Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

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  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    physio. oversaw me do possibly the least flexible "touch your toes" of all time, we're talking upper shins here! And noticed a right to left imbalance

    Got a powerful new hamstring stretch i'd not seen before, almost like a hurdle sat on the bed, and one for mobility in the back/shoulders. Told to not worry about the other stretches, just these 2, but we'll see with that, as generally the more the better with stretching isn't it.

  • Stevie there is a school of thought that static stretching does no good and that dynamic stretching is the way to go!! but what would I know? I can't stretch beyond mid shin and I'm told this can effect injuries, cadence and potential speed ! Agh that'll be it then! image

  • I think in reference to flexibility it sometimes can be meaningless



    My dad who is 66 and probably 16 stone at least, fat not muscly I add, he can put the back of his hands on the floor straight legged.. Now he has never been sporty or done any other than fit carpets his life!



    However everyone I speak too regarding running does advise good flexibility....
    Pain is weakness leaving the body
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    That'll be why you are so slow then Rob image

    Did you try the Indian Knot SG? I find it deeper than the bed stretch one if done properly.

    Joss gave me a jelly baby once during Borrowdale image.

  • ML84ML84 ✭✭✭

    I can also put the palm of my hands flat to the floor when stretching. 

    That said the physio i see always mentions how tight my quads are, my right one barely touches my backside when stretching it. I also get a slight bit of a niggle on the outside of my knee when doing that stretch on my right leg. 

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    have done so many variations Bus it's not funny. However, you lose faith a bit unless it's prescribed....the guy asked what stuff i did for hip flexors and glutes too, so when he said "just do these 2 stretches" i think he meant, "for those areas".

    so i think a sensible plan is something like

    1) new hamstring stretch, leg out on bed, other leg off the bed, backwards like a hurdle.outstretched leg flat.

    2) lie on side, legs folded. both arms out, one on ground, one slowly lifted. When arm is parallel with head, you watch the arm go and touch the floor the other side, while keeping the legs touching the floor.

    3) classic hip flexor

    4) one of the 3 glute stretches

    5) hip mobility , lie on side, raise leg.

    Long and short of it, is i can always remember it being a bit tight on the right hamstring on and off over the years, but one sure fire way to make it super tight is to do years of fairly decent mileage on it, so eventually some kind of minor breakdown occurs!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Matt3 wrote (see)

    I can also put the palm of my hands flat to the floor when stretching. 

    i can remember being able to do this! image

    The current is the least flexible ive ever been.Upper shins basically! ill get on it tonight asap!

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    What you want is pilates, SG.

    Congratulations Dachs. image.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    The natural reaction of muscles due to training is to get shorter.

    Longer muscles work better than short ones, ie faster. So letting your muscles shorten will slow you down.

    Muscles are also only prepared to work dynamically at a certain % of their full static range. So a limited range will also slow you down.

    Flexibility might have some bearing on avoiding injury.

    I know a couple of runners who scoff at the idea of stretching. Not only do they look crap running. They are crap running.

    Bottom line is, going from inflexibility due to training, to flexibility will give you extra speed for no effort.

    Needless to say, I have full flexibility in all areas required for running.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    so we should expect your fastest times in the last few years imminently then Ric old son? image

    I managed to actually touch my toes after doing this new stretch. No doubt it'll seize back up, but isn't going to be an overnight fix!

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    My Mrs has taught me a few yoga moves that really help stretch out the main leg muscle groups - downward dog (calves), Indian knot (hamstrings) and a couple of others for adductors and groin whose names escape me!

    Nice run home tonight  (if a bit warm!) so double off-road 5.6M at sub 8mm pace, which is relatively quick fro the routes, so happy with my post-race legs.

    Got to take the kids to Thorpe Park tomorrow - really not looking forward to that!

     

     

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    SG, already reaped the rewards of going from barely able to touch my knees to the full flat hands on floor. Nothing left for me to gain.

    However, in your case its a free reward. Stretching out will release a mass of saved up training results.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    couple of months ago I tried to "reward" myself by improving my core, but like an idiot newbie did a sh!tload of ab stuff over 2 days, meaning the next 4-5 days were a staggering mess.

    The next week things tightened up. However, separet Oesteo and Physios have said this is a coincidence rather than down to my boobery luckily.

    It is an odd state, this will be my 5th 58ish mile week in a row. Say that to most people, and they won't understand how you can possibly claim to be niggled. But obviously we as runners understand, as we trade in timings and paces.

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Maybe the key to removing those niggles is some speed work o flush whatever is causing it out - who knows, but sometimes the body works in mysterious ways! My adductor problem certainly feels a whole lot better after a race that I thought would finish it off....

    As for your core stuff - you should no better Mr G!!!

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    I'm prepared to trade in any activity that possibly reduces the speed of recovery.

    Its a state of mind I drop into when injured. I'm not a runner with an injury/niggle. I'm just injured. Once I rid myself of the injury, I become a runner again.

    What I don't do (anymore) is attempt (and succeed) to fit in the odd race or session during the re-hab phase. Had enough of chronics.

    My neck of the woods is littered with the remains of injured guys who still think they are runners. Some of them have been carrying injuries for 20 years. 

     

  • ML84ML84 ✭✭✭

    I like the state of mind thought RicF. I tend to look at it the other way which doesn't help. Usually end up depressed. 

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Matt, another way to look at it, is like having two different training schedules. 

    One for injuries, one for running. There can be some overlap, though for an overuse injury its total separation.

    Can't be arsed to go through weeks and months of re-hab anymore, so I do whatever I have to, to avoid getting injured in the first place. That does knock 'race times', but the upside is longevity.

    Our sport is loaded with more than enough 'firework' runners.

     

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭
    RicF wrote (see)

    I'm prepared to trade in any activity that possibly reduces the speed of recovery.

    Its a state of mind I drop into when injured. I'm not a runner with an injury/niggle. I'm just injured. Once I rid myself of the injury, I become a runner again.

    What I don't do (anymore) is attempt (and succeed) to fit in the odd race or session during the re-hab phase. Had enough of chronics.

    My neck of the woods is littered with the remains of injured guys who still think they are runners. Some of them have been carrying injuries for 20 years. 

     

    Ric. Wise wise words. There is at least 1 person on here who should print that post and stick it on their fridge. There's a difference between occasionally having a niggle and training long term with one.

    though in your next post I disagree slightly. I would rather be a runner for only 5 years and burn brightly than have have 30 years and not burn as bright. But it's all about motivations and we are all different so I'm sure there is no right or wrong opinion there image

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    RicF wrote (see)

    I'm prepared to trade in any activity that possibly reduces the speed of recovery.

    Its a state of mind I drop into when injured. I'm not a runner with an injury/niggle. I'm just injured. Once I rid myself of the injury, I become a runner again.

    What I don't do (anymore) is attempt (and succeed) to fit in the odd race or session during the re-hab phase. Had enough of chronics.

     

     

    agree with this Ric. Speedwork/tempo is always the first to go, then mileage reduced, and then ease back at easy pace.

    At the end of the day, being able to do a good mileage each week is the priority, doing races and doing good times is the icing on the cake.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Dean, I agree with your slight disagreement. I only wish that 5 years at the top would constitute 'fireworks'. 

    From my early 'more impressionable' years of running, the 'firework' runners only had about 18 months before they 'blew'.

    Unfortunately these are also the same runners who get asked for advice. The same runners who gambled big and for a short time won. Makes as much sense as putting all your money on a horse in the Grand National, as financial planning.

    What masks the real 'fall out' is the runners base ability. For instance, I used to beat Nigel Rackham (ranked 2nd V50 in Britain) I always beat him. He wasn't even a rival. Then he beat me. I've never beat him since or even got close. It sort of rankles, but the fact is, his base ability is 40 seconds/mile better than mine.

    Which means he can beat me at my best, even on an 'off' day.

    The only alternative is to take some big risks to get faster, the fear is how much risk? For many its all or nothing. I prefer to run without pain, so the compromise is racing slower.

    If I have one purpose in running its to convince others its not necessary to smash themselves to bits just to get faster. The reality is that most of us never get that far down the training line to have to.

    Oh yes, training.

    Four mile session which involved 21/ 30 second sprints up a hill, one every 1min 40seconds.

    Only on the last couple did I feel like I was beginning to struggle. That's the sign to stop. 

     

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    Ric - i understand that point of view, i guess i dont love just running like some of you do.  i love competing & challenging myself but that could be any sport. Dont get me wrong if i had to quit running tomorrow i would miss track sessions and chasing PBs but i wouldnt miss all the mileage out in the rain etc...  so you could probably guess i would chase Rackham in your shoesimage  Hell i even spoke with my coach about ways of me closing the gap on Whiteman (never gonna happen but doesnt mean i shouldnt try!)

    dachs - apologies i missed your 1500m the other night.  Excellent.  Get a 3k in!!!!

    been in london town for the last couple of days (managed a jog around hyde park with my wife) so today did a 4m tempo on a treadmill set to 1% incline.  pace was about 5.40.  for the first time ever on a tempo i found it no bother.  normally im digging in early on but it felt comfortable.  i guess the fast track sessions make 5.40 pace seem like a "jog" so looking fwd, once track is finishe,d to see if i can do any damage to a 10k. image

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Ric, of course there is more to running then just race performances. That's why my most uncomfortable moments are those rare occasions i'm limited to 20-30miles a week due to some new niggle.

    The 50+ mile weeks, like at the moment, even without speedwork or any ideas of progressing fitness , at least help you tick over and keep you sane.

    When i'm ticking ovre at full capacity, i can handle 65 or so mile weeks with a tempo and a speedwork session, all linked to pace zones. When i see the likes of Dachs and Johnas doing 3 sessions a week, and at harder and longer intensities i do marvel, as that'd have me properly laid out!

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Don't know what you mean Dean image

    The thing is though with training through niggles is that it is a judgement call taking two key things into account - will it make the problem worse and/or will it delay recovery? If the first, then clearly you are better off resting. If it is the second, then it is not so black and white. You then need to take into account the likely additional recovery time versus any potential training fitness loss and th pyschological impact of not running. I know  of others on here with similar injuries as me who have taken the rest (from running) route and the time to full recovery has been about the same.

    Besides, if you are running a fair amount in your late forties and don't suffer with various minor niggles then you are very lucky!

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    I said I would post my full training for the 5K.  It's a bit self-indulgent, but I guess that's the point of the training threads.  If anyone wants to pick stuff out of it, they're welcome.

    I was working to the principles that Dean had followed in his training, i.e. one session totalling 5K of volume at target 5K pace, and one session of shorter, faster reps.  In the event, I mixed up those shorter ones with track races and hill reps as well, so it was a bit of a range of stuff.  I also tried to hit 3 sessions of fast running per week, so often had a tempo or something else in addition.

    Where it differed a bit from Dean is that I tried to increase the length of the reps week-by-week until I was doing 1600 reps at target pace, in line with some stuff I found online.  I would not have been able to do these at the beginning!  The 5K pace reps were the only thing I had firmly planned out at the beginning, otherwise I was deciding on the other sessions week by week.

    As I've said before, I don't usually do 3 weekly sessions, and would only do so for a limited period.

    Beforehand

    • Marathon training culminating in marathon 14 weeks before 5K race
    • 1 week complete rest, 2 weeks building back with easy mileage
    • 2 disappointing 10K races 4 weeks and 5 weeks after marathon
    • 5K training commences 6 weeks after marathon

    Week 1

    • Total – 40 miles (on holiday so difficult to run)
    • Monday: 12 x 400 plus 1 x 200 @ target 5K pace (distances approximate, so done on feel)
    • Friday: 20 x 80m hill sprints

    Week 2

    • Total – 63 miles
    • Tuesday - 4 mile tempo at 5:41 pace
    • Thursday - 20 x 120m hill sprints
    • Saturday - 8 x 600 plus 1 x 200 @ target 5K pace with 300 recovery (total 5K in 15:33)

    Week 3

    • Total – 70 miles
    • Monday – Race: 1500 (4:27) and 5000 (16:21)
    • Wednesday – 6 x 800 plus 1 x 200 @ target 5K pace with 200 recovery (total 5K in 15:33)
    • Friday: - 5 mile tempo at 5:40 pace
    • Sunday -13 mile long run

    Week 4

    • Total – 67 miles
    • Monday – 5 x 1 mile reps (road) @ approximate 10K pace – average 5:28
    • Wednesday – 5 x 1000 @ target 5K pace with 300 recovery (total 5K in 15:32)
    • Friday – 18 x 200 @ mile pace with 200 recovery
    • Saturday – 13m long run

    Week 5

    • Total – 63 miles
    • Tuesday – 4 x 1200 plus 1 x 200 @ target 5K pace with 300 recovery (total 5K in 15:28)
    • 3 x 2m at between 10K and 10 mile pace (average 5:27) with 800m recovery
    • Saturday – 13m long run

    Week 6

    • Total – 66 miles
    • Monday – Race: 800 (2:13) and 3000 (9:24) and 4 x 200 relay
    • Wednesday – Race: 10K (33:32)
    • Saturday – Parkrun (16:19)
    • Sunday – 13m long run

    Week 7

    • Total – 59 miles
    • Monday – 20 x 200 @ mile pace with 200m recovery
    • Wednesday – 3 x 1600 plus 1 x 200 @ target 5K pace with 400 recovery (total 5K in 15:40)
    • Saturday – Parkrun (16:05)

    Week 8

    • Total – 61 miles
    • Monday (one week out) – 3 x 1600 plus 1 x 200 @ target 5K pace with 300 recovery (total 5K in 15:28)
    • Tuesday – 10 x 400 (average 70) with 400 recovery
    • Friday – 6 x 400 @ target 5K pace with 200 recovery (average 73 – too quick!)

    Week 9

    • Monday – 5K race (15:42)
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    SG, For me, running is a way of life, but a way of life that cannot last. For others, running is a way of life that they discover doesn't even start. Its not a commodity, you cannot buy or order it like a pair of shoes. Its lucky if you can do it at all.

    Top running performance is about hitting the top of a peak. Its like hitting the peak of a mountain, then what? stay there? try going higher?

    That's the mistake ambitious runners make. They hit achieve a peak result and mistake it for a base result and proceed to push on. Then fall off.

    Sure you can hit another peak, but you have to do it on another mountain. Which means you've got to descend the one you're on first.

    Better to descend under control rather than fall down.

    I've climbed three mountains. The first 1989-94, the second (the highest) 1996-99 and the third (lower) 2003. 

    I'm only hill walking now.

  • Dachs the program looks good. Was it a planned 8-9 week build up or was that what was in between the starting point and "that" race! 

    I have a few questions for thought though if you don't mind?

    The mileage inbetween the sessions (day to day) doubles? singles? Obviously you built up length of reps and were running them fast, as you said you wouldn't have been able to do that at the start.. 

    But now would you consider going back down (length) for 4-6 weeks and shortening the reps going for some speed then coming back up again 4-6 weeks with increasing the length again? Would that theory even work??

     

     

    Pain is weakness leaving the body
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Dachs, would normally be all over that training plan, but it'll be bound to make my hamstring twitch so will have to pass this time!

    Bus, i've probably had about 2 days a year for 3-4 years where ive had to miss a running day. The much more usual thing is the "can comfortably run through" niggle, but one where you have to reign in the faster stuff. So a lot of time it can appear you're "Injured" but a more accurate description is "not racefit" or not in a position where you can do training that'll progress you.

    Yep Ric, first reaction on hitting a new peak is to presume it's the new current level, and that the thing to do is immediately press on. Instead, you find you need to re-gather, and come again. I was very obviously starting the "come again" period.

    One session that always stands out to me of where in the cycle you are is the 45mins alternating between MP and HMP. I've finished that utterly monstered down on my haunches before, and I've finished it fairly comfortable. I've been nearer the former recently, whereas for example Lit currently is nearer the latter.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    ps im discovering what a mission it'll be to loosen these hamstrings.

    From cold i can get to lower shins on the "touch your toes" stretch. After 5 or so of the deep 30sec "Hurdle" stretches i can touch the floor. But then after going cold again it's back to the more limited range.

    I expect it's just a very slow process, not helped by sitting all day, so doing some other stretches at the desk and walking about a bit more will help. All the meantime each run gradually getting less tight! Which has massively imrpoved over the last 2months anyway.

    I think if you're waiting for a run to finish so you can get stretching , that's a sure fire sign all is not ideal!

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    dachs - how come you didnt get 15.33 on race day!  sloppy racing image 

    comparing our 5k training plans - your weekly mileage was a lot higher than mine and your tempos much faster than me and much more often. though if i was to target a 5k race again i would defn do more , faster tempos than last time.    Looks like track sessions  we did at a similar pace as i was aiming for 15.30.   im not suprised looking at that plan that most of your races came out a bit flat.  some hefty miles but i guess your marathon experience would make you more used to them than me.

    How did you find the hill sprints helped compared to hitting out say 200m reps?  did you feel like you got more benefit?  (hill sprints are on a list with tempos as a session i rarely do but know i should!!)

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