Moraghan Training - Stevie G



  • Blinding effort Dachs.

    Floor fitting, tv installation and kids' parties caused havoc today so missed the club ride. Did 90 minutes on the turbo in the garage aka the new man-cave.

    Tempo tomorrow; 2x2mi.

  • Sounds good to me that Dachs. Well, that's my 10K pace! But wait till you look over the results till you assess it. XC has a nasty habit of making you feel like you've had a shocker but upon looking at results you usually realise it was a good outing.

    6 and 4 for me today. Very easy. Everything felt fine.

  • spot on summary of xc Stevie, and exactly what I experienced last week!

    And that sounds more like It running wise for you after the other day!

  • Nice run there Dachs: the top leagues are certainly a step above the social ones.

    parkrun this morning and field was not strong so I had a go a a first finisher but race Sunday, race Tuesday and 18 mile Thursday had their say and I had to follow round for 3rd overall. Still happy with 55 miles and a LSR tomorrow which will be a good indicator how the 55-70 P&D plan will play out.

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    SS - good point. Unfortunately the results had the opposite effect, and I was about a minute and at least 10 places behind where I should have been. Never mind, I spent December last year running like absolute crap, but when it came round to Wokingham in February it all came together excellently.

  • Dachs, as we say to others, running is about peaking and running periods. You have to pick your A races and accept that when it isn't an A race you may be down a bit. I'd swap your crap running for my A race pace any day BTW.

    So 12.5 this morning at 7.5 pace to bring up 67 for the week. Technically, as we finished before we started Sandhurst last week it is actually 76 in 7 days but that is a bit of a cheat.

  • Seems pretty sharp to me Dachs, even if not quite up to your road performances. As you say though, different training and racing focus at the moment. 

    Big week Philip. What are you planning to average in the run up to VLM?

    SG - was that cyclist a guy with shoulder length hair and a big droopy moustache?

    Just been out myself for a xc 4 miler including a couple of half mile sections at what I would estimate as xc race speed, to see whether a week off has done the job and got rid of the groin strain. Unfortunately not! Not painful, but definitely there still, so not quite sure what to do now. On the plus side, the hamstrings aren't hurting at the moment! Also, I went to a wedding yesterday which turned into a long drunken affair with a couple of hours of rather vigorous dad-dancing involved image, so was pleased to be ok enough today to go out and run at all!


  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Bear with me Bus on this one, but if you are unaware of how an injury is going to react to to any running at all. How sensible is it unleashing sections at race speed/effort?


  • Good effort on the XC Dachs.


    Haha.. any videos, Bus?! Nothing like a run to clear the hangover sometimes. Sometimes, it's just simply not possible so well done!!


    6.5m easy for me yesterday... and then, wait for it... a strength session in the gym instead of a double! Not done one of those in months. Was surprised that during lunges my HR was actually pretty similar to that of an easy run, so overall feeling a bit less anxious about running a little less/cross training a little more.

    Combined with some yoga this morning, and my god, my abs are absolutely killing me!

  • bus, I am following P&D 55-70 plan. I will start after the New Year so it will be 14 weeks which sits oddly between their 18 week and 12 week plans so I will need to cut and adjust them. I need to really understand the plans anyhow as P&D is really about teaching you how to think and not "follow this plan" and I need to make gross edits such as I can't do a long run on Sunday so I need to do that midweek and I can't take a day off after the long run as I can't rest midweek and do two runs at the weekend.

    I guess the average will be low to mid 60s and that will be a LSR (say someway near 20), a MLR (15), track or tempo session (10) and then 3*7 miles recovery for 66.

  • Bus, nope, I guess there's a few drunkard goons in this town on bikes!

    And Dachs, 20secs under your 10k pb pace on grass with undulations cannot be seen as a bad effort. Maybe don't do some of the hillier woody courses at TVXC if you think 5.46 was a bad pace!

    Ric, chuckled at that. Bus doesn't follow the rule book! It's offroad and steep all the way! Though in fairness, there has to be a point you test something, so short sections probably sounds the best approach. Otherwise you'll be retired if you wait for a week or 2 where everything feels perfect,

    Phil/Seb, anyone with feet stuff keeping them out for a while, what were your symptoms? I just thought I'd check, as I'm doing all my runs still, but still have this odd mix of slight tigt ankle, and slight feel on the side at the front of the foot. Doesn't feel like metatarsalgia, certainly isn't lower down and PF, so just wonder if it's some light internal bruise...

    Anyway, 14 today at 6.57 pace. 

    And Phil, Lit is doing the same programme, with me slightly tweaking it here and there. Quite surprised at a 4miles at Threshold In the first week?! Sounds the equivalent of some of her peaking sessions from a month/6 weeks ago, let alone starting at that! I'll read up on it though. Especially as week 2 is much less demanding?

  • SG - I'd been thinking I must have done it last year, but now realise I was using the first edition where the first week is a fair bit easier and you don't have to do that session till week 3. Perhaps that'd be the way to go again this time? In fact the whole first week looks pretty similar to what you've got me doing next week.

  • that'd be because I've set it up that way so it's less of a transition, trying not to break rule number 1, increasing quality and mileage at the same time!

  • I know. Clearly back in the days when P&D were a bit nicer that's how they'd set it up too.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Well obviously I've a foot problem that is now into week seven. From the initial mistake that was a XC race, I recovered for two weeks when with one mile remaining of an easy ten miler the damn thing 'let go again'.

    Nursed and treated for three weeks and then it 'went again' after only two miles. Seemed better the next day, then worse. Buggered if I'm going to New Zealand limping so I've packed in any activity that even hints of making things worse.

    Mountain biking this time most likely.

    When I get injured I stay injured.

  • what are the symptoms of it Ric?

  • Nice long run SG. Keep an eye on that foot.

    Doesn't sound good about your foot Ric, had thought that had resolved itself. You're right about the speed/effort of course, but the efforts today were more a test than anything. They weren't eyeballs out (probably a slight exaggeration to say XC race pace) and only two reps, with a long slow warm-up and warm-down. I did them, as sometimes putting a little pace in can help loosen up a problem (funnily enough, I was thinking of you mentioning "un-sticking" when I did them!). Certainly they didn't seem to make things worse, the reverse if anything, similar to the reps I did about 10 days ago. It seems to be distance that is the factor, which is why I stopped at about 4 miles today. I am going to start stretching properly again now though. Staying injured is partly an age thing (but then look at Chingo...). Will wait to Tuesday to try another short one and keep my fingers crossed, as the only other alternative if a week wasn't enough wold be to take two or three weeks off!

    One thing I am going to do next year is stat following the rules a bit more (!) and try to be a bit more structured in following a program. It will still have to be flexible to allow for running to work and fitting in around the family, but I guess that's the same for many people and exactly what you'll be doing Philip.

    Luckily not seen any videos of my dancing so far Scottish! Good to see you doing the alternative stuff!


  • When we're talking about P and D we are referring to Douglas and Pfitzinger? I've got 2 books by them, really good but the marathon 16 week build up looks very difficult. Only one session per week but a 'medium long run' of 14 miles and the threshold sessions are pure nasty. There's a lot of 4-6 at tempo (10 miles pace). I'm thinking of following there 10K specific plan and tweaking it mileage wise so it will accommodate HM training too.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    SG, Well sitting or standing still, nothing. Walking about I can feel something but not much of any concern, however, if I keep the sole of my foot flat on the ground while trying to crouch down I can really feel it. The area is behind the achilles where it's joined to the heel bone.

    The problem is that even the easiest of jogging puts a massive strain on that part of the foot. The 'rest' phase of the running action is the killer position. I tried short runs, walk/ runs. Pace is barely walking. Waste of time really, the moment the area becomes sore it remains noticeably sore for a couple of days even with ice.

    Yesterday I tried extensive ice treatment. But that resulted in no improvement that I could notice. Its a chronic job alright. On reflection its worse now than when it first happened.


  • Lit, make sure SG has read P&D (I can lend him my copy if he wants to) as they have their own definitions of tempo, LT, MLR, LSR pace etc which are a bit easier than SG may be used to from Moraghan which look to be pretty close to Jack Daniels definition.The whole idea of the faster running is to make MP feel easy and not to leave you on the ground after a 4 mile tempo and then suffer on a LSR which is the key run of the week.

    Also P&D do change quite a bit through the mesocycles:

    Mesocycle   Objectives
           1           Increase mileage & improve endurance (longest mesocycle)
           2           Improve lactate threshold & also further improve endurance
           3           Race-specific training/preparation (incl. tune-up races)
           4           Taper and Race
           5           Recovery

    so during mesocycle 1 you concentrate on endurance etc.

    They also change quite a bit within the mesocycle with recovery weeks.

    The 55-70 is quite a lot to take in and I did the up to 55 last time round with a few extra so it is new territory for me

  • Still here, albeit skim reading.

    Nice mileage week phil and good first xc of the season Dachs.

    Yes p&d is Pfitzinger and Douglas Ss. I don't think much of the serious road runner book, fraction too easy.

    Unlucky Ric can't believe its been 7 weeks now, have you been using anti inflammatories? The naproxen the gp gave me are meant for that type of thing.

    No symptoms for me SG, was in the shape of my life and feeling strong. just all of a sudden after my fartlek run last Sunday the ball of my foot became painful. Well its much more specific than that. Pain confined to 1cm squared! No pain around that point but put even minor pressure on this little spot. Ouch, so can't toe off or walk properly. I'm convinced its a stress fracture of the lateral semasoid. A rare but debilitating injury. Caused by an increase in mileage. I ignored the 10% rule, my bad. Negligable improvement so 0 miles ran this week. Maybe by Christmas I'll be back. With get a private MRI scan of the foot bones if no improvement by then. Screw the NHS and my GP who doesn't even know what a sesamoid bone is.

    Swimming training starting this week. Seriously. Need endorphins.
  • Phil - I've got both editions and am going to send him the 1st edition (less to read! image).

    I do think though that some of the longer LT runs even at half marathon pace are a bit hardcore - I did manage them last time but the pace was not particularly controlled. Since P&D say the main aim is to improve lactate threshold (a secondary aim being to simulate the marathon with continuous fast running) I think it might work better for me to split them up into long tempo reps or similar. Anyway, there's plenty of time to work it out as we go along.

  • Seb, let's hope it's not that then to say the least! But pain on walking is always the first sign isn't it. Good you smashed those pbs in.

    It's amazing how little foot related stuff we get bearing in mind the weight that goes through them every run.

    Phil, don't worry, we have the P&D spreadsheet, which maps times, pace zones etc. I'll do my best to understand what's going on, but will make tiny tweaks where needs be.

    These last 2 weeks have been getting Lit's mileage back up with zero quality, so she's not suddenly surprised by the starting at 54miles week 1!

    The main advantage she holds over, pretty much everyone on this thread, is she does weekly core classes and is well versed in all that guff as a pre empt against injury. ie as opposed to the likes of me who everything I do has been physio advice on a rehab basis!!


  • Seb, I agree that the serious road runner plans are too easy. The 10K plan has 1 session a week and then some 100m sprints. Longest run is 12 miles too.

    The revised marathon plans in advanced mararthoning are gruelling though. 6 miles tempos?! I'd have to find a flat as hell route to survive that!

  • 6-7miles at MP is a good workout. Made into quite a hard workout by mixing HMP in.

    Just 6miles anywhere between 10k and HMP pace (depending on your terminology), sounds bloody hard indeed.

  • ML84ML84 ✭✭✭

    Seb, hopefully its nothing major. Last year I had a spell out with a pain in the ball of my foot. started off as a bit of pain but as I was training for Chester marathon I stupidly ran/limped 20 miles on it. Woke up the next day unable to put any weight on it at all so got it xrayed but no fracture or break.

    ended up going for a scan which was around 5/6 weeks later when the pain had gone. Typical!  That didn't show anything up and I never found out what the hell it was. I did plenty of x training while out and around 7/8 weeks after getting back running I broke 34 mins for 10k. 


  • A lot to catch up as usual.

    Bus - RicF beat me to it! Ric - not a heel spur?

    Seb I've had something similar cropping up annually for the past few years. I swear it was gout at one point. Last March it hurt to even put a shoe on. As randomly as it appears it went again. This year I have a tiny sore point on the side of the ball of my L foot. I'm probably overdue new trainers. Plenty of holes in my current pair.

    Lit/SG - long LT runs at HM pace. Sounds familiar and a bit FIRST like.

    Temp: 2x2mi (3km actually) with 1.5km in between. 12:20 & 12:44. I overcooked the first one. I'm deliberately picking undulating routes so I have to deal with hills at pace. I do seem to be a 3 pace monkey: Fast, LSpR and Easy. Tempo sits between the first two and takes some getting used too. Nice to do some easy mileage around and within the tempo sets too.

  • mattl wrote (see)

    Seb, hopefully its nothing major. Last year I had a spell out with a pain in the ball of my foot. started off as a bit of pain but as I was training for Chester marathon I stupidly ran/limped 20 miles on it. Woke up the next day unable to put any weight on it at all so got it xrayed but no fracture or break.

    ended up going for a scan which was around 5/6 weeks later when the pain had gone. Typical!  That didn't show anything up and I never found out what the hell it was. I did plenty of x training while out and around 7/8 weeks after getting back running I broke 34 mins for 10k. 


    It's stories like this that I remind myself of when the chips are down. Gotta just keep plugging away.

    Hope all the injuries are clearing up but we often fear the worse. Stay positive and try to avoid self diagnosing...  I have so far had about 63 stress fractures, 16 calf tears and 4 minor strokes. image Funnily enough they all cleared up after a week or 2.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    A read through of my last post paints a grim picture, but lets face it, its only a sore ankle, it will get better at some point. 

    IC, I know its not a heel spur so ok there. One of the best runners I knew was finished by that one.

    Seb, your injury sounds more like an inflamed ligament. The clue is the localised nature and intensity of the pain. 

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    Wokingham shaping up nicely.  Browsing the entries, I see at least six threaders entered.

    Times expected are 1:12, 1:13, 1:15, 1:19, 1:20, 1:29.  I won't put names against times, but it's all there for anyone who wants to browse.  Good fun.

    Entries also include Mara Yamauchi!  Thought she'd retired?  Anyway, aiming for 1:14, so there's the tantalising prospect for some of us of running alongside an Olympian.

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