Moraghan Training - Stevie G



  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    JB -I certainly won't be telling them that!

    One of them doesn't work, as his wife is a bit of a big deal in the city. Even someone with my exceptional level of free time and lack of responsibitiahs, gets envious seeing him pissing about putting luxurious 20milers in on Monday late afternoons!!
    45 and gone from 1hr 21 to 1.18 dead with the marathon training. That's the only part of it that makes me wonder about getting some more gainz.
    But then I think about how Inever wake up on a sunday gagging to comb a 13-14miler out as it is, let alone more

    On another note, anyone see there was a 7 1/2 hour "pacer" at London?  With all due respect, what the heck for?

     If you're going in with the intention of putting that sort of moderate walk pace in, why have a pacer? In case you "overdo" it with a 16.30min mile?

    Obvs disclaimers about how full respect goes into anyone who can finish a marathon and all that. It's just odd to see a pacer for the back end.
    Apparently it was a miserable experience as the pacer got hassled the whole way round and the course was basically finished before they got to places, and the official finish was barely in situe by the end!

    Again, in fairness, if you're getting in at 7pm, when it's all started just gone 10am, can you expect much diffo?
  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭

    Muddy - Sorry to hear about the DNF, not what you deserved. Hopefully you can recover fairly quickly

    Joe - Fantastic performance! Was good to spot you on the embankment and give you a shout out, hopefully gave you a small boost!

    Bus - How are the back issues?

    SG - I read about the 7.5 hour pacer. Whether we agree with it or not it was shoddy treatment from VLM to put one on then pack the course away before they can even get there! When is Endure?

    Ric - You are looking good for Staines! For what its worth I would have to disagree about tempos. Ran properly they are an essential part of training building speed endurance and increasing the bodys ability to clear lactic at pace.

    Building back up now post Manchester, did my first session of 8 x 3mins last week. 2 at 10k (6.00/m) and 6 at 5k (5.44-5.49) off 90s. First 'proper' week this week with 6 x mile of 60s tonight and a 6m tempo on the plan for Friday. Got a nice summer of racing planned:

    18/05 - Stratford Parkrun
    01/06 - Midlands Track Championships 5k - Dean will you be there??
    09/06 - Two Castles 10k
    20/06 - Leamington Track 10k
    14/07 - Northbrook 10k

    Quite refreshing to have a few races to focus on rather then just the big marathon goal

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    SW - agree on tempos. My least favourite run, but by far the key building block to all my pbs in the past. You can run as fast in reps, or as many easy miles in a go as you like, but if you can't put consistent licks in, you won't get very far!

    Endure is about 7 weeks away, June 15-16
    We're still annoyingly the 1 short then. Trying to influence an excellent clubmate, and our own @Wool, who would also be a real addition for this sort of event.

    Reg and JB would have been dreams too, but too packed schedules unfortunately.

    If we have to go 7, we'll go 7, but 8 makes it a lot more doable, perhaps 1 go every 3.40-4hours, sounds a lot better than just over 3ish hours...
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    edited April 2019
    Well done on London, Joe. You're definitely at the better extreme in terms of conversion. Especially if you take into account the illness and the aggressive pacing, 2:37 didn't seem out of the question had the stars aligned.

    Sorry yours didn't go to plan Muddy but you live to fight another day, much like Dachs, your perfect marathon seems somewhat elusive.

    Nice training elsewhere and not much going on with me. I played footy on Wednesday and I suspect I have cracked or badly bruised a rib. Went on a cycling trip to Cheddar and managed to get a 13 miler in the storm due to cycling being a bit dangerous. 8 miles today but it was painful to breathe so I'll probably be just doing easy recovery stuff until it heals.
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    StevieWH, the point is 'run properly'. Well most don't. They go too fast. People run tempos or threshold runs because they fancy a hard run/ blow out where they don't need to think too much. All that's needed is the guts to keep pushing the effort.

    But they don't gauge the effort by the book. If they did, it would go down as an easy run.

    I've done loads of them myself knowing full well it's just fitness training, an endorphin rush, a test and the satisfaction of knowing that even at training pace I've stuffed 90% of parkrunners. I've done ok.

    But if you want to teach the body to shift lactic acid, Just run flat out for one minute, rest a minute and repeat. Ten times if possible. By the finish you'll be swimming in the stuff. If you're fast, you'll do near 400m on the first run but half trained you'll be lucky to do 300m on the last. 

    It's probably one of the most stupid sessions around but it works.

    The thing about Tempos and Threshold runs is realising they are a transitional aspect of a training cycle. Once you're on to the structured speed work, the Tempos and Thresholds are a waste of valuable effort and recovery.

    I'm now a bit choosy when I run. It's either a session or a long run. The long run last about six weeks so don't need to go there too often. For recovery I can go on the bike or do some light weights. 

    When I do the session tomorrow, I won't have run for two days. This ensures I can hit the thing good and hard enough without forcing the issue. 

    More to the point is that I look forward to training. I don' t dread any of it. Why should I? I don't have to do it.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭

    So many questions with that little piece Ric. I'm probably misunderstanding it versus some prevo stuff you've said, but i'm sure you'll clear it up.

    If someone does a tempo "By the book", how would it come out as an easy run? They're totally different effort levels. I can understand runners overdoing it, local lad Dom style by all means! (doing the tempo harder than the actual race, or not much different!)

    A few weeks ago, I did a near flat out type of session very much like you mention there. You told me it was next to pointless as I'd never run that quick in a race?

    If a long run lasts 6 weeks, why do so many club runners of all standards do them as a weekly staple? Can't be sheer habit surely? Or do you mean it lasts "you" for 6 weeks as you don't race much these days?

    Obvs at your time of running it's a different boat to more frequent younger racers, so fair play that you do it for enjoyment now.

    I'm trying something different tomorrow, along the lines of the 2 x1 hour tempo/steady jobs.

    Probably 6miles (or 24laps) with 2 laps around 10k effort, 2 laps bottom end of steady (giving myself license to drop to top end easy if needs be!)

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Lets call Tempo a Threshold. Threshold is where you are beginning to work a bit, take an extra breath or two. The point being is that isn't really that fast. But it isn't about the speed, it's about the effort.

    And too many runners simply run until they are on that edge and consider that now they are training hard enough to improve. But the reality is they are doing so too often. They never really build or recover. That is done at an effort level so low that many refuse to believe it.

    Runners go and do the longest run of the week on a Sunday. The long run which lasts six weeks is the 18 miler set amidst 12's and 13's. I should have called it the 'over distance' run. You've done one or two by accident. They are useful.

    Your fast session was too fast to be of use because it was so far removed from your average race pace. 

    You race at barely sub six minute mile pace, but were attacking 200's at well under 5 minute pace. Inappropriate, that's all. Lots at 5:10 pace would be better.

    Training involves several interrelated variables. This makes it difficult for those seeking a single cut and dried method, since the variables are constantly changing.

    Which is the reason my training appears the way that it does. Confusing perhaps. But within the confusion there's a structure. 
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    Blimey, a lot going on on here after having a couple of busy days at work!

    Firstly, many congratulations Joe - an absolutely cracking time from a storming performance! I've always thought the double half plus ten minutes as a good rule of thumb, so you're still well inside that. Mind you, My conversions have always been way in the wrong direction and more like the +17/19 minutes unfortunately!!!

    Muddy - feel for you mate. Really difficult decision to make in the circumstances, and even though you know it was the right thing to do you won't be able to help beat yourself up about it.

    SG - I read about that 7.5 hour pacer on FB too. I mean WT actual F????

    Reg - ouch! Broken ribs are bloody painful, but at least they heal relatively quickly and without much more than just being careful with them. Just hope you don't get hayfever 'cos sneezing is a nightmare!

    Very nice comeback sesion there SW!

    I agree about the tempos SG - all of the big gains I've made in moving PBs on in the past have come off the back off focussed tempos. 

    As for the back, it's moving in the right direction I think.  Yesterday morning felt OK after the 10 on Sunday, but the drive to work was a nightmare! I had to stop half way and go for a walk, then at the end realised I couldn't brake without lifting my leg onto the brake pedal!!!  A couple of long meetings forced to sit in one place meant lots more pain, but some rather intense pilates and targeted stretching in the evening did a world of good!  Running to the station this morning proved a far better option than driving, and seemed to leave me more mobile for most of the day as well. A very easy paced jog back tonight was also fine, so definitely progress. Still can't tie laces or put socks on without some very convoluted moves though :smile: Trying to get some physio sorted out now after a phone based triage session this morning that seemed to suggest muscle spasms were the issue.
  • Thank folks I am not in any way down about it; my assessment was much like Philip's: stop now and be able to resume training fairly promptly.  The only thing that is really broken is my bank balance !
  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭

    Glad you are feeling chipper Muddy, hope the virus clears soon enough.

    Seems positive on the back Bus!

    Ouch Reg! I stopped playing football after I had my collarbone broken in a 'friendly' game of five a side. Do miss it though

    Session went well last night, 6 x mile off 60s recovery. Plan was for first 3 at HMP then progress from there. 6.12, 6.14, 6.14, 6.05, 6.03, 5.56. Really happy with that and felt in control for all the reps. Itching to get racing now!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Looks nice SW. I dare say beforehand you thought, will these come out right, then you find you can easily storm it up later.

    I freestyled the sesh I mentioned before - a mix of straight forward 10k reps, mixed into a continuous run as per some of the 1hour versions recently.
    2 laps on, 2 laps off for 6miles, well, 24 laps.

    Averaged 1.24 lap for the 10k laps.
    4x1.24, and 4x1.23, with 3x1.25 and finishing with a 1.21

    Decent session, it builds up and you're sweating, but not "that" fast.
    But with a 5mile race up soon, worth locking in at this pace.

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    reg - never far away from drama...hope the collar bone heals quick

    Muddy - sorry to see the DNF but sometimes brains have to override balls.  too many would have carried on and caused damage but i feel like you made the smart choice.  there is always another race.  

    Joe - wow, that time was tasty....that puts you in simon territory which i consider very quick over a huge congrats.  

    I was down in london town to watch the marathon, managed to catch up with simon at surrey quays to give shout outs.  Didnt see joe and his flat cap or muddy unfortuntely. 

    Was there cheering on wife who accidentally was accepted in the ballot and i wrote the training plan for her (she has minimal running experience).  these were her 5k splits bang on target with even a slight sprint finish.  4 hours bang on. Though half in 1.58, closed in 2.02.  not too bad considering her knee went at 10miles. 

    I have pulled out of the england 10k team due to race in 3 weeks, not fit.  struggle to hit easy targets on the track so have decided to hit the reset button. and go back to a base phase then go from there.  so SWh i might not be at the midlands 5k.  but im not ruling it out just yet.

    regards all the tempo talk, i think tempos are a key training session.  Its true i do more sessions in the reps you talk off rather than tempos but i agree with SG its the knitting the miles together that valuable as its "easy" to thrash yourself in a rep as you know it comes to an end at 400m, whereas mentally a tempo is harder in many ways. 
    Similar to i can hit 200m reps at 1500 pace all day for fun...but give me fewer 600 reps or 800 reps at 1500m race pace and they get serious very very quickly.

    Also on SG's 200s session being not much value i disagree...i think you need to do sessions at different paces so you dont become a "wendy one pace". and in a race you need to change pace to cover moves or break away.  Also its good for the mind to do something completely different.  

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    As per above Reg - missed that. You can't be playing footy though - you're a proper runner now!

    Bank hol Monday has loads of potential races, but all have some sort of negative. Be it non po10, silly start time/evening, bootleg standard, MT etc.

    One 10k, with about a 180 feet climb midway over around 1.8miles led me to compare the 3  main 10milers our way, Maidenhead, GSR and Cabbage Patch.

    GSR and CP have a max of 8 metres climb, whereas Maidenhead surprisingly has a couple of 25-30metre jobs.  The one in mile 9 you feel as it upsets you a bit that late on, with the bridge and fussy twisty bits before the final fast mile, but the one earlier is obviously too early to really notice!
  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    Great marathon Joe and bad luck Muddy. You have had some tremendous results in the last few months so glad you are still looking at the bigger picture. Guess most of us have had a few DNF's in our time and though they are frustrating they soon fade in the memory.

    Hope you are right again soon Bus; you seem to manage to run through the pain barrier better than anyone I know so big respect for that.

    Lots of good sessions going on (especially Ric). My twopenneth for what its worth is not to fuss too much about sessions, speed, whether its tempo, reps or intervals etc. but just make sure training is varied. Different terrains, speeds, distances, routes, times of day etc. Add in some cross training if you have other sports you like and if you do that you pretty well prepared for races. 

    Just on your last post SG, CP10 has the steps up to Richmond bridge which has to be more than an 8 metres ascent alone doesn't it (as well as being trickier than a normal climb)? They certainly come at a nasty time too, with only a mile or two to go.    

    Quiet weekend for me racing wise with just a parkrun. Did Alice Holt near Farnham which is lovely scenery but very hilly. Was quite pleased with 19'37 till I saw RB had rated the course only 2.2. The previous week I had done California Country Park in a similar time the day after Maidenhead 10 and they rated that one 5.0; I thought it was easier than Alice Holt. Can't work out how they come up with their numbers at times though I know they're based on supposedly smart algorithms.  
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    Not by the look of this Pete

    The 8metre is well before half way. The steps don't even register more than what can be about 5 metres. Maybe it feels more as you're nearer the end and it's over a shorter spell.

    I drove past that bit coming back from the Wimbledon away game last week...looked familiar despite not having done it since 2012 
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Ah RB.... Maidenhead 10 with my sensible even splits approach versus the many crumblers, saw me get a -0.2, which (presumably coincidentally) took me from 2.2 to 2.0.

    For about a day, and I'm back to 2.1! 
    One of my previous races must have expired!
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    I haven't broken my collarbone Dean, that was the reason SW (nice reps btw) stopped, mine is a rib.

    It was supposed to be a kick-about with mates who had a free pitch due to a league match cancellation  but low and behold they did have a match, against what appeared to be the So Solid Crew. It was more competitive than I'd hoped and I got an elbow from John Coffey's bigger brother.

    I don't think it's a big deal though. Glad to hear you're making progress Bus. Re the Tempos, my 5k PB last year came off the back of pretty much no sessions at all so I don't feel I need to do much speed work to do ok.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Pbs can come from funny places sometimes!

    On an unrelated topic, I find myself looking at races coming up quickly quite often, even though most usually I never enter that late...

    Southampton have a big festival of races, a 10k, HM and M.

    Quite good numbers, 1,000+ in the 10k and marathon,  4,200+ in the half.

    Yet an almost criminal lack of depth at the front end.

    A mid 35 10k gets you top 4 in the 10k, only the top 5 were quicker than 1.18.37 in the half, and only about 14 were sub 3 in the marathon.

    Can there be many half marathons with over 4,000 runners that get so little front end? Maybe Silverstone back in the day, but that still had a lot more than 5 sub 1hr 19!
  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭
    The proximity to London Marathon probably deters the faster runners, I think it was the on the same weekend last year. Jump into the half SG and bag yourself a prize!
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Good positive approach Muddy.

    Good work Mrs R - takes a good coach to get those sort of even halves :smiley: Shame about the 10k, but understandable for sure!

    Good session SG. Pednor 5 might have a big hill, but it's actually an enjoyable route and not too slow - the last mile is very quick! I did a 29:50 there and 29:04 at Marlow 6 days later in 2010 - I must have had amazing powers of recovery as a youthful 41 year old :smiley:

    Also a cracking miles session there SW

    I was probably too hasty about my back progress yesterday - it has been very painful again today and won't seem to loosen up. It might be a result of doing a double yesterday, but who knows? Both runs were comfortable enough at the time. Either way, my lift to the station this morning was excruciating.  I'm supposed to be running home but just can't decide which I fancy less, running, or a short, agonising trip in the car!!! It's becoming a bit of a drag now after nearly two weeks of it - for you guys as well as me I suspect :blush:

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    I dare say you're not helped by having to do doubles as your means of getting home sometimes!

    As otherwise you'd ease back in with a single and monitor progress?

    Mr sikora was obviously the recovery mastro.

    Who could forget him doing the mk marathon. 2.45-50 mixer? and pednor 5 (sub 30!) the same...


    Though he seems to have disappeared totally off the scene for a year or more now.
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    Yeah - he was something else! I saw him at a race recently but can't think where (and I haven't done much racing!) Might have just been his name on a report though, possibly Cliveden!!!
    Mind you, I'd done a 17M off-roader tow days before Pednor, then did my PB at the Fairfield Horseshoe fell race the Saturday after the 5M PB at Marlow, then came 2nd in the Queen Mother Reservoir Evening 10k in 37:18 (gravel course) a couple of days after that! Happy days :smile:

    Takes me a week to recover from a parkrun now :smiley:

    Decided on the run home in the end. It was OK -may be sore later, but certainly better than the car option and easier than I'd expected!
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭

    See how it is tomorrow ;)

    Mr Sikora hasn't turned out "properly" (he's well known for being an unorganised boob - so i'd never rule out not having a barcode/someone else's name etc) since Feb 18...

    2015 was his real hot form.  A sub 2.40 even quicker than Joe just did by a few seconds in London - super memorable for being in the shot with Paula in her preg/last marathon run out for loads of miles.

    He did Abo a few months later but "Only" a 2.44

    But his other pbs don't do him justice at all.

    Like a 1hr 21 half! Not sure about the splits in his 2.40 but I reckon he probably broke that HM "Pb" in the second half too!

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    RE Pete:
    My twopenneth for what its worth is not to fuss too much about sessions, speed, whether its tempo, reps or intervals etc. but just make sure training is varied. Different terrains, speeds, distances, routes, times of day etc. Add in some cross training if you have other sports you like and if you do that you pretty well prepared for races. 

    John Walker the New Zealand Olympic 1500m champion said as much, thirty odd years back.

    For me that sounded feasible. He also said train in beautiful places. Or was that Herb Elliot? Near enough.

    And at last I discover why after years of no knee issues I got them.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Single 10 for me, day after a session/double.

    One of these strange days that's not actually that warm, has a bit of a breeze, yet still feels very sweaty. I think that's my obsession these days - I dare say years ago it was windiness, now it's any semblance of humidity :)

    7.02 pace. Bit naughtily found myself putting a little monster on midway through mile 9 as some geezer was suddenly on my tail. Can't fight that sometimes, even though totally unnecessary!

    41.5m for the week, a few options of what to do Friday through Monday now.
  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭

    To be fair I thought it was humid last night on my recovery run SG, was sweating way more then normal! Looking forward to a few race reports over the weekend then!

    Was quite tempted by Bristol 10k as I enjoy a big city race, decided against it in the end though. Get a few more weeks training in and have a proper crack at the planned races

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    SW - forgot to say, looks like a good call regarding Southampton numbers! Still surprised it's quite that low quality though, presuming it isn't some hilly monster course.

    I swear it's been fairly humid for ages now...Maidenhead 10 was more hot than humid luckily. I think the heat is easier to take than humidity - that just seems to get you. Whereas with heat it's more "Obvious" earlier, so you can adjust.

    No guarantee of 1 race, let alone more, but there are options....depends if I want to instead put a nice long un in Sunday as usual. It's nice to plan it flexibly at times, versus the days it was all scripted to the letter. Now, I vaguely know what I need to cover session wise in a week, plus a LSR, plus a medium long, and it all fits in as it does.
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    I found my run today to be about the perfect temperature, comfortable in just short sleeves but not sweating that much. I fancied a long one so did a loop taking in the Thames path from Sonning to Hurley. Totalled 20.6 miles but done almost all in the recovery zone. My longest run since Abingdon marathon in 2017.

    Normally I would stuff my face with goodies after such an effort but I am settling for a fruit and nut protein bar and a few bits of dried mango.
  • Blimey Reg, things must be getting serious!
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    Fried egg sandwich and baked beans after my six miler :smile: Not sure how you could cope after 20M with a bit of dried mango and a protein bar Reg!

    Saw a physio today. The good news is, he is pretty certain in his diagnosis - a number of worn discs, aggravated by driving and patio laying.  The bad news is, he has told me not to run for a week to let it ease off. He's also given me some additional exercises to the ten zillion I already do for all the other niggles :D

    Not sure I can take his advice on the running. Apart from anything else, I need to get to work somehow and, whilst I follow his logic about it feeling OK at the time but will aggravate the discs later, all I know is that when I've run to work, I've felt OK ish all day, but when I've ridden or done any of it in a car, I've been in pain all day!  Maybe skip the long hilly one on Sunday.....

    He actually said cycling was OK, but only in an upright position - better go out and get one of those shopping bikes then!!! He also said swimming was fine, but it's just so dull :smile:
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