in km for one thing, and like you say your race times are dated. But the absolutely wiped out comment should give some idea!

    Bus, Handy Cross is a hilly one. From past experience, it normally takes me about 3 days to recover. These days to be honest, I give it a wide berth, as you have to judge the beneficiality of something taking that much out of your week.

    Some vague tight ankle, slight foot aches this week, but doesn't seem to be worse in the last mile than the first, so I take that as a sign to carry on.

  • I like the HX cross country for about 364 days of the year: the day I hate it is when I have to run it but I look forward to it and reminisce about it afterwards.  How much it takes out of you is a function of how much you put in. I don't train a lot on hills (and more so if I am planning a flat marathon) so it is never going to be a great race for me but being the closest to home and early in the season it seems silly not to do it. Later in the season a lot more becomes obvious and the pressure to make a team becomes less. Last year Datchet started out 3 and 10th in the first two races ...

  • SG just think of 4;20min/km as 7min/mile and work off that. so Irons' pace was circa 7:30min/miling I guess.

    Don't like the look of that FIRST plan at all! ouch. 'Pacey' is one word you could describe it as Iron but I could think of many other terms. LSR at HM pace+ 20secs, seriously! Basically just off MP! Negligible easy running in the whole plan.

    It would have me do 5 x 1km at 4:40min mile, how insane/impossible is that. Must be a beginner plan.

    Good training Scottish, not too hardcore really, that tempo is very light so only two quality sessions there and lots of miles. Not sure what your easy pace should be if your not blasting them sounds fine.

    Glad to hear things have cleared up Bus. Been a tough month for you. Onwards and upwards hopefully.

    Been keeping my Plantar Faciitis just about in check wearing Dr Scholl sports orthotics in my work shoes to support the arch and wearing a full on night splint to keep the foot dorsiflexed and keep the PF stretched all night so morning discomfort is greatly reduced. Piriformis flared up abit today too on my LSR but hopefully no worry.

    13.5 road miles this morning to bring me up to 59miles for the week. All easy running, half on and half off road, with just one fast hill reps session. Supposed to fartlek run tomorrow but tempted to have a rest day or short recovery run.

    Have fun tomorrow Philip as usual, don't think anyone else is racing this weekend?
  • Seb, it's the overall mix that I think makes it hardcore training. I make the 600s faster than Scotty's 3k pace (3.6km quantity, then strides, all in a 10miler!), the pyramid paces seem to be somewhere around 1500 pace (again within a 10miler), a high mileage week (around 60), tempo the day after the reps as well.

    Then on top of that doing the other fairly substantial runs, 8-13milers, 10-20secs above easy pace.

    Phew image

    I'd never find myself doing 1500 and 3k pace work with such high mileage. That would break me.

  • ML84ML84 ✭✭✭

    It sure looks a tough week does that Scottish, although Ive put myself through the wringer this week.

    sun- Abbeydash, 

    mon 6 mile easy

    tues hill session in an 8 miler, 

    easy double on wed am 4 pm 9

    thurs 6 x 1000 off 1min. 3.11-3.15

    fri easy 5 

    today- 2 mile warm up then parkrun in 16.26. then 11 miles on the fells watching the full tour of Pendle. Prob 2000ft of ascent thrown in. Will have an easy trot out tomorrow, only 6 miles or so as it's my daughters christening. 


  • Seems I've created some discussion. 

    See,  LSR is HM+30 in mile terms so 7:30 for me.  You are right in the lack of easy running in the plan,  however it is based on an additional 2days min of cross training. The articles that routinely appear in RW seem to neglect theses other 2 days. Glad to hear you're on the mend anyhow. What is your 5k time btw? 

    Scottish,  that certainly is some week! 

    Bus,  next week has a 2x2mi tempo vs this week's 6mi. The LSR is shorter too,  so a cut back week if you will. 

    Busy week Matt. SG are you at Sandhurst? 


  • IronCat5 in the Hat wrote (see)


    See,  LSR is HM+30 in mile terms so 7:30 for me.  


    Odd, so for me MP (and by that I really do mean marathon pace) is 6:30 and so I do my LSR at two mixed paces: the first half at MP+20% (7:47) and the second half at MP+10% (7:08) so average 7:27 or MP + 60.

    Don't know how you get to HMP+30, is that 30 seconds or 30%?

  • So that's +30s based on mile pace or HM+ 19s in km. Sub 10mi/16km LSR are +20s (mi) and +13s (km).

    'HM pace' is derived from the pace tables in the training book, based upon a 5km time and gives 4:19/km.

  • We all know by now that Scottish is proper hardcore though! I know you don't like speedwork SG, but those sessions arn't far off the mark, I did have a look back at that Pyramid and although the paces were different for all the distances, not my style as you know I'm a sucker for a particular pace, but if you look it was off 200m recovery, so as the reps were mostly short the recovery period was relatively long, hence it was probably a speed reps session. So even if they were 1500/mile pace that's spot on, painful for the 600's but do-able.

    The 6 x 600's, a short interval session, was at least completed in equal times, therfore the pace can't have been dramatically fast. Whilst I advocate 5k race pace in these, true Vo2 max is apparently more like 10-12min race pace at the most. So 3-4km pace. Lots of coaches actually just let athletes run them as fast as possible, as long as the session can be completed and the reps ran at equal pace. Which Scottish did. Not my way but one of the many ways to skin a cat no doubt.

    Iron only did 2 5000m track races this year about 6months ago, think they were 16:30 and 16:40. Not the best, but reasonable outings, went out too hard both times.

    The HMP + 30 Philip is just FIRSTs' methodology, well HMP + 20 but Iron just looks to have slowed it down a tad, no where near enough though! maybe its because its only 3 days a week? no time to run slow! haha
  • That FIRST plan is a bit odd if it is this one:

    Says that "Planned Marathon Pace (PMP = 10K pace plus 45 seconds)"

    and it doesn't seem to matter how fast or slow you are, just 45 seconds. My 10k pace is just inside 6:00 and every other calculator reckons 6:30 pace. You have to slow to 45 minutes for 10k for +45 to be reasonable and a 3:30 marathon.

  • Seb, it's simply the mix of intense AND high mileage that leaps out rather than the sessions themselves.

    The 600s in fairness don't actually look too equal, 2.08, 2x2.11, and 3x2.13?

    ps I presume it was you doing the 16:xx 5ks, and not Iron as you said image I'll be wary of him today if it was him image

  • I wish it was me! 

    PMJ yes that  looks like an early edition of the plan. 

  • Good luck then Iron, SG and Philip! Doesn't look too cold today, maybe a bit breezy.

    Isn't that just how Scottish always trains? Some people can handle it I guess, just like your 60-70mile weeks were beyond me last year but are do-able now. You adapt to the stress. Does seem a tad what I call 'boom or bust'. You adapt or you break down, kind of over reaching then super compensation vs. Over- training or injury.

    As for the FIRST plan Philip has it spot on with the 'it doesn't matter how fast you are...' comment. The figures just don't work for faster athletes, that includes you Iron! Now your in week 5 though I guess you'll keep going, keep us informed of how you get on.
  • Back to square one after today's run. What started out as a pleasant road run through some undulating Chiltern's lanes ended up with pain and a long, cold walk back home! The first 6 or so miles were fine, I even felt quite strong and managed a couple of sub 7 miles. Then the minor discomfort started, but  instead of easing as I tried to ignore it like last week, it just got worse, until at 9.4M I had to stop and walk. On reflection, it was probably a bit daft doing 3 days in a row, but there you go. Not sure what to do now. Might take a whole week off and see what that does. On the plus side, it got me to 30 miles for the week and dragged me through the 2000 mile mark for the year.

    I hope the Sandhurst racers have got good reports to cheer me up!

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

     Bus. Freewheeling around niggles and injuries from one week/month/year to the next can become a habit. Before you know it, you look up and realise you've been messing around, compromising and nursing maladies for years.

    I spent from 2003 to 2008 doing that. Then I gave up and started from the beginning again. All ambition had to be eradicated, its a deal I made just so I can go for a run without it hurting all the time.

    First run following a family bereavement, 3 miles easy. Went ok.


  • Sorry to hear that Ric, hope things are easing in the family! Makes our arguing and fretting about running seem really pony!

    Bus, you're the most game on the thread for dealing with niggles, I doubt anyone else would get as much running in as you do with what you get through. Lucky you didn't try and smash it today at the XC really! Anything making you stop to a walk needs urgent action though. Maybe just a physio to get an idea on what you need to strengthen, as we all know to our cost that resting just eases symptoms rather than curing much.


  • Had a nice drive down to Sandhurst for my club's home XC with Phil. For some reason, the postcode they give is a few miles away from the army training land the race is on, so it's always a bit of a faff finding the way, as all the roads in the area look the same!

    However, we were still there with a nice hour to the start, at the scene of one of my stressiest ever drives, back in 2006 turning up with 10mins to go, on a gloriously torrential rain day!

    It's races like this where you realise how many running pals/aquaintances etc you have. With my old club, current club, local club and many other pals/rivals etc being there it was one of those rare races there are almost too many people to chat to. Add to that at least one local hotty who I long lost my chance of years back, and it was time to focus on the actual race!

    The feeling is always odd at your first xc of the season. Not quite sure who you'll be rivalling against. I'd come 5th and 6th at this one in 2010 and 2012, but you could tell the quality was more stacked this year. Classically, you find the standard and numbers drop as the season moves on, and this year it's certainly started higher than last.

    The pace at the start was furious, fuelled by a nice down early on. The course is a nice mix of hard trail, woodland, mud, soft trail and a couple of gentle short climbs, with even a sand section thrown in near the end.

    Things were settling, and it was 50/50 with people I knew of, Datchet , Graham and a few others, and some new faces to the scene, including some guy in Clapham Chasers vest, which was unusual, as a closed series.

    A couple of miles dead on 6.00 min miling were a good grounding, and this race is quite nice, as it's only just over 5miles.

    Things started settling, and I had a Reading runner as company, with a Wargrave chap that I didn't recognise.

    Midway I started thinking how it wasn't going great again, I'm not sure if this has always happened, or if im starting to get mentally weak, but things were ticking over well, mile 3 6.05.

    The Reading chap I knew had once done a 1hr 15 half, but I'd had the better of recently, and we were neck and neck. He kept trying to slur out some words, but only "Wargrave" and "Cum onnnn" came out. I  gathered that he was saying we needed to catch him. "On the last hill" I said. Thinking i'll hopefully have you too.

    Meanwhile midrace, little Chris B came sauntering past, saying "hello Ian" whilst looking ridiculous comfy. He must have really been coasting early on, seems to have an odd racing style sometimes.

    Anyway, still in the battle for a couple of places, we faced an up and steep down, a sticky sand 600metre section, and started to build for the last hill. You all know it's coming, but I usually find people round me smash downhills, and trundle the ups. Therefore, I knew If I could keep in sight by the bottom of the last downhill it'd go well.

    And the experience of that showed, as dropped the Reading chap who was working quite hard, and gently levelled with the Wargrave guy.

    You get to the top of the hill, and still have 400metres to go. I edged ahead with a burst and nicely held on.

    I thought I don't recognise him, but then I remembered last year I'd nicked a place right near the end so checked the pic.

    it was only the same guy. We'd basically run the same race again! 2012 shot below.



  • final results aren't out yet, but 11th place, must be out of 300ish, 31.12 ish for 5.2miles, 6.02 average pace, so 1min 12 quicker than last year (although that was more waterlogged), and 11 secs or so faster than 2010, which I can't be certain was the same course!

    Therefore, feels a better result than I felt during!

    I'll let Phil obviously tell his story, and maybe Mee Meep if he's on the sniff around these parts too?

  • Who's Ian?

    Bus - I agree with SG: get it checked out!

    Ric - sorry about your news.

    I spent this morning running a 10k at basically the same pace as last week's half, in exchange for a Christmas pudding that was a lot smaller than I expected. Might win something for 2nd ladies' team, though, which would be nice as it's about the first time we've actually managed to field a ladies' team at all.

  • Cross country today. Our league starts late but then gets a lot in quickly: 4 before Christmas every other week and then 4 afterwards in 4 weeks, then Wokingham Half. That is a full race calendar for marathon campaign and may be pruned.

    Sandhurst today which is a nice course: it is only just over 5 miles long and not particularly hard so a nice one to ease into the series after the flat grass at Datchet 2 weeks ago. After a week away on business and 4 runs Monday to Thursday, this was a cutback week and a rested race so no real excuses to run slowly. Normal fun getting there with satnavs and MOD areas but no panic, a gentle 2 mile jog warm up to see the start of the course and then strip down and off.

    Fell into place in what looked like the right group of normal suspects and headed out. First quarter mile is on a track, then a steep downhill which flattens out, sharp right and technical tracks before opening out onto the beach which is an area of sand which is always getting dug up and ploughed. Sharp uphill and hit the mile marker before opening out onto the heathland. One big lap and one little lap, and the group was moving nicely. The heath has a few hills but generally flat and I take the uphills easy so I can power away at the top. A few pass me on the up but I then take more on the flat. At about 3 miles I am passed by a fellow Dasher so I tuck in to keep him honest as he is out of the scoring places. There are cries of first lady coming from behind which rejuvenates me (I came in behind 2 ladies last outing) and then we reverse the first bit: steep down, beach, twist, hill up and run in. The hill up is always fun to see what people do as many overcook it and redline but then find there is 400 metres more.

    Overall 25th in a time that was about 30 seconds slower than a couple of years ago but way faster than the injured run last year.

  • Figures are 5.22 miles (SG must have run a short courseimage ) in 32:56, average pace 6:19. 34.3 for the week (after 3 weeks of 50+) but 160 for November so an easy 40 will top 200.

  • Rest up and start again Bus. Sorry to hear Ric. Well done SG and PMJ. See,  I will keep updating everyone. image 


    I got to XC a bit early but used it to chill out. Didn't feel great this morning. Tired and Race - anxiety. SG has it well describing the opening race (for me). Where will I finish overall and for club? What if I am shit? I met with some other Coasters and realised I wouldn't finish first for the club. A third might be possible. 

    Exchanged plenty of banter the TVT th end went for a warmup jog with another  coaster,  about 2.5km. Went to line up and met PMJ for the first time. Then saw SG. 

    Race wise,  it was a lot of hurt. I went out too fast and was waiting for the wheels to fall off. Especially in light of Fridays LFR and yesterday's 3hr Chiltern's bike ride. I tried to hang on to a TVTer which I managed until the fenced uphill. Then in to the other part of the course where I played cat and mouse with Jenny from Sandhurst. After much up down round and round I caught up with Coaster #2 and told him to sort it out and planned for a joint finish; better placing and points! 

    He overtook me on the last hill and I got him and a dasher on the last kick. Crossed finish and given a token. Saw SG who asked how I did so I looked at the token to see where I'd come. 

    2011 was 113rd and 38:52. Waterlogged 2012 was 109 and 39:23. 

    This year was 48th and 34:20 on the Garmin which for the distance measured is 4:00/km. A clear 4:30 faster than my previous best and testament to my first year's "proper" training. 

    Decision to run in spikes was interesting from the achilles viewpoint. Didn't seem to be too bad though. Think my XC shoes are a till in a box somewhere! Interesting to hear about the 3day recovery from HX. May have to rejig a week. 

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