Moraghan Training - Stevie G



  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    You have to wear trousers to orienteer Dachs - good enough reason not to in my book :-)
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    Reg - fancy a 380M/600k Audax? Guy Woollett has just posted his Strava upload of one from Saturday! 25 hours of cycling - mind boggling!
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    No Bus, I don't.
  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2018
    Sg - my last post should have congratulated you on the win...but didn't seem to make the edit...not sure what happened but great win. 

    after a shit race last week and contemplating of retirement I am  glad to report normal service has resumed.... my first session towards Malaga.  4*200 (33,34, 29,30) , 800  (2.15)  , 600 (1.36)  400 (60), 300 (43) , 200 (27).  Came out on target,  Really happy about this as it was really windy.
  • Simon Coombes 2Simon Coombes 2 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2018

    Retirement? Just because you got beaten by a 50 year old? You soppy tart :) Happens to the best of us (Andy Leach at the Brum 10k for me!)

    Great return to normal service though - as bloody usual (only use 'bloody' now as you in my age group) :) There is an issue here that will scupper me eventually - don't think I can do a 27 for a 200 now, especially not at the end of a rep session.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    edited June 2018
    Contemplating retirement  :D :D
    Obvs in jest, but i suppose unlike a lot of us, you probably wouldn't be happy just gaining enjoyment from a race in a different setting, or some random distance bootleg race somewhere? One for another year though no doubt.

    Love those "loosener" first two 200s before the proper stuff began!

    I did listen to Dachs tips on the 5k, but I also had a look through the old training log, and fancied a different session. One of these V02 type affairs where you're working at a decent lick already then step it up.

    Therefore, 4x1200 off 2mins.

    Two options, matching the past and say a 2 sec step up each lap, or what I ended up doing, first 2 laps similar, or perhaps 1 sec quicker 2nd lap, then a big last lap.

    came out


    Felt warm after that one!

    A few options next time
    1. 6x800s, with 1st lap 1.20, second lap hard
    2. same as today, starting harder
    3. 3x1600s with 3 laps 1.23/1.22, hard last lap
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    Nice session Dean.

    SG, I am not experienced in track sessions but I'd be interested to know whether the experienced track runners here thought they were a little soft?

    Went for a run at lunch yesterday with another chap from my new office/new job. He's a 1:45 HM runner and does about 10 miles a week but does all his runs about 7m/mi. It was nice to have company and he kept a good pace but I had to do most the talking!
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Depends how you look at it.
    If i'm doing straight 400s, 12 would probably come out 1.15, 8 would come out 1.12
    800s, probably 2.40 and down
    However, we all know it's easier to hold quicker paces for shorter stuff, and none of us hold these times for 5k in reality.

    5k race the other week, my 2nd best, 16.56
    For maths, call that 5.28 a mile pace, that's around 1.22 lapping

    Therefore, close to doing 800s at my 5k achieved pace, and then layering a 1.15 (which in reality i'd probably struggle to hold for 3k in a race) on top.

    Seems fairly on point to me?

    More in keeping with the Moz run at actual pace you can hold in a race style of session, rather than the fancy way quicker, that's good for the ego type I suppose. 
    Like Ric once said, we smash some reps out super fast that we don't have a hope of holding in a race, and why do we do that?

    Interested in the big boys thoughts though.

    LOLZ at the 7min miling guy! Bet he would refuse to believe that he'd improve by slowing but down and doing more too!
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    edited June 2018
    On another note, got in touch with the big man whose name this thread holds, and he confirmed I should look at re-basing the zones I use - which I haven't touched in years, since the peak pbs.
    While I haven't failed to hit a zone as such, and for shorter stuff get way under what the 5k zone would be, it's when you come to progress the straight TMP stuff through HMP and tempo it'd probably come to light.

    Will do that after the last 5k this summer, perhaps mid Aug with a view to longer distance racing. 
  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭
    my thoughts.... i wouldnt do the session you did SG unless i was looking to stimulate a change in pace in a race or kick finish.    To your point about why do 200s at super fast pace as you wouldnt do that in a race...same applies to this session.  what race would you do 800 relaxed 400 lift followed by 800 relaxed  400 lift etc etc...   you would run more stable paced.  the session has merits but i wouldnt do it very often.  IMO you are better hitting 5k goal pace and holding it consistently over the reps.  to break the repetitive nature of it you vary the rep length, total volume or recovery.

    when i first joined this thread i was repeatedly told i was running my 200/300/400 too fast.  of course it has proved i have a bias towards the short stuff but the reason i did them at "too fast a pace for my 10k pb" was if my 400s are fast then 5k pace at a slower pace wont feel too taxing (assuming i got my endurance sessions in) any increase in pace in a race might feel more comfortable.     
    plus and maybe the main reason is if you always run a similar pace then that becomes the norm.  Goosing some lightning 300s out on a tuesday is a completely diff session to 5*5mins at 5k pace.   you work diff muscles etc...  keeps the body improving/holding up.    the problem is when someone has done 9months of 5*5mins sessions and then tries a 300 lightning session they get injured and think its the short speed stuff thats to blame...its not its the fact you didnt build upto the right pace. 
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Always up for hearing other thoughts, as obviously I used to just run the prescribed sessions and wasn't really up for taking thoughts on board, as I had a top man writing it, and generally the sessions put me in a good place. Now i'm putting it together, i'm more than happy to take stuff on board.

    I take your point at how you wouldn't step up in a race, but i wouldn't quite say the first 800 was relaxed, as that's still my 5k current pace. Moz was big on reps at current fitness.  I find it all too easy to drop off in a race, so this sort of session was planned to push on hard when feeling it a bit.

    So instead of 6x800 at current 5k pace, which i would say is soft, as i'd generally look to do the reps at 1.20 each lap at least (not 1.22-1.23), the hard fast lap elevated the effort level.

    However, I will probably will drop it back to the schedule and straight consistent reps at a smooth pace now.

    Will probably re-start the schedule, as it really does mix the progression Dachs suggested in distance, along with ramps in intensity.
    I may drop the two 200 sessions out though, as even when i'll I've smashed those off!
    I'll have a look tonight.

    Will probably on Friday do the 8x600, 2x400, 2x200 session at the "5k zone", which I will treat as 1.20 (or slightly quicker), rather than actual 5k)

    Unless there's any more thoughts against that?
  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭
    after a 6*800 why not do 4*150 at fast pace if you want to stimulate a pick up of pace on tired legs.
    Also isnt your session for friday just more of the same as last nights...same pace (1.20 lap), similar volume.  unless you do them 600 at 3k pace
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    I didn't put any serious though into it, I just looked at it and thought, I could do that session without too much bother and we're about the same over 5k. With your extra mileage, I was thinking maybe you could handle more. 
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Today was a bit of a random pick from a past year, and remember 1.22/1.23 first 800.

    Friday would be starting a new block with 1.20 the slowest pace per lap.

    Reg it's not about obliterating yourself :)
    You've also just put down a 1643 to my 1656 remember too.
    Id probably do some of the shorter reps faster than you would but aside from that wouldn't necessarily be doing much you would think you couldn't match. You have the better form in shorter stuff
  • ML84ML84 ✭✭✭
    What about doing some Deeks Quarters SG? Basically 8 x 400 with a 200 float. Say 77/78 for the 400s then 45 secs for the 200. Really bites later on. 
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    I certainly agree with SG on 'not obliterating' oneself during speedwork.
     On reflection, I hold entirely on 'not obliterating' oneself, as a matter of course.

    That in mind, I can report that I'm just back from the fifth double figure outing in eight days.

    Nailed a KOM Strava segment along the way, up a hill that a few weeks back I had to stop on for a rest on more than one occasion, and at a slower pace too.

    Is Magnesium Citrate a form of EPO?
  •   If it is Ric...I'm on it. PM the details of your dealer :D
  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭
    edited June 2018
    to be fair Reg didnt say do a session to "obliterate yourself"  just that SG session looked like something he could complete without much bother.

    Though isnt the 1980s approach to running push yourself often and hard.  doing sessions that leave you on the floor gasping are key to improvement.  you have to push against the barriers every now and again.  not every week imo as you end up injured/knackered but every now and again.  i had a few sessions that left me on the floor in the build up to madrid.  sometimes you need to push to improve otherwise you stay around the same level for ever.

    Ric - Good to see you moving better now, like Simon think i might have to get a go on those magnesium tablets :)
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    Cheers Dean, that is what I was getting at. Training doesn't improve you, recovering does. So you have to cause some damage to get faster, my casual observation, was that perhaps there was a little comfort zone in there. Whereas I feel to improve, when you've been consistently doing similar volumes for a couple of years, you need to put in a few sessions that scare you a little bit. If that's where these sessions sit, then my gut feel was wrong.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    edited June 2018

    Not sure about "damage" as such, but take your general point.

    That'll teach me for trying a different sort of session :)

    Hopefully doing my 2nd fastest ever 5k means something is going right, but I'll do my best to improve that this summer.

    I felt pretty sharp last summer with that little schedule I do, and haven't quite done it justice this year, so will re-start that. It graduates distance over weeks as per Dachs tip, so I'll see how that works out. Will do my best to get under that pb this summer.

    In other news, relegated to the B team for the Runnymede relay which is a shame, as without counting chickens the A team will always be in the top 3 shield mix.  Only 3 senior men in the 6 allowed. Next year our top 2 will be 40, so selection eases a bit, but it's all on who's around.

    And it seems we're in for Endure 24, £72.10 each wanted by the captain! It's on! Just need to be fit, ready and willing by June!

  • £72 quid each? f**k that for a laugh ;)

    Yes the sessions you hate are the key aren't they. Bit of a shame that many of the less committed who moan about these kind of sessions don't do them and don't fulfil their potential. Not doing a full session tonight as I've got 8&15 on Saturday in the SAL at Tooting Bec.

    Ric. Don't let Dean have any until later in the Monday 17th September..fine from that date yeah ;)

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    I think I might say that my discovery of the benefits of Magnesium Citrate may be the biggest contribution to running I'm ever likely to make.

    It's ridiculous. It's only a food supplement from a health food shop. How can something like that have such an effect?

    It'll be interesting to see if it helps anyone else. I'll be especially interested how Simon gets on with the stuff as alcohol is one way to deplete one's reserves, along with physical effort, stress...

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    What do you reckon it's doing then Ric? Might try some myself!

    SG's sessions look pretty sharp to me, for what it's worth! Clearly something is working at the moment, but comments and challenging training and sessions is what we are here for!

    Reg - I run occasionally with work colleagues and its always a good bit of social. 1:45 half of 10 miles a week shows a lot of potential for swift improvement - does he cycle too?

    Odd week to get the running in this week, as away at the weekend and probably doing BP on Monday. So, double xc tuesday, 5 miles along the canal with 4 at tempo effort at lunch yesterday, followed by 10 covering the same route today, with first 3 as progression to MP, then 7 at MP (effort). Double again tomorrow, so expecting sore legs by close of play!
  • Good run of sessions there Bus! That will get you into shape! Ric - I might have a go with the Magnesium for a laugh, but doubt it will help tbh. I don't actually drink 'that' much tbh - nothing last weekend, then  couple last night, my issue is lack of recovery/sleep.

    So session was (600/400/300/200) x 5, with a couple of newbies who got a bit of a shock first time. I missed out the 300 because of racing tomorrow - worked out well with a decent gap either side of the 200's. About 60 secs between reps, came  out mainly 1.46/68/31 - pretty hard and blowy up the home straight.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    edited June 2018
    Love that Ric is supplementing up :)
    Inviting some soreness there Bus ;)

    Unusual session there Simon, keeps it fresh though.

    Back to a solid 5k session then today.
    8x600, 2x400, 2x200, off 90,60,30

    1.18 lapping the target, so 1.57 for the 600s.

    Pleased to see them come out pretty decently

    Average 1.55, with a good bit of rhythm reps 3 to 6.

    1.17,1.15 400s,
    35 for the 200s.

    Felt better than the last time I did this one.
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    Nice session there SG, that's a bit more than those original sessions you suggested  ;) and I could see myself falling short of that. Especially as I have just played work football two evenings running. My back is a mess as are my ankles, lower shins and lots of other small muscles that I clearly don't use kicking a Peppa Pig football around the garden.

    Bus, I suggested to the work guy that he could easily go under 1:30 with 25-30 mpw for a few months. Not sure if he's interested though. I suspect he did a little bit more for his 1:45 than 1-2 runs a week though. We're going out again at lunch, although I am not that great at walking right now.

    Nice work as ever SC.

    Not done much this week, new job has certainly disrupted my progress.

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    Life does get in the way sometimes Reg - I'm always amazed at how much we actually manage to ignore and crack on with the running :smile:

    SG/Simon - both those sessions leave me feeling in awe! 

    Legs were OK today as it happened - very easy double and a few nurofen did the trick :smile:

    Got my weekends mixed up - its next weekend I'm away, but prospective uni open day (for daughter, not me!) and BP Monday means only a short one over the weekend sometime.
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    I think I should mention, that I've tried a variety of supplements in the past, and, without exception, they were not worth the packaging they came in.

    Absolutely no difference whatsoever.

    The magnesium does appear to do something, so I thought worth the mention.

    University then Bus. What subject is your daughter going for? 

    Btw. Meet the new avatar. More like me in how I approach things.
  • I'm liking the sound of these magnesium supplements more and more, Ric!

    Good sessions by SG and SC. Hope the race went well SC.

    Tonight was the Sticker 5 mile for me, my first race since January! I should really make more of an effort to race more, as it will probably help to keep the training and motivation in check.
    Past couple of easy runs I'd managed to shift the congestion with some over-the-counter Sudafed, which was perfect timing for the race. What wasn't perfect was the addition of strides to each run, trying to pep the legs up a bit and instead giving me some DOMS in the quads!

    I would regale a long report about the race and where it went, but I had no clue as I was running when in the lanes, and the map doesn't help either :D 
    The course is a classic case of Cornish undulations - featuring a decent climb over the second half-mile, largely downhill for the next two miles, before a near 1.5 mile long climb, and then undulating for the final mile. 
    The weather was warm, warmer than I had hoped at about 20°C, but there was a slight breeze which helped a bit.
    Mile 1 came through as 6:22, a bit too fast, but the hill had sorted the sub-6 pace I had during the first half-mile. Next mile was 6:05 and completely downhill, I was trying to coast down and make sure I was keeping something for the hills to come, but could feel the quads starting to complain a bit. Mile 3 was 6:34 and sees a small climb, and a high-hedged, dusty lane which felt like a furnace as we were running westward with the sun in our faces and I was choking on a combination of midges and the dust kicked up by runners in front. This is where the fun ends, and my lack of fitness really showed. I reached 5 km in 19:44, which was one of my targets - sub-20 at this point, and then struggle on. And struggle I did. The climb back towards the start killed me, but also had it's toll on other runners, as I only got passed twice. Miles 4 and 5 came out as 7:24 and 7:22 - a real case of just putting one foot in front of the other and getting it done. Obligatory sprint finish over the last 400m and nearly took a scalp - worked hard, as HR hit 210 at this point, what I've considered max!
    Finished in 33:35, and in 43rd place. Not all bad considering it's very much a down then up race, and the weather. Would have much preferred something between 32 and 33, but it's something to work on!
  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    Very strong sessions SG, Bus and Simon. Good to see you back racing Matt H and, as you say, a good base to build on. 

    Ric; intrigued by the magnesium find. Why and what difference is it making time wise? 

    Decided to give myself a different weekend/early next week target of 2 sub 18'30 5ks. Obv needs fast courses and Battersea on Monday the choice for the 2nd. Today went back to Rickmansworth which is a trek for me but a super fast course and benefits from a generous definition of 5k? (about 4.92 I reckon, sound familiar SG!). Anyway had a sub par run there a couple of months ago and only did 19'17 when struggling with calf and hip injuries and knew I was capable of better. Attacked it from the start today with a 3'31 1st k and then held around 3'45 to end up 18'25 for 5th of 447 and >84% WAVA. Fastest pr for ages and one half of the double done. Will be very hard to do 18'30 at BP over full 5k though even on that form. Also have to overcome the negative vibes of 2 crappy races on my only 2 BP visits last year (including a DNF in the 2nd). As you say Bus; not that long ago we were sub 18 at BP but I for one have next to no chance of that now. 
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