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The problem with most runners getting involved in a marathon, is that to do the job properly it means casting almost everything else aside to make room for it.
Vast numbers get to about this time of year and realise the VLM is only weeks away, but they've been running all the XC's for the club, the RR's for the club, the races that they always run every year because they always do and the track sessions because they like to 'chill out' with the guys.
Where does marathon training fit into all of that.
Lets face it, several runners on the forum ask for advice that the reply renders meaningless, because what they really want is to have different result. But without changing a thing they aren't already doing.
when i get the VLM bug you can be 100% assured that i will happily cast aside all XC races for that yr. in fact to be super sure i committ to not doing xc the yr after, just to be safe
You are right Ric, but most people want to have their cake and eat it! It's the size of the commitment that makes me think I might not do another one, but then I've said that after them all
Philip - I suspect the medium long run is where my previous campaigns have been lacking.
Stevie - you've already pulled ahead of me on the PBs you've targeted, and the rest will follow...
I don't agree that is is quite as black and white as ric makes out. There is a middle ground and you can do XC but you have to plan round it and understand and accept the implications. I was racing on Sunday and doing a 20 on Monday and having tired legs for the long runs is actually a better stimulation, but I couldn't race all out on Sunday knowing I had to do 20 the next day. Road relays, on the other hand are much easier as they fall into the race preparation phase and so all the fast marathon boys were out last weekend at the relays apart from Mo who was getting the taste of New York streets: literally.
Yeah, but your planning is meticulous, which means not only do you get to eat your cake, you will have a great VLM as the icing on it!
i always got the impression from afar that Philip "runs" not "races" his xc/relays etc in build upto the marathon. leaving himself fresh for the training the following day/week.
seems a smart plan to me...
Who's upset Stevie G? MIA again!
2nd threshold on trot again yesterday but only 45mins after 60 mins threshold Tuesday this time average HR 155 average pace 5.59min miles, 7.53 miles covered!!
Tonight 16*1min (1min recov) in a HR zone 162-176 I haven't tried this yet in this wind that should be fun!!
You marathon boy's amaze me with the intricate way you prepare I'm coming to London to watch hope I have the opportunity to see you all race well
Huh. Marathon boys.
Lit so sorry and girls
should be a good session Rob to get feed your short speed needs
tonight i have 8*300 hopefully the wind dies down a bit as its blustery at the mo
DeanR7 wrote (see)
should be a good session Rob to get feed your short speed needs tonight i have 8*300 hopefully the wind dies down a bit as its blustery at the mo
300s in the wind are fine if you pick the right start and end points. I was doing 600s the other day and had a tail wind on two straights and a head wind on only one.
The wind is being a twat at the moment.
Rare speed session for me last night - 11 with 10 x 2 minutes fast/1 minute slow. I didn't want to know how slow I am at the moment, so thought I'd do it time based rather than distance based (on the road). Felt pretty smooth, especially considering I didn't start til 8:30 due to an evening meeting.
Then 12 today. Meant to be easy pace, but rather surprisingly, particularly given the wind, easy pace crept dowin into the 6:3x range. So I just wound it up from there, finishing at MP. 6:34 average for the 12.
Good to see others hitting those speed sessions.
Ric is right re marathons taking over everything, and every race in preparation needing to be subsevient. To be honest, I'm sick of it now, which is why this will be my last marathon for at least a couple of years. I just want to race regularly, as and when I feel like it. SS, I left out the medium long run for Berlin in 2012, barely did any at all. You can still do OK, but it wasn't anywhere near what I could have done with that extra endurance boost.
PhilipMJones wrote (see)
. 300s in the wind are fine if you pick the right start and end points. I was doing 600s the other day and had a tail wind on two straights and a head wind on only one.
depends what mood my coach is in. if he is in a Rocky 4 type mood where all adversity makes us stronger he will have us do the last 100m straight into it!!
hopefully its your method above!
depends what mood my coach is in. if he is in a Rocky 4 type mood where all adversity makes us stronger he will have us do the last 100m straight into it!! hopefully its your method above!
Coaches are usually OK until they start playing round with that extra shit as in "6x800, do 6 and then they say, OK, do another 1". This used to be standard army fare. so much so it defeated the object and nobody put a hard one in as they knew there was an extra one.
Some good sessions there. Definitely agree about the wind! The first mile of my lunchtime run felt like I was running in chest high water - weird, as it just seemed constant.
Anyway, managed a slow and steady 9 miles off-road. My longest run for ages, with just a twinge at the end to remind me I'm not quite out of the woods yet.
Funny to think this is all a hangover from doing Abingdon (albeit partly not recovering sensibly)! I sacrificed a couple of my favourite races at the time because of it, but was happy then as the marathon was the bigger picture. However, as the time itself was disappointing and I've now been struggling for six months to try and maintain fitness I'd say taking a couple of years off marathons after London is a good plan Dachs!
Phil is correct in that the issue of marathon training v normal service isn't quite 'black and white', but as Dachs has mentioned, it does sort of spoil everything else.
I've had it with marathons myself. Mainly because I cannot do the training and more obviously because my system simply cannot stand operating at such an intensive level for so long.
I trained last summer to run a fast 20 miler. I blew up at 14 miles! it was as though my body had said 'right son. that's enough, desist'. So I might run another HM but really its 10m and less for now.
Rather impressed by the sessions RobT & Dean.
Being self coached myself I find it rather easy to sort out sessions and the like, but as the race distances reduce towards 'track racing' the 'being coached' aspect becomes ever more important. At the extremes such as sprinting, its really an area where coaching/observing becomes critical.
Good sessions Dachs and winding up to MP tut tut!!
Bus good to hear your getting back to steady mileage but watch that injury !!
3rd tough session on the trot for me and first short speed work for a long time 16x1min (1 min recovery) on cycle path 1st into wind 2nd with and so on covering approx 320-340m per effort around 4.50ish mile pace so not flat out but strong and consistent covering approx 3.4 miles in 16 mins pleased as after 10 mile at 6.03 ave Tue and 7.5 miles at 5.59 pace last night
Easy 30 mins tomorrow well needed and I'll be in Oslo doing it
Rob - phew!! After 3 sessions like that an easy one is definitely on the cards! Oslo eh? Very cool! (actually should be sunny there tomorrow...)
Bus - hopefully that niggle clears off soon. You deserve a clean run at some training and races free of injury.
rob. A very productive week. Fast legs mate. They will never leave you.
dachs- looked a good session, I have to be honest that I don't fully understand Mara training sessions but I do feel confident you are in good shape. Keep the beliefe.
as mentioned above 8*300 for me Off 3 min rec. The wind was a pain & swirling so in the end I just went off the 300 start line and had the worst of it on the bend for the 100-200 section. Target was 47/48.
they came out 46, 46, 47, 46, 47, 46, 47, 46. Very happy. Wasn't overly pushing the pace so wasn't finishing each rep bent over double but they weren't easy either.
46, 47 seconds for the 300's. Dean, I can imagine you powering your way around the track doing those. God help any kid who aimlessly wanders into the inside lane of fire while you're doing so.
Being smaller and lighter than most kids, if I had a collision there'd be a bit of an 'even stevens' bounce. In your case, they'rd end up in the ticket office or a nearby field.
300's then, at that pace. I managed one once. The guy who suggested the 'session' could do a 4 minute mile.
I followed him for one rep ok, about a minute later I tried again and lasted 50m. He managed to do the other eleven, finishing with a 41. I was still recovering.
However, I'm still running. He hasn't for 20 years.
RobT, it will be interesting to see the results of this relatively intensive block of training. In the past I've gained significantly from maybe 3 weeks worth like this, but usually after several months in the doldrums.
The signs I get now are, that if I tried the same, I don't get quicker, I simply get more worn out. Dammit.
Nice that the discussions are involving various training ideas. We all do different things but nice that something may be of use to us in there.
At least we are spared the "I hear what you're saying but don't want to hear about that" stuff at the moment.
I'm going to Oslo for long weekend to have a go at x country skiing and to watch a world cup biathlon I'm going with 2 other running mates and staying with a 3rd so running over there as well hopefully intermingled with a few beers
Dean great pace can't wait to see your times when you start trying but watch for signs of injury as training at that pace really puts strains on "older" legs !
Ric I agree need to listen to body and assess how this new training effects body over next few weeks only consolation at moment is I'm not feeling much different the day after these sessions as I did before. I'm reassured that it takes 4-6 weeks for body to adapt but ignore pace and stay in HR zones and the body will look after itself! That's easier said than done when used to judging everything by time, pace etc.
That sounds like a good consolation Rob. It means your recovery is level. There's a lot of training that sends the victim ever more tired on top of fatigue. Its very heroic I suppose but beyond a certain level the body doesn't spring back enhanced, it merely struggles for survival.
Exchanged a few texts with SG yesterday, nobody has upset him (apart from maybe the real SG at Old Trafford when Liverpool beat ManU 3-0) but his thread mojo has gone away so is taking a break.
I'm down for tail runner at parkrun on Saturday as a precaution to ensure I take it easy and then will do a steady 20 on Sunday to bring up another 70+ week and end the bulk of the marathon training. Then the taper starts.
Getting feedback from training is very hard. As Rob says, it is weeks for the body to respond so you train hard one week and are faster a few weeks later, when you have forgotten what you did those weeks ago.
you are right ric, last night there was a couple of youngsters having a chat in lane 1, and as i barrelled towards them an apologetic coach grabbed them out of my way just as a hearty bellow of "TRACK" was brewing.
Rob, agree about the recovery on old legs. i woke up today sore. First time in ages. the pace + the wind was maybe a sec or 2 too fast this early even if i felt controlled last night in the session. Got to think of the long game. so instead of a 45min run i am taking today as rest to recharge.
Great paces Dean, getting back to the middle distance training? You appeared in my dream last night by the way, on the start line of a race. I'm taking this as a sign that I need to spend some SG-style time away from the thread.
As for SG, if he isn't here does that mean we can wildly speculate as to which races he has entered?
Enoy Oslo Rob, I'd love to go one one day. I once knew a Norwegian girl ... (drifts into pleasant daydream)
Why does that make me think of the Beatles Dachs ?
Thanks Dean - I agree, a bit of un-injured training and racing consistency would be very welcome! It's been 13 months since I was completely injury free now. VERY quick 300s those!!
Have fun in Norway Rob. I've always fancied cross-country ski-ing, whereas never really have felt like the downhill variety.
Dachs wrote (see)
As for SG, if he isn't here does that mean we can wildly speculate as to which races he has entered?
So it is only 3 weeks and 2 days to VLM, and he has a copy of P&D ... taper madness maybe?
i used to spend a fair bit of time in oslo when i managed the northern europe office. used to spend a week hoping between oslo, copenhagen & helsinki. Ate like a king but beer was expensive. Great places to go out and explore...you will have a great time Rob. Slight tangent but i was in helsinki when lordi won eurovision, it all went off...you would have thought they had just won the world cup.
Dachs - did i win the race? be good to know if im achieving target times in dreamworld or need to train harder. was it a half? does it count as a PB ...i mean if Samir counts pavement PBs surely these are as reliable?
yep. all eyes on middle distance training now. i might do a 5k and 10k on route but really as a temp check early on, i doubt i will get near PB form. we are doing about 6-8 weeks of alternating between 1k & 1200 reps each week but trying to get these quicker to give us all a base. the thursday sessions for the same period are really about getting a good running economy and cadence back. i doubt i will push the pace any harder than last night until we move out of this base phase and into specific training in May. where it will be sessions like 4*300 with 7min rec but target 42 secs. they will hurt!
I don't think the race had started by the time I woke up. So, sorry, no PB for you there.
15m ave pace 6.54 this morning.
Good luck with wilmslow tomorrow stevie see.