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Moraghan Training - Stevie G
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A 3:10 would be an exceptional marathon. I look forward to tracking it!
As to whether there are any side effects to jumping in a race, well there are a couple of positive aspects for me really - I can be too casual when on my own, especially when interrupted by traffic and pavement obstacles, so getting in a race allows me to focus on getting the effort up to the right level uninterrupted and with the added provision of safety. Same as you for the track, really, but with all the added features of a non-smooth surface and situational awareness requirements. I can also treat it properly as a session and race rehearse - which means proper easy running discipline in the days before. The output from that is much more realistic when it comes to planning for an actual (road) race too.
I don't generally get adrenalised by races when I've earmarked them as a session. However I do get adrenalised by races that are likely to be a to-the-death-effort - I was shaking in the drive to the marathon start on Sunday !
All have their pros and cons.
Track tends to come out slightly quicker than the other two. But we're not talking huge differences.
You talk about "realistic" paces..do you not think the threshold pace ive been using is realistic for my upcoming race?
I have a club colleague who is coached by Full Potential. His schedule has two weekly threshold sessions which he runs by pace. We both did a half recently and he was expecting big improvements - they didn't materialise - and we were having an inquest on the drive back afterwards and I think the nub of it was his threshold interval sessions were really more being performed closer to his 10k ability and he was running himself into the ground.
So while your efforts seem to come out about right from my perspective, which is slightly below your current level, threshold runs are a tricky area for people to judge well in general I think.
Moz im pretty sure drew upon daniels as does johnas but in different ways.
Moz had me continually working the theoretical mp zone. Similar runs to today but they developed to add hmp bits then tempo bits and ended with straight reps at hmp
This block had me starting how that ended. Starting with the old peaking sessions as hmp seems to be pretty much bang on threshold.
The 4x2mile session felt strong. I wouldn't and didn't do sessions like that in the past.
It feels new and exciting and it has got me in two minds about the whole club scene versus soldier of fortune solo style again i must admit.
Your pal must have known he was working very hard. As johnas said if it feels too hard it probably is.
My threshold was created off the vdot that the 1656 5k gave.
Your pal has either been given too optimistic a zone or has simply overdone it.
In fairness ive probably put some 548-550 in rather than 552 but it's felt manageAble and consistent
the surface doesn't change that. I agree track is probably easier to hold the target pace but that's due to no obstructions, pan flat and the ability to get an accurate reading every 200 or 400m to see if you are on pace or not. The reason roads are harder is because you rarely get those 3 situations so in fact holding the target pace is actually over effort but as muddy correctly says more realistic to a road race as it is similar conditions.
good relaying Dachs and Simon. We are deciding if we will bother with the nationals (the team has lots of races coming up) but if we do I will see you there.
very tidy marathon muddy! Nice
All fine and good, but once you are there, you are saying that the event is a bit crap? The swim sounds OK but the Kona bike ride seems to be dogged by high winds and so you get the infamous "I'm not really drafting" debate but images such as below
and then you are saying the marathon is also hot and so slow.
To be frank, why doesn't everyone say "fuck this for a game of soldiers" and change it? Yes, who doesn't want to go to Hawaii but the same applies to many other places and there are plenty of places in October where the racing conditions are far better.
It's where it all started so it will never change unless it starts to lose appeal to the competitors. I mean this isn't even a governing body, it's a brand of race but is uniquely dominant in the market to the extent that the ITU (official triathlon body) races are much less competitive.
Ironman is like the PDC world champs on Sky and ITU is the BBC darts at Frimley Green. Drafting is an issue at Kona, it doesn't help that there are no technical sections and the spread of the swim times isn't as large as at other lower standard races.
The only way to reduce the drafting would be a staggered start or fewer competitors.
Cracking marathon time Muddy!
Feeling rather lergied up today. Combined with a sore back, dodgy hip and a mild ankle sparing I'm feeling rather sorry for myself today
I'd add that doing tempos in a race must be easier than solo track tempos.
It's an effort to slog yourself around a track on your own early morn. It has to be easier when everyone round you is racing and perceived effort definitely goes down.
Phil -you could say buzzkill type stuff about London marathon - too crowded, too much non serious charity gub, but you're missing the epic iconic nature of the race.
i would lean towards muddys comment about doing them in a race with the right attitude means you are used to being in race and can control adrenaline better. Similar discussion to a few weeks ago about doing tempos in a parkrun.
I realised I missed a page in the thread where there a was a lot of talk about the mental side of things. Since I don't invest that much in paces or races - I'm not challenging at world/euro/nation champs etc. the mental side just falls away - my dominating anxiety about any tough session or race, is keeling over ! I'd rather do that in a crowd
So the gist of my convo with my club mate was that it was the interval nature of the threshold running that made it hard to get the effort in the right ballpark. He was going from easy to very fast for 10-15 minutes, hanging on during then getting a good rest and going again. The pace was peaking during the interval then dropping off slightly each time. Classic overextended 5/10k pace stuff but at significant volumes. He had been doing this for 6 months so we were very surprised not to see his half time drop. There may be a time and place for this sort of stuff but I would contend that you need the big base of aerobic work to get your body prepared for that kind of work.
Lots going on here while I've been away!
Congratulations to Dean at the World championships. Also to Simon & Dachs in the relays and for getting to the Worlds. Competing for Team GB must be a good feeling!
SG/Muddy - I'm with Muddy on doing tempos on the road, I feel it prepares me better for racing. Although it depends where you can run. I'm pretty lucky that I have some quiet roads/cycle paths I can do my tempos on. Failing that theres the 0.9m loop round Cannon Hill park! SG you should definitely do a marathon, you've got the miles in your legs and you would probably enjoy it! They might have to expand the post limit for the report though!
Joe - 5 hours on a turbo is insane! Very impressive, talking about electrolyte/fluid replacement I would recommend looking at Precision Hydration. They do personalised Electrolyte doses to match your sweat levels, seemed to work really well for me over summer training! Really looking forward to seeing how you get on at Kona, I've always wanted to do a Tri so enjoy following your story!
A week off on holiday last week with just a bit of swimming to keep ticking over. Back to it this week with 8 easy miles on Monday and 10 x 3mins off 60s last night. First 5 at HMP (6.20 avg) and last 5 at 10k pace (6.02 avg). All easy miles now until Sunday's Cheltenham Half, looking forward to hopefully posting another PB, fingers crossed!
Cheers SW -Good luck with the half. I vaguely remember Canon Hill pk from halfway round the Brum 10k in May..first hot race of a few this summer! Bus - that's terrible. The joke, not that you're feeling rough (seriously though - hope you feel better soon..). Tempo runs are bloody horrible. Good training though, on track or road.
Dean - I've done the Stoke triathalon years ago in the early 90's.
1. Newcastle Brown drinking at Leek Rd Union
2. Running across to Zarka's on Stoke road
3. Eating a kebab from aforementioned establishment.
Far more fun..
There is the Jubilee River - but just from a run round it just then, it's pretty darn windy, gravelly, a bit undulating, and very easy to screw directions up. I somehow ended up in Chalvey - the "zone" of all zones in Slough.
I used to like my 0.9mile loop on a slightly undulating loop. Good for the brain, as it didn't feel like such a haul - as per the across town rampage, and not the mental ruiner of a 24-28 lapper on the track!
Only issue was that it was a bit dangerous looking back, a few blind bends, lots of pedestrians, a lot of drives, and a petrol station on route! Probably didn't help consistent pacing too in fairness!
Muddy, sounds like your pal was just trying to smash the reps. I could no doubt do these tempo reps quicker than 5.52, but i'd know I was fooling myself about holding that for a long distance.
All I do know, is that after a 6-8 week block really working the threshold zone, ranging from mere 1ks through to the 20-15-10-5 (all mins session next Tue that is the peak of the mile, and quite some challenge!) I can't be any better prepared to run a 10miler at that pace.
Wokingham in Feb for a half was 5.54 as well, so it's as realistic as can be. I'd imagine some may say 5.52 is underselling...but I've never been one to overdo the predictions.
ps once again - marathons are too far thank you very much.
I'm trying to forget I've foolishly entered that Endure 24 gubbins next summer for the princely sum of about 70 clams - so that can be my equivalent
SC - I like the sound of that triathlon!
SG - That's a coached session, I've been working with Lewis Moses from New Levels Coaching, really enjoyed it so far and I've made some big improvements. Theres been a focus on long reps and short recoveries, the two big ones being 12 x 1k off 90s and 7 x mile off 60s. Both at 10k pace!
talk of tempos and surfaces...let me direct any scorn towards me
im also a fan of cruise tempos (from the daniels book) instead of 4m tempo at 5.35 pace. you do 4*1mile off 60 secs at about around 5.20 pace. the little recovery makes it easier mentally but you still get the training effect. i do these on the track so its easy to know every 200m if im on pace.
ps. SG is as likely to do a marathon as i am in the future. no chance, you have to be nuts to do one of them.
in new kit news i bought a pair of the nike zoom fly...the slightly junior brother of the vapour 4%. must say they are rather nice and bouncy, yet light and due to the plate in them means you are forced onto your toes. nice! can highly recommend.
https://www.nike.com/gb/t/zoom-fly-running-shoe-wPQntc/880848-001
The only time I even for a second think about it is around London marathon time, but it generally goes the next time I do a 13miler thinking, this is certainly plenty!
Stevie, that 7x1mile looks one hell of a session.
I built to 5x1mile at 5.30 dead once, probably off 90secs.
I also remember a spell of mixing 10k laps with steady, that probably peaked at something like 5 x4 laps 10k, 1 lap steady.
7 off 60secs is huge, and I dare say would for certain guarantee you could do that in a 10k race!
Anyone local thinking about any road races locally November - December?
Bus? Phil? Simon?
I won't try and win the Burnham Beeches 5k for a 3rd year in a row, as it's just too bootleg, and a tough course. (think i was doing 19mins +!)
However, could be open to a 10k somewhere, to get a 2018 result on the PO10.
That Hatfield 5miler we did 2 years ago is interesting, but could result in much IRE as it clashes with an XC.
Maybe an Oxfordshire 10k?
Also have half an eye on the Marlow 7/HM, and Gosport HM 2 weeks later.
Wycombe are due to play Sunderland away the day before Gosport though, which is one of those once in a lifetime trips - playing a giant as league equals - it won't happen again!
Also - a bit unsure if a HM is wise as I won't have done over 12miles for a month or so, which isn't the best fit for a good effort at one.
I doubt I'll be able to do GSR now as my son is with me that week. Shame really as I'm recovering very well from the marathon and could do a good easy volume next week I think, then some sharpening work the week after to give it a good go.
Simon - you didn't ever play 5-a-side footy up at Keele did you ? Or do some work up there ?
Dean - I tried the previous iteration of the Zoom Fly (non-flyknit) and sent them back - they felt very harsh and stiff - like running on a couple of blocks of wood. I read the new sole is softer though so may give them another try out.
+1 for telford 10K very fast. but it will sell out about now if it hasnt already. Wave 1 is for sub 31 mins! wave 2 32-39mins wave 3 is 40+
muddy, the zoom fly, i know what you mean. warming up they were super bouncy but when i sped up they were stiffer due to the carbon plate...which i guess is what you want. you need it to be firm if you are pushing pace rather than maybe more spongey on a LSR.
Telford, i have heard good things, but as per Dean, while i'm sure it is still open, it's Wave 2 only now!
I am open to some "Big time" races again now. The Eastleigh and suchlike events. Will double check the Abbey Dash dates. I think it doesn't work round footy stuff, which i'm keen to tie up "doubles" for longer trips.
Maybe a good general plan is twice a year going "serious" specific training for the bigger/faster events, and summer doing more club/fun/multiple short races.
If you had time and wanted a longer run you could get to Dorney lake in 3 miles 6 mile tempo and 3 miles back for a 12 miler!
All
Advice needed from the peanut gallery please.
As you may (or may not) know, as a result of my run at Brighton, I was selected to run for England M40s in the Chester Marathon, in 10 days time, where a whole bunch of England vets in various age groups would take on a Celtic nations team. I always knew I wouldn't be able to properly train for a marathon, given my build up for Malaga was focused very much on the 5K, but figured I could drop in some long runs here and there and would still be able to put in a reasonable performance, albeit not be close to PB shape. Maybe a 2:35 or something.
However, since coming back from Malaga I've been struggling with illness, and this is still going on, such that I have to shelve my last 20, which was going to be tonight. As it stands, I will have done three 20s, the last of which will have been 6 weeks before the race, and my last long run of 15 miles or more will have been 5 and a half weeks before. Even runs of 10 miles plus have been in very short supply since then.
This has led me to wonder whether I might be better off pulling out. I really want the England vest, but it won't be my last opportunity to wear it, and I just wonder whether I am letting myself in for a world of hurt that I struggle to recover from. A side-benefit of pulling out of the marathon would be that I would be available for the National Road Relays, an event I have always wanted to take part in, and which is far better suited to my current condition - but at the same time I would feel a bit bad for prioritising club over country.
Any thoughts?
Dorney is a smooth loop, though i'm sure that must be a right wind funnel on the wrong day. It's just a bit far away for a run, and would feel a fair drive before and after
I'm cautious enough about a half marathon having not done what i'd reckon is the "right" build up, and feeling fine.
So to not feel too great, and having not done specifics to do double the distance seems a big ask.
At least you'd have the nationals, that sounds by far the smart money, UNLESS you rapidly get back 100%. But 10 days is fairly short notice.
I expect you wouldn't want to crawl round, man of your esteem, and that may be the risk if you proceed.