Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • Ha. I set these sessions basing them roughly on a training programme I've skelpt from a very good runner... must be a sadomasochist!!  

     

    Looking forward to hearing how the pyramids go!! I had no real idea on pace either.. was pretty much as fast as possible pumping my arms and dying. I'm not sure if I'd describe it as fun, and haven't been the most productive this afternoon! image haha

  • I like the way Nikki G now matches Stevie G. image

  • Intended. Hoping similar username = similar running ability.

  • Better put a . on the end then for extra matchiness.

  • Nikki G wrote (see)

    Ha. I set these sessions basing them roughly on a training programme I've skelpt from a very good runner... must be a sadomasochist!!  

     

    Looking forward to hearing how the pyramids go!! I had no real idea on pace either.. was pretty much as fast as possible pumping my arms and dying. I'm not sure if I'd describe it as fun, and haven't been the most productive this afternoon! image haha

    Nikki - this rings alarm bells to me and I'm sorry to say it, but it sounds like you're not really sure what you're doing. It sounds like a fast track to injury.

    The schedule you are following, what was the goal of it? Is it the same goal as you're trying to achieve?

    How more advanced than you was this runner?

    If you don't know what pace to run in a session (and you're setting your own sessions), then I would question whether you understand what the purpose of the session is and its desired outcome?

    I'm not trying to piss on any fires here I promise. but it does sound like you're running a bit blind and without an understanding of why you're doing things other than a someone you know who is a good runner has done them. What's good for the goose is not always good for the gander.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Hasha mimashita Francis desu, dozo yoroshuku. O terai wa, nan desu ka.

    Thread outing to Japan, no problem. I speak Japanese.

    SG, Not really frustration more a minor inconvenience. The main problem I have is getting out of the training habit.

  • Ric, if you're struggling and need a friendly face, feel free to have a little trip out this way and we'll get a little run or 2 in if you like.

    Nikki, have to ditto Johnas there. It's one thing looking at sessions that someone you admire does, but you need to see how the sessions progress, what level of training is right for you, and why you're doing that session and when.

    I've learnt plenty off Moraghan and in turn coach Lit and Skinny. They're both your pace or quicker, and are capped at 40miles top end. That contains a simple tempo session, usually MP/HMP or through to true tempo, and a pacier session. I think you'd run faster by working less hard, as mad as that sounds!

    I'm still thinking about that 1500 and 3k paced work in a 60mile week, both sessions totalling 10miles, throwing a tempo in the day after, and also doing all the easy stuff too hard!

    Phew.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    SG, Sounds good to me, cheers. I could do with a change of scenery. It will give some purpose to my recovery.

    Ankle much improved today. Mentioned to Bus about stopping stretching injured areas, which is what I've done in this case. Sometimes the only way for a structure to repair is to stop heaving and straining it.

  • Evening all. That's timely Ric! I'm trying the not stretching thing as far as the groin is concerned - echoes something a previous physio said about letting the injury settle down before building the stretches gently. Stretching like a loo seemed to be working last week, but typically fro me, I just overdid it trying to get back to normal levels of running too quickly! I'm hoping that a week off will see me OK.

    Nikki - I've always been in the "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" and relatively unstructured camp of training. However, having seen my own results either plateau, or improve only marginally followed by injury, compared to the likes of Stevie and Johnas coming on in leaps and bounds, I'd be inclined to take their advice.

    30 miles on the bike today (14+16). Really enjoyed the ride home as well - going fast on country lanes in the dark seemed somewhat more pleasurable to running slowly through a sea of mud somehow image

  • ML84ML84 ✭✭✭

    Nikki, I think I'm very much in the same boat as you. I did some hill reps last week and it was a case of smashing myself up them as much as I could. 

    With regards to the track sessions. Mine are picked from the Internet and as I'm always running races around 5 - 10k the paces etc are based around that. That's until I enter random 15 - 23 mile fell races then I still do the track work but do my long run on the fells. Haha. As you can see its pretty scientific. 

    only once have I ever done a session at MP or HMP and that was around 3 weeks ago. I've just started doing some tempos again but I will be doing them on a treadmill. 

  • Ric, google says you said:

    F's is the egg that saw champion, Dozoyoro holidays. Contact Terai sum, what is the day.

  • That's cos Google translate is still pretty crap! Very complex algorithms but still shoves all the words together and comes out with a nearest approximation without any regard to context. Even worse when there is no direct match between alphabets.  'Francis 'is translated as 'F's egg' even though it is a name!  Dozoroy is two words put together from letters in dozo yoroshuku  (best regards?). More like something about seeing Ric the Champion's number on the day?

    Still, Japanese is Greek to me image

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Ok, I'll admit its been 15 years or more since I rattled the lingo off but what I said had a literal translation of, "My name is Francis, please favour me (best regards). "Where are the toilets?".

    Two anecdotes on this if you can stand it.

    A guy I knew introduced me to a girl he met at some music venue. When he said, "This is ****** and unless you speak Japanese (which he didn't) there's not going to be much to say as she speaks hardly any English. Needless to say he was surprised that I did, and no doubt well annoyed when she burst out laughing at my little joke. (I suggested that he had shit for brains) but of course he didn't know that.

     The other was that a company I once worked for had connections with a place in Japan. One day their chairman came to visit. Obviously no one upstairs spoke Japanese and since I was clearly downstairs I was simply no one at all. However at some stage I bumped into the 'chairman' having a cigarette outside alone... 

    The following day I was brought before the 'board' who delivered a " Mr Hirohito was delighted and honoured that one of this companies employees respected his country enough to learn its language", adding something along the lines of, 'why did it have to be you?'

     

  • That last line made me laugh Ric! (I'd say lols, but I have come to hate that expression!)

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    Good stuff Ric, though I'd question the need to introduce yourself before asking for the toilets.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Dachs, unless things have changed culturally speaking, if you didn't introduce yourself first you may find on making such a request being directed to the only dealer in Japan of used British made cars from the 70's.

  • Thanks for all the feedback. I'm certainly aware that I'm treading very carefully on the injury line, feel like I've been v lucky, so almost waiting for it to happen! I def seem to be in the 'what doesn't kill you camp'

    As a bit of background: I fannied around running ~ 3 x 5km/wk + weights for a couple of years (was very overweight, so these were v slow.. about 35min!) Started taking running more seriously last September. Then ran between 60 and peak weeks of 76miles per week until running marathon in April. Training was less than ideal and would do it very differently now. Very, very little rest and a lot (LOT) of v low intensity running with no speed work whatsoever. Anyway, ran the marathon, came back, joined a club. Since then been on at least 50m/wk  and we all know what my training is like. I'm apprehensive to drop the volume (exercise related anxiety I suppose!) as I don't want to loose any fitness/get fat again!!image and I also wonder if there is an argument that I've tolerated a high mileage for quite a while now, so is there a need to change?

     

    However, all your advise above indicates so.

     

    The plan I'm following has the athlete at 80mile weeks, so I've basically adapted it to for me, reducing the mileage/sessions by ~40%.

    So a week for them in 10k season looks like this:

    M: 9m easy
    T: 4m tempo + 200s (am); 4m very easy (pm)
    W: 9m easy
    T: Intervals (6km max) (am); 4m very easy (pm)
    F: 6m easy
    S: 10m MP + 100s (am); 4 miles ve (pm)
    S: 12m easy (am); 4 miles very easy (pm)

    Stevie G., with your coaching, what's the rationale for Lit & Skinny being on a low mileage?

    I've already posted my plan for this week above, but will maybe cut out running the doubles on Saturday and do a gym session instead which would take me down to 60 miles.

     

    Go on... slate me image help me image make me win! I'll listen, I promise. Haha

     

    p.s. sorry for this post being a bit narcissistic!

  • i have no idea what all this chat above is...but then 7am 12milers tend to leave you not really knowing what's going on. 6.52 pace as it was the classic slow to warm up, then midway suddenly pace much higher and a struggle to keep it down. Headfones died at 10miles, meaning a last 2miles hearing the lovely sounds of the main road!

    That's all folks til Friday.

  • Nikki G wrote (see)

    Stevie G., with your coaching, what's the rationale for Lit & Skinny being on a low mileage?

    Ooh, here's a bit I can answer! That is, SG might have a different rationale, but from my perspective, although I do actually do some weeks of 45-ish miles and am building the mileage back up at the moment for marathon training, I really don't think I could be arsed running 60+ miles every week all the time. Especially as I don't run that fast - it's hugely time-consuming. Not that I'm not committed or anything.

  • Clearly my opening line of my last post was about the previous page's lingual debate, not at Nikki's post!

    Nikki, I'd throw the question back to you, why are you doing such high mileage this soon in? For someone in the 38-40min terrain for 10k, I wouldn't say 35-40miles a week is that low a mileage at all.

    With Skinny, he had injury problems, so we've had to find a way to make him faster without overloading him. 35-40 with a well thought out tempo, and a second lighter quality run of the week combined with proper easy paced running has seen him comfortably bring his pbs down, and I don't have any doubt at all that he'll  carry on in the same manner even as a mid 40s chap. He set a half marathon pb when ill recently for goodness sake!

    The next plan is to ease his total mileage up, with just easy/light work, and then get a new base period in, with a view to peaking for the spring. He's also a very commited and game character who is doing a lot of strengthening/rehab/prehab behind the scenes.

    As Lit says, she's done higher mileage for marathon attempts, but 35-40 works well for her current stage in running. She's pbing, and there's plenty more to come. Again, she pbs at her last half marathon, even after a recent 3 week illness/unfortunate ankle tweak break.

    It's hard to say as I haven't a 100% handle on your background etc, but I cannot for a minute escape that you're simply working too hard. I wonder if you have any idea on base/progression/peaking etc? Doing super fast track work in the middle of high mileage weeks without any real goal plan suggests that.

    I'd want to see you do a period of low intensity higher mileage stuff, steady/MP/Hills focusing on form not speed, then gradually increase the intensity and drop the mileage.

    You can't hope to last all year smashing it.

  • I think SG has put it perfectly Nikki - it's about periodisation and progression. You need to look at blocks of training rather than a constant smashing of mileage and sessions all the way through.

    A guy at my club asked me on Monday why I never seem to run for the club in the Grand Prix series. He couldn't understand that I peak probably twice a year and I spend the rest of the year building up to those peaks.My next race for example is Wokingham in March. I'll do some XC but the point of them is to build strength in this next 8 week base building period.

    Having just done a marathon, the last thing I'm going to do is try and hang on to that mara fitness through winter by continuing the same sessions as pre marathon. My next goal is VLM, so now I've had a few weeks off post mara, I will start rebuilding up for that Spring marathon. It's pretty much broken down into 3x 8 week blocks, with different objectives for each, with the final one being VLM.

    What are your immediate training objectives? I doubt you're mara training so why do big mileage? Are you aiming for a 10K? is speed you objective? trying to do everything like you currently are is just increasing your injury risk

  • ML84ML84 ✭✭✭

     we're more and more alike with every post Nikki. Haha. I find myself struggling to sit still of a night. I find myself thinking I'm not doing enough if I'm not doing 50+ miles a week with a couple of sessions thrown in! 

    The only base building, periodisation and peaking I've done over the last 2 years has been when coming back from injury and has resulted in me getting 2 PBs off the back of it. All by accident of course as if I wasn't injured I'd just be going about my normal weekly routine. 

    Thats one of the reasons I've been after a coach etc as I could do with being told when NOT to train. After asking a former sub 30 10km bloke at my old club some time ago what he'd recommend me doing to get my 10k time down he told me to hit 70 miles a week regularly and finish my track sessions twice a week either ready to faint or about to throw up. image 

    Hes now in his 40s and about 18stone. 

  • Matt, half of that advice you were given sounds terrific and half stupid! Sounds like a bit of bravado talk there!

  • Which half is terrific, the fainting or the throwing up?

  • hit 70miles a week.

    (not you Nikki..you do too much as it is)

  • mattl wrote (see)

    Thats one of the reasons I've been after a coach etc as I could do with being told when NOT to train. After asking a former sub 30 10km bloke at my old club some time ago what he'd recommend me doing to get my 10k time down he told me to hit 70 miles a week regularly and finish my track sessions twice a week either ready to faint or about to throw up. image 

    Hes now in his 40s and about 18stone. 

    Now that's a training style straight from the 80's brings back memoriesimage no wonder so much more quality in depth then!

  • there's defintiely a place for those kind of sessions, just not twice a week or even week in, week out!

    I had my club doing a 5x 800m session on Monday night, where the first 200m is ran hard & fast, they then 'ease back' in to 5k pace for 400m and then finish on a fast/hard 200m. Due to intensity, recoveries were 3 mins between reps. I quite enjoyed seeing them all on their hands and knees at the end of it, knowing that the adaptations will come from running them so hard

  • I use google translate a lot as I work with engineers worldwide and get email threads sent to me that are pages long and have 2 sentences of poor English (but still way better than my Japanese or Korean) at the top saying "It doesn't work, what can I do?". 

    The most useful phrase I have found is "Two beers please, my fiend will pay". This page gives that in many languages.

  • Did one of my monthly handicaps yesterday: just over 3.2 miles and they paces came out as 6:01, 5:58, 5:55 and 5:42 for the odds and sods so a nice progressive run, getting faster as I go but probably due to seeing people ahead and chasing them down rather than any actual pacing on my behalf. The handicap has an odd scoring table with merit points: one for running and then handfuls for other categories in the old F1 "winner takes all" style so some months it is one point and other I get ten, so in 4 years I have accumulated 56 points compared to the leader who is over 600 points, so another 40 years or so will see me at the top of the table. One of the hard things is that David Cox also runs these who is a great V60 athlete, but also most likely the unluckiest as his run at Cabbage Patch 10, 58:59 for a V60, only got him second in age category as the winner was Martin Rees who set a new age group world record.

    8 at lunchtime today, then looking to do 18 tomorrow, 7 am, as the first step to 20 before Christmas.

  • I suppose my rationale is that it's worked so far. I know I can't keep that going forever!

    I pretty much counted my marathon period as my base, then have focused on 10ks from End of June through to now. My goal was to break sub40 10km by the end of summer period, which I did in September.

    Now I suppose I am just a bit lost for a goal! I would quite like to try some middle distance but am struggling to find a race to aim for.

    I do prefer doing the interval/high intensity stuff...

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