Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • My legs are mashed.  I made the mistake of doing a track session on them last night. Silly me.

  • Back from the hospital but no running or exerting myself for the rest of the day. 

    I was injected with some sort of dye which had the effect of making my insides feel heated up. Quite pleasant really, I was feeling a bit cold.

    Knee seemed almost fixed during a jog about the house. Bearing in mind the XC is on Saturday, its getting a bit late to start running miles in preparation.

    I saw (heard about once I'd finished) a guy win a XC race having not run a yard in the previous two weeks but for a one mile jog and strides the previous evening.

    So it can be done.

    But not by me.

     

  • When they said no running or exerting yourself it may have covered jogging round the house. Unless you are a total obsessed streaker like Ron Hill I suggest you stop with the jogging today Ric and stick your feet up. And I don't mean get a bottle of wine out image

  • RicF wrote (see)

    Back from the hospital but no running or exerting myself for the rest of the day. 

    I was injected with some sort of dye which had the effect of making my insides feel heated up. Quite pleasant really, I was feeling a bit cold. Knee seemed almost fixed during a jog about the house. Bearing in mind the XC is on Saturday, its getting a bit late to start running miles in preparation. I saw (heard about once I'd finished) a guy win a XC race having not run a yard in the previous two weeks but for a one mile jog and strides the previous evening. So it can be done. But not by me Probably done by someone really good! I would nearly be back to square 1 after 2 weeks off, not joking! Know what Dachs was on about - I set off on my National 6 stage leg with a guy who looked a bit older. Tried to hang on and failed badly. When spectators started shouting 'Go on Tim!' I realised it was Tim Hartley, international vets xc runner. Doh image   I think I replied wrongly. something went wrong with the quote!

     

  • Max, my jogging was 5 minutes worth at seven this morning. Not much more than going up and down on my toes a few times and some knee lifts. Once I'd established I wasn't hurting anywhere, I stopped.

    Quit while you're ahead I reckon.image

    But now that you've mentioned wineimage, I was told to drink plenty (didn't say what of) to flush out the dye. image

    Simon, I get the quote to work by saving it first. Typing in my post and then inserting it (the quote) afterwards.

  • Ric, 2weeks of nothing and winning a race doesn't surprise me. 6months maybe.

    Dachs, why on earth would you follow a fast half marathon with a track session 3 days later? That's just madness.

    I just followed some medium hard am tempo with a nice easy 4miler. That's more like it. I will mostly be eating the rest of today.

  • Ric - if you ran a super quick 10k once based on a series of indoor jogs and walking upstairs whilst eating a tin of Quality Street whilst drinking Stella I really don't want to know as it may make me stop training all together!!!!

  • Stevie G wrote (see)

    Dachs, why on earth would you follow a fast half marathon with a track session 3 days later? That's just madness.

    Because running fast is fun.

  • not 3 days after a half marathon it isn't.

    Still, our boy Stevie S holds the maddest combo. Wasn't it a race then 200m reps the next day or something?

     

  • I think running slowly is fun. image

  • Doesn't Salazar get Farah and Rupp to do post race sessions, or sessions back to back?

    Given that the dreaded 'DOMS' is supposed to take two days to take effect, should we get two sessions/races in in quick succession? Perhaps only if they are shorter I suppose. I did my best ever Stevenage relay leg (3k) a day after the Bedford 5k this year, much to my suprise...

    I'm toying with training tuesday and wednesday and easing off a bit before the saturday xc races this season, rather than training Thursday. Might see what happens...

  • Max, Quality Street, hmm. Used to get as kids a huge tin of those for Christmas. Lasted around three days except for the repulsive creams.

    Stella, yep, already dealt with.

    Alas my fastest 10k's came off the back of a temporary loss of appetite and weight.

    Read in 'Winning without Drugs' that after distance races, the muscles are particularly prone to injury for 48 hours. 

    Seems they are sort of cooked which makes them rather soft. Running at this stage can seem easy because of this.

    The true condition of the muscles is, yes, 48 hours after the race. To avoid potential problems after races, just put a line through the next two days ambition.

     

  • Simon, I can understand a 5k/3k combo back to back, but not a half and session, even 3 days on.

    I found out the hard way how non ideal it is, when doing a Dachs-esque double under my old club's championship years back. Half marathon on the sunday, 5k Tuesday night. As a hilly half, I had severe DOMS, and spent most of the Monday and Tuesday seriously deep heating up. Just about got to the start line, and surprisingly did a time close to normal.

    Out of my week's runs, it's the Wednesday medium long run that can often be the hardest to quantify in the brain. You get right up for the 2 hard sessions and the long run, and the short ones are gone in a flash. But the Wed run almost feels like an after the lord majors show job. But very necessary

  • Simon - I read an article about the purpose behind what Galen Rupp did after the 2 mile American record (could be wrong on that)



    But he did that then 5 x 1 mile I think.. Was on FLOTRACK but can't remember exactly what was said - I don't think anyone advocates 2 hard days in a row but AM / PM has been mentioned - I also read about someone (name escapes me) who did 2 tempos in a day as training. Marathon runner...



    Having said that given their circumstances they are highly conditioned and do a lot of recovery work / rest inbetween..



    I'm sure most of us could put 100% into a session then given an "elite" makeover for the rest of the day with the crazy leg sleeping bag things, made to sleep etc then run near 100% hard session the next day.. We did debate on something similar a while ago.



    I did read Chris Froome also used to get carried between the car / hotel after races for some ridiculous marginal gains! Story probably exaggerated though as the truth is he probably couldn't walk as he fucked his legs on the alps
  • Simon Coombes 2 wrote (see)

    Given that the dreaded 'DOMS' is supposed to take two days to take effect, .

    Someone should have told my quads that on Monday after pelting down the Glasgow hills on Sunday, as I don't think they got the memo.

  • Oh my other input will be from my mate who I helped the study with ages ago.. He said ages ago, after targeting to peak or running an A race should enter a Maintenence phase for 3-4 weeks before embarking on next training cycle - I think what you did Dachs won't really help recovery. Can't comment about fitness as obviously 1 session doesn't make a difference but we don't fully know what affect it'll have fitness wise - could be a huge boost in strength if you then recover well after that so for 5 days, body could also well go into relax mode of you ease off straight away from a race and didn't do the session.



    Just speculating now - loads of hypotheticals
  • True..thanks for all the comments, yes definitely only over the shorter distances - I might try the Tues/weds combo and see what happens, I suppose to perhaps give a little more rest before a saturday race (albeit with steady running to and from work thurs/friday, total 5 miles).

    Literatin - yes thinking back, DOMS hit before the end of my marathon. I think we've all had that day after the race feeling thinking 'actually my legs feel ok'...only to get out of bed the following day and....ah!

  • Simon, I think I'd vaguely seen your sort of level elsewhere on the forum, but had a quick sifty through PO10

    Very interesting that you first hit the times you're doing now around 10 years ago, but are pretty much equalling them and getting pbs now.

    Presume it's more a case of you favour short stuff and don't do many half/marathons ?Rather than either 1) the ones you do not being UKA, and 2) having a colossal drop off from short to long!

    your lower stuff is well ahead of me, but your half is a sprinking of seconds ahead only. (Unless obviously it was some monster course!)

  • Dachs wrote (see)

    It's down to what you're training for more than anything else though.  Dean's focussed on 800/1500, and whilst there are those who advocate high mileage for middle distance, it's nowhere near as important as for half marathons and up.  Clearly Dean has run a pretty good half off that training, but I can't imagine he wouldn't be faster over that distance if he upped the miles.

    Perhaps but My 10k and half PB were set off 40m ave weeks. I doubt many here do so few miles. The coin goes both ways, could I do better if I did more miles OR is it because of lower mileage that I can get some decent quality session in. 

    Im assuming simon Coombes is the same simon Coombes I have had to keep an eye on in the 1500m rankings All summer?  hope so, could do with more chaps who race on the track On this thread.image

  • It's not DOMS if it hits straight away - it's just sore muscles!  The clue is in the "Delayed Onset" bit!

    Dachs - it's a bit like not stretching - you can get away with it, and when as fit as you are, most of the time but it's a bit like Russian Roulette!

    Scott - re Cooray: indeed! problem is, he's Sri Lankan, and they don't have the same support for their athletes, so he has to make do with what he can get.

    Bike ride home was as bad as feared - very slow! Not helped by a shite day at work with being forced to have far too early a lunch with no chance to re-fuel or re-hydrate properly in the afternoon before dashing back for a school open evening. Leg has also been hurting quite a lot the past two days - quite depressing really....

     

  • Sheeesh, I can't keep tabs on here anymore! Work takes all my time!

    Sorry it's late but Dachs, an epic report and what time! You need to get a 10K done quick, I've entered the Leeds Abbey dash this week. To break top 200 you need 34:28 image Crazy race. Then a cheeky track session 3 days after, have you been reading my training manual! Amazing stuff!

    Part way through a good week myself, 9 Monday, big 28min tempo session Tuesday, then 10.5 yesterday. Rest today, then an XC race Saturday.

    SG... enter a race! image

     

  • there was me thinking that parkrun a few weeks back ha satisfied the thread's readership image

    Duff game at Wembley tonight. I think I prefer games where both teams at least pretend to have any ambition at all!

  • Stevie G wrote (see)

    Simon, I think I'd vaguely seen your sort of level elsewhere on the forum, but had a quick sifty through PO10

    Very interesting that you first hit the times you're doing now around 10 years ago, but are pretty much equalling them and getting pbs now. Presume it's more a case of you favour short stuff and don't do many half/marathons ?Rather than either 1) the ones you do not being UKA, and 2) having a colossal drop off from short to long! your lower stuff is well ahead of me, but your half is a sprinking of seconds ahead only. (Unless obviously it was some monster course!)

    Hi Stevie - My PB for half is 74.14 at Stevenage, I think it may not be UKA, but yes, I prefer the shorter stuff, 5k road/track is my favourite. About 2/3 years ago I started running the 2.2 miles from my house to the station and then the little bit the other end in London...and back, every day. I now do an extra 4 miles in both direction three days a week, all with a rucksack, so it can be 12 miles a day, which can help get the weekly count up to about 60/70 quite easily with a long sunday run, and is less time consuming.

    So thats basically what has helped the improvement..more miles, less weight, better times. It has to be really, as the sessions are more or less similar. So as Steve Way's hashtag is #dontbeshit..mine would be #runeverywhere image

  • So running 2.2x miles to work does count for something image



    Simon - Good mileage + built around doubles is my aim now. Doubles is what creates strength. Stripping the schedule back and running shorter and more often then building on the doubles once I have got used to constant sessions again.. I think running 60mpw on doubles is easier than 60m on singles? As long as you allow body to rest correctly inbetween. I did find that every day I was facing at least 8m which would be around 60 minutes once I got shoes in and got them off when home. My coach although advised me to increase mileage he did say aim to build upto 10-12m per day over doubles and don't care how so 8/4 6/6 5/5 - much better time wise.. Luckily I live close to work and have a bike so will probably start utilising combo of bike in / run home / run in / bike home next day then building in doubles ..



    Anyway! Keep going off about potential plans and should wait! To many ideas lol



    I also read about overloading a LSR every so often and cutting down increasing speed on last few miles - so my staple will be 12-14m for example but every 4th run 16.. Thoughts?
  • scott i had read a half mara plan that had tempo ish paces for 4 of the miles scattered randomly in a LSR. but to compensate you could run some of the other miles below the normal LSR pace.

    on other news i did a gym session on core, plyometrics and weights at lunch. 

    i learnt 2 things, one was i definately need to do this type of training more if im to hit the targets my coach and training partners think im capable of over 800m.  The second is i am an embarrassment...i have no balance, core or arm strength.  Lots of room for improvement.  60 secs for a plank is a lot right? image

  • The latent power of many athletes is often underestimated. An international runner of my acquaintance could do a 4 minute mile/23 minute, 5 miles. And weighed about 8 stone.

    Thin as a stick, any ideas of his lack of strength were dispelled one evening when in a moment of 'horse play' he snatched an armchair off the ground as though it weighed no more than a similar sized piece of polystyrene. 

    Just watch professional footballers doing backflips after scoring a goal. That's sheer power at work.

  • i dont disagree Ric in the need for athletes to have power but thinking back to the superstars olympian special a few xmas's back Mo's strength was way lower than everyone else no there. in comparison he was a bit weedy if i remember correctly.  Though i suppose his power is to propel his 2stone frame around a 5k rather than doing a job lot of dips and squats on a 1970's revival tv programme

  • Dean from your picture you look strong to be honest although that means littleC having done a ton of sports combined with my running in my younger days and karate for years and being fairly toned I thought my core was good. Clearly very wrong in both actual testing back at the UNI and from physio checks..



    We chatted about plank before - Ric holding a solid time - but I'd bet money you'd be stronger elsewhere and no disrespect but quicker, so all relative, I built up to do 10 minutes but then what did that mean or do for me I don't know? I wouldn't say I have good arm strength, I find you can lose strength very easily too. I'll find out even more so soon



    A million % core work helps though, going to start back up this coming week I think with reducing my mileage rebuilding things. My balance has always been poor with my ear troubles
  • of all the stuff i have been given to do i found the weighted russian twists the best.  i can feel it burning straight away and can imagine it will help controlling my posture/frame in the final 200m of a 800m

    i cant imagine a plank for 10mins, im shaking badly at 1 minute and to be honest even if i could do it 10mins is probably feels too long a time/rep to get the benefit you want from it for this sport.  probably would look at using weights or some form of resistance to make the rep hard but shorter.

  • Yes Dean, I remember that 'Superstars'. I could hardly believe how weak Farah appeared to be.

    My weakness has always been a lack of inherent elastic bounce within my muscles. Hardly any at all, its nearly all dead straight push.

    On a 5000m track race I did once manage a first lap in 71 seconds floating along on my toes, and in the middle of a set of 12 x 74/75 second 400m's I killed an effortless  66 second lap out of nowhere. But that's it. The supply of bounce is cut off and I'm flat footed the rest of the way.

    One place where I operate is on a bike. Never met any runner I couldn't blow clean off my rear wheel, if they tried cycling. My average speed on training rides were 20mph plus regardless of distance. So I have strength of a sort, but not the elastic bounce required as a runner. Farah has shed loads of that bounce.

    I have a slow sort of endurance strength, which caves in very quickly if I over do the power. In numbers, the sort of speed I need for an 800m I can only hold for 200m before blowing up totally. I mean stop!

    Biggest racing nightmare I have is the so called 'light hearted' relays held immediately after the 5 mile/10k Summer league races. They are only around 300m but I get wiped out after 30 seconds despite being slower than all the other runners anyway. Runners who I have done for a minute a mile in the longer event.

    Bloody embarrassing. I refuse to take part now. I used to make some excuse. Now before the league commences, I tell the team manager, ' Sorry Dave, but if you ask me to run the relay, don't be offended if I say piss off'. 

     

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