Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    Good sessions chaps, and admirable consistency on the classic 8x800s Joe.  Changed my plans slightly this week, with the double coming tomorrow instead of today (bloody lunchtime meetings!). Today is now supposed to be 10, with 8M at MP effort. Not sure I totally fancy that tbh!
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    You're definitely an outlier on that Pete.

    For one thing, there's that strange feeling of a day before a race run. Typically the pace won't feel easy at all, and any strides will barely hit the pace you're trying to have as an average the next day :)

    So let alone trying to race the day before. Utter bonkers really ;)
    But then if you're including that club time trial in your 10k results, getting near your 10k raced time in a mere time trial doesn't really make sense either.
  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    SG: I didn't include any of the club TT's in that analysis. I usually do about 4 or 5 of those a year too and they are always pretty much on a par with 10k races. Not sure I buy into this "race day magic" stuff; not for me anyway. If you are racing the same distance on the same sort of terrain and giving it your all (which is the biggie) why should it matter whether its a solo TT or a 5000 runner race. Some people run a bit better due to pace around them, adrenaline, wind shields etc, others a bit worse due to stress, travel to the race, unfamiliarity with the course. Its all swings and roundabouts.    
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2019
    I'd say pretty much everyone races better than they train. Unless they're a newbie, improver, or Dom from Handy Cross ;)

    If I was doing the same times in a casual club10k time trial as I was in a 10k race I'd think one of 2 things.
    1) The time trial isn't accurate
    2) I'm underdoing the racing.

    You may obviously be a very rare exception to the rule, which may somehow be down to not doing sessions as such in the week.
    Or you may have faster than you know possible within you!
  • I've a couple of halves booked either side of Wokingham Pete. Will see how things fall weather and fatigue wise  when working out which I go for.

    Do you monitor effort ? That gives you a good basis for comparison on the shoes if you compare like for like courses.

    How do you convert up the distances ? I know a chap (he's a Pete too) with very good marathon times but is relatively flat when working across 5k and 10k (both coming out around his best half pace). Totally slow twitch...in which case I could reason with your ability to run 'hard' at shorter distances consistently regardless of taper.
  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    Comes back to my point about effort SG; either consciously or not most people put more into a race than training or even a timed TT. However I usually put just as much into the TT as I would a race, so no reason to expect any less to come out. Rarely doing the type of sessions you guys do is also a function of my frequent double race weekends,. I just couldn't cope with a hard midweek session added to those (especially if it was the club Tuesday one after only 1 day rest).   

    Muddy; I'm pretty aligned by all the distances (if you ignore marathons which have never been my thing).  All pb's very much in line with Macmillan pace calculators all the way from 1 mile to a HM. In terms of measuring effort its pretty easy for me; its 100% best I can do (most pr's and races) or a run to feel training pace I don't care what the time comes out as. BTW Go for Wokey if you can; promises to be a big thread event!
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2019
    That's sort of ironic if you think about it Pete. Can't cope with a midweek sesh, but can race back to back days ;)
    And in a sensible training plan, you wouldn't be doing a session on the Tuesday after a race (I'm always amazed some Datchet guys do- - although our 55 year old legend certainly wouldn't, maybe there's a reason he's made it to racing at 55 after starting young!)

    Some people would call that Ealing mile a "time trial". So on that level, yes I'd put the same effort in there versus a "race", as to me there is no distinction. So maybe for you, it's similar, just a longer distance.

    Now, to be aligned on McMillan takes some right old doing I think. I always though, and Moz did too, that I was more a short distance guy (road I mean, obvs not middle distance!). Yet my apparent best pound for pound stuff is 10mile - half! It'd have me mid 16s for 5k! Behave.
    I won't even check the mile ;)

    Maybe I never maximised the short stuff when I was doing my peak longer stuff though. However, In a way I'm happy not to have then, as I can still get within 3 secs of pb over 5k like last year!
  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    Ironic at first sight SG but it follows; it's because of the back to backs I can't face a sesh Tuesday. Without them it would be fine.

    BTW here's a link to the 10k TT course; https://www.plotaroute.com/route/754918

    It's clearly a full 10k and quite undulating too. Its free and open to anyone who fancies it, not just WV. Takes place on the last Sunday of each month and would be good to see you or any of the other thread relative locals there some time.   
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    Well, did the ten miler, and pushed it to get the 8 at MP effort. Slower than last year, but not too bad, with 6:49 for the 10, and 6:41 average for the 8.  Can't prove it though, so maybe it didn't happen - I made the stupid mistake of allowing a new software install on my Garmin yesterday. It is syncing with my phone, and shows the full step data and total miles, but not that I have done a run - grrrr, very annoying!!!!
  • Pete, there may be an alternative correlation, that you only do PR/10k doubles when you're feeling good, hence better 10k time. I agree with your 1:17 prediction. I've been a bit busy today so my run is going to be at risk of the snow, having said that, I enjoy running in the snow. It's the day after where it can be dodgy.

    Muddy, according to the P&L plan, if I followed the HR targets, I'd be running the long runs around 6:3x pace but that seems like too much effort to me. So it's not about SG so much :)

    I am not making any personal predictions for Wokey, I have no experience of following  training plan like this.
  • Nice going there Bus. If it ain't on strava though, it didn't happen. 

    To add some fuel to the fire, I ran a half marathon PB the day after a 5km PB a couple of years back. I'm definitely not anti a bit of hard work the day before a race. But like others have said, almost impossible to tell if you'd have gone even better if you hadn't have done it. 

    Reg - I reckon you'll go sub 1:15 at Wokey. No word of a lie. 
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2019
    You're sort of following a plan, but by not really following it Reg :D

    Like JB, I have a strange feeling that unlike previous halfs where you've gone in with a bit too strong an aim, and tailed off, this time round it'll be different.

    ps Joe, i can believe the 5k/half combo, if it was early doors in your career.
    I once played a football game that went into 30mins extra time the day before a half marathon pb! And it was Marlow half! - a really hilly one!

    Just the idiocy of youth. "Yeah, i'm sort of doing a really hilly half marathon the next day, but playing a gruelling mudfest cup tie will deffo be fine the day before. Not just the day before, but 3pm the afternoon before, finishing 5 ish!"

    Thinking back, blooming heck!

    I actually remember turning up, casual like with some massive shorts on, hands in pockets like it was a casual walk about with your gran.

  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    edited January 2019
    I'm with you Pete. I used to go easy at parkrun before racing but now I go hard & both races have improved. I also avoid proper sessions these days as I need the recovery but then I am almost 50. My flat 8M race is a good indicator. My PB of 49:06 was set after running 18:46 at parkrun the day before & last year I ran 18:28 on the same course before a 49:29 on a windier day. My previous PB in 2015 was set the day after a hard parkrun (2015 CR by that point according to Strava) & a 4M fell race!
    Similarly I've run some of my quickest parkruns by doing a hard 5K the day before or a 10K with some hard efforts. I ran my then fastest road HM time the day after a hard parkrun/ 5.5M fell race combo back in 2013 though that did probably cost me a minute or so.
    I recommend reading Ron Hill's autobigraphy particularly Part 1.
    Training miles banked before the rain/sleet kicked in today. 8M with strides before work & then another 5.1M at lunch so a good day. Legs felt fresh from my runless recovery yesterday but took a couple of strides to get up to a decent speed on the efforts.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    There you go Pete, a guy who races 75 times a year is on your side :):)

    ALmost 50 though son? You deffo look younger! Maybe it's the excessive racing!
  • When I first came on here, I set a HM PB at Marlow the day after a 55 mile hilly bike ride. I think I'd run something a bit quicker at the GNR 15 years earlier but couldn't remember the time and my official time was wrong.

    Joe, I like the optimism but I don't feel I have that in me yet. My 5k PB is probably my best and that converts to 1:17:24. Am I even in 5k PB shape, even if I am in slightly better shape then it's in the 1:16:30-1:17:30 range I feel.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Those McMillan conversions definitely set some tough gigs at the lower distances I find!

    But others say they find they match well. I think the lesser spotted Dachs said he converted particularly well at one stage.

    It'll be interesting. While I do like some random races miles from home knowing absolutely noone at times, this will be the absolute opposite, having a club champ, a fair few on here, and a tonne load from the local scene.
    Marvellous.
  • Jools - been looking for a copy of one for ages but can't seem to find one that doesn't cost a bomb?

    Reg - this is the first time I've seen you hit consistent training and follow a proper plan, that's why I think it'll be different, I'm convinced you've got the talent.  

    Thought I'd have a gander at those calculators, my marathon PB puts me quite laughably at 1:15 for a half and 16:24 for 5km! Never got anywhere near that. 
  • Joe: I was jammy enough to find Pt1 in a charity shop for £1.50 :) I had no idea what a valuable collector's item it was at the time. It was only when I looked up getting Pt 2 online I discovered what a bargain I'd had. Parted with a fair few quid for that but definitely worth it though Pt 1 is by far the better read. 
    Cheers SG. I've done over 50+ races & 50+ parkruns a year for the last 3 (maybe 4) years. Some of those are track meets when I'll do 6 or 7 events cause most in the club haven't embraced T&F. Fortunately there are a few sprinters so I usually get to avoid the humiliation of the 100 or 200.
  • Clearly those calculators are for the typical runner. Joe, I'd guess you were right over on the slow-twtich fibre side of the spectrum. Explains why you're so good at running off the bike, you're just not using up those glycogen stores like I can if I push too hard.

    I remember watching Mo Farah on Superstars running 13 seconds for the 100m, the same pace he can run a final lap in the 10,000m!
  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭
    Reg, mo farah came 3rd in the dads race at his kids sports day.  He was honest after and said he went for it too.  As a 3.28 1500m man you would expect a little more pace.

    muddy, well remebered, that half in Birmingham I was pacing/witness for a mate setting the much coveted world record for a half marathon dressed as a nurse.

    not to add any online pressure but I will be putting money on joe smashing 1.20.  As long as he goes out at the right pace he is certainly capable of destroying it.
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    He's definitely going to break 1:20, barring gale force winds, snow, ice or misfortune! If he doesn't, then he aint allowed to wear the hat anymore :wink:

    Lunch run is on Strava now after uploading the file direct - that's a relief, as now I know it actually exists there is a reason my hip and back are hurting :sweat_smile:
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    o:) We can all rest easy now Bus
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    I can't - not with me back giving me gyp :wink:
  • Unfortunately I can't take up the Wokey gauntlet Pete, as that weekend is my son's birthday, so instead of receiving a goody bag, I'll be handing them out. Your performances seem enigmatic :)  You could be getting DOMS from the weekends hard efforts if you can't go again (moderately hard) by Tuesday evening.

    In marathon training, I will sometimes overload and do back to back weekend hard (not race) efforts (due to not having much time in the week to do proper warm ups and cool downs) and then take a long rest from Sunday morning through to Tuesday lunch. The feeling of my legs come Tuesday lunch is usually pretty dire, but something like 6x400m fast on the treadmill wakes them up and I can put out a decent evening run. Then it's just a case of grinding through the remainder of the week. It's tough but doable.

    Reg, that does seem a challenging pace though it comes in 20s a mile slower than my idealised pace at marathon effort. It'd correspond to the top end of my easy zone in good conditions actually. Having read about polarised approaches, it also seems to be smack in the middle of what those approaches call the grey zone where it's too fatiguing. So yeah, good call to not stick to that.

    Good run Bus and, earlier, Stevie.

    In light of the snow forecast I did my workout at lunch where it was sleeting.  Thought I would join up with the club for an easy jog out tonight as the weather was still decent. However I slipped on some lingering slush and despite only jogging through a warmupI at that point, I made a proper faceplant so I've got a big cut under my eyebrow and a black eye now, not to mention some torn muscles/tissues around my ribs :(  Even worse I am sure Ric has cautioned against this sort of thing so I am going to brace myself doubly now ;)
  • Sounds nasty, Muddy. Decent session SG, I have made the effort to type the whole of the word 'decent', take note Joe ;)
    Nice MP run by you Bus, it always surprises me a little when I see you running a decent pace on the roads, almost forget you can do it with all that time you spend trudging through hilly mud fests!
    Life kind of got in the way today so I had to play one of my two wild cards for the week, I have a rest day and a recovery run, I decided to play the recovery run and save the rest day for later. Meant going out at 23:30 though. I have to say I quite enjoy running on deserted streets at night.
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    I certainly not about to say 'I told you so', Muddy. It was an accident. But get well soon. Sounds like one horrendous fall considering the damage.

    No comment from me on racing matters. I've done less than twenty in the past five years!

    🙂

  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    Rotten luck there Muddy and hope you recover quickly. Sometimes the injuries from those type of falls look worse than they are, so hope that's the case for you.

    I think for me it's not so much I couldn't do a Tuesday session after a double weekend at all; more I don't see how it would help. I wouldn't be fully recovered and it would mean too high a percentage of fast paced work amongst the weekly total. 

    Reg; you are dedicated and maybe a bit nuts! There is everyone else locked indoors with freezing temps, sleet, ice and snow about and you go out for a midnight run😮
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Bad one Muddy, less the bruising of your handsome face, but the other stuff. Is that a rest off completely job? I remember one time I slipped and once the adrenaline had worn off, I'd obviously done some rib thing as I couldn't breathe properly for a few days, having to sack off the Marlow half.

    I always wondered if this had some sort of effect on me eventually getting that bloody costochondritis thing, which again had the eventual "did this?" affect me for the Wycombe half/long recovery!

    Hopefully for you it's just a few days off, and over!

    Mad from Reg.

    Tippy toed a mile to a park in Slough, and then did some dull loops of that, to see a 5.5mile morning run. Will do a 4 later.
    It'd be too much of an ask to do it as a single in this potential icy weather I think.
  • Yeah Pete, I understood your thinking. I was just explaining how I balance it all out i.e not all out on the back to backs (rarely more than 10k effort for say 5k volume) then marathon tempo early on in the week.

    Stevie, Similar situation here, after sleeping it off, the ribs/inter costal areas  are not going to let me train. Eye is closed off with the swelling but looks worse than it is. Fingers crossed that rib pain will tail off, but I think the 10m cross country race at the weekend is not going to happen for me.
  • Blimey Muddy, sounds pretty nasty. Really hope you recover sharpish - rotten luck. 

    Reg - You got to remember I'm one of the cool kidz. I'm allowed to use 'dece'. I'd been asleep for 2 hours at the point you headed out for your run..

    Bike session this morning - 18x1 min VO2 max stuff. Legs felt a bit stiff from track the previous day. Followed it with a run to work (6.5 miles). A bit of ice but nothing too sinister. 
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