Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    I had pencilled in a bit of 4x200m, 4m HMP +15secs, 4x200m action today.
    But woke up and there was a snowy layer, so thought you can't be romping around roads at a decent lick if there's a potential for bits of icy/dodgy ground.

    Therefore, decided on 16x200m off 60secs on the grassy park instead.

    Pretty hard work to be honest. In the Adios flats, rather than xc shoes, so a little slippy in places, and surprisingly high wind in one direction.
    Therefore, i'm happy to claim a rough 40ish average, which will do.

    Wanted to get a sesh in today, as i'm off to United's game and staying over, so the most I'll want to do tomorrow is a token gesture 4 or so miler on returning tomorrow lunch.

    Pleased not to have entered the Perivale 5 now. I probably held off due to wanting to see how Hatfield went, and the combination of this trip too. 
    As Hatfield went as well as it could have done, and this snow turning up, it's much better swerved I think.
    There is the potential for a couple of on the day entry turn outs elsewhere if really fancying one, but probably no need to force one, and a chance to get a long un in before xc the week after.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2021
    Wonder if anyone can confirm on a query on Run Britain for me...and I'll read it up north...

    I thought it used to benefit you turning out more, and they used a certain amount of races to get a handicap. So if you didn't race for ages, it would drift down.

    I just gave it a cursory glance, expecting Sunday to have boosted me a bit. But it hasn't.

    It lists 5 races as "handicap counting". The last 2, but then nothing else from 2021. Seems totally random why they're using Feb and Oct 20 stuff, and not any of the pre Marlow/Hatfield stuff done this year.
    Anyone know how races are counted in your qualifying 5?!
  • I'm too short too - So I need to get down to 10.6 stones. I have been sub 11, but not sure I 've been that light. Very old school ;)
  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    edited December 2021
    SG there are a few elements to your RB handicap question. Here's my take on it all but I have no inside knowledge so bits may not be quite right (or even at all right!)

    RB stopped the usual 'decay' of performances with time during the pandemic and have only recently started it up again. So those older results are still in your top 5 as they've not had a chance to decay much. The numbers 1 to 5 are simply your best performances (as decided by RB) and ranked. They are the ones used to get your handicap as this is based solely on your top 5.

    You probably would have gone lower than your previous handicap due to Hatfield, except all the older ones now seem to be decaying more than usual (I reckon they're doing some sort of catch up to get back to where they were with decays pre March 2020). So the impact from the extra decays (handicaps are reset every 2 weeks and it just happened to be today!) have more than offset your gain from Hatfield.

    I am getting (justifiably I have to admit!) rapidly worse according to RB and have gone up from 3.5 in August to 4.4 now. In the last two weeks alone I have gone from 4 0 to 4.4 due to what I think is the accelerated decay algorithm they've introduced (hopefully its only going to be temporary).

    As a rule for thumb, their handicap for +35 mins is what they'd expect you to do on a fast 10k course. So in your case now 37'12 (35+2.2 mins). You could probably do a bit better than that I think, maybe late 36's, so have scope to get your RB handicap down a bit if you race more. For me 4.4 implies 39'24 which is still too generous as I only did 39'51 at the weekend, so should really be more like 4.9. 

    The RB h'cap formula can still be totally messed up by parkrun though and hence 'gamed', though not nearly as easily as it used to be when nearly all parkruns were rated hard!. parkruns get all sorts of seemingly random SSS (difficulty) ratings which impact the vSSS, the RB take on performance. For example my recent Woodley one was given a 0.0 SSS by RB, crazily rating it a faster course than BP or Ardingly. In contrast my Crane one at the weekend, also flat and tarmac, but in horrid weather so very few other than me gave it full beans, had an SSS of 4.2. Due to these huge differences in SSS, RB rated my Crane (5k in 20'28) way better than my Richmond (10k in 39'51)!

    Hope at least most of this makes sense and it does show there is still lots of inaccuracy in the RB system. That said to devise anything better would be almost impossible. Best you could probably do is take parkruns out of it, as Dachs and others have long advocated.

    Would be interested in PMJ's take as he is the guy on here most likely have the best handle on the intricacies of the RB system, which btw, despite a few issues, is much better than I think you would find in cycling or other sports I know. Talking of PMJ that weight in pounds to be 2* the inches you are tall must only work for elite marathoners. I'm about 2 stone overweight on it; should be about 10 stone but almost 12!
  • I've never been too sure what the point of the RB handicap is. Mine is 5.9 and the last entry was NYD Parkrun 2020 18:56! I am tempted by LFOTM to get a proper race in 2021 whilst also having a two year gap between those two runs! I have done the XC races but I guess they don't count.

    One hour quality bike on Zwift at lunch followed by a 5k off the bike at 5:57 pace.

    That 2 x Height in inches is definitely elite level weight but I guess it's the one thing us mortals could in theory emulate.
  • PeteM said:


    Would be interested in PMJ's take as he is the guy on here most likely have the best handle on the intricacies of the RB system, which btw, despite a few issues, is much better than I think you would find in cycling or other sports I know. Talking of PMJ that weight in pounds to be 2* the inches you are tall must only work for elite marathoners. I'm about 2 stone overweight on it; should be about 10 stone but almost 12!
    My understanding is the same as Pete's so your "best" 5 count. I am fairly sure the decay is a function of distance so if you do a good half or full marathon then that stays around for a lot longer than a fleeting 5k PB. There was some adjustment due to the lack of races in 2020 and that adjustment has to be undone at some stage. 

    Maybe the 2 pounds per inch just applies to skinny runners but I used to race at 140 lbs and I am 70 inches tall and there is no way I count myself as elite. Kipchoge is 5' 6" (66 inches) and 115 lbs so half a stone under the 122 his height allows him. 
  • 2x 66” = 132 lbs PMJ. So Kipchoge is well under if your data is correct.
    RB froze the handicap til recently. Mine is now decaying apace.
  • Jooligan said:
    2x 66” = 132 lbs PMJ. So Kipchoge is well under if your data is correct.
    RB froze the handicap til recently. Mine is now decaying apace.
    Kipchoge was bound to be sub 2.

    Planned an off-roader this morning and it only struck me as I got up to go that I'd need a head torch, quite enjoyed it, mainly due to the lack of people.
  • Yeah that weight thing is mental. 

    My V45 ranking on RB has decayed rapidly. I was quite pleased to be top 20 even half the way through the age group. Just checked and now i'm 82nd ;)

    So non scoring xc at Stopsley (Luton) tomorrow for LBAC. Have entered the Fred Hughes 10m in January, near St Albans. Its the non xc weekend, which I always hope a nice Bmth awayday drops into, but sadly not this time.
  • Jooligan said:
    2x 66” = 132 lbs PMJ. So Kipchoge is well under if your data is correct.
    RB froze the handicap til recently. Mine is now decaying apace.
    I'm having a week of brain farts. Must be in need of exercise or beer. 
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    This talk of "decaying" is ugly isn't it :)

    Have always preferred the po10 rankings per distance instead of this odd blanket overall one versus the whole country. But anything that gives you a personal bit of interest has to be a good thing.

    Couple of short runs the last couple of days, 4.5miler after a 4hour + drive back from the north, and unusually a Saturday run (3.5m) just top top the miles up a little.

    Will aim to do something interesting-ish for a long un tomorrow to move it nearer the mid 50s for the week. That's fine in a post race / long trip week.

    Obviously we have the usual end of year review type stuff for talking about 2022 aims and stuff in more depth, but it's a good time in early Dec as you can start plotting potential races for the new year.

    Had a chat with Matt L about potential northern races, so hope to get at least 1 of those in next year, ideally linked to a footy game.
    But it'll be nice to get down to the south coast to do a few fast courses again.
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    edited December 2021
    Double race day again.
    Parkrun first thing: a flat, but slippery, grass 2 lapper. I wore my Mud-Claws but was still sliding around. Slotted into 3rd from the get go. Ahead was an old fell racing rival,who’d always had more raw speed from his rugby days but used to lack running endurance, followed by a chap being dragged around by a bull terrier. We stayed this way til 4K when I managed to go past the dog/human team as the four-footed partner was no longer pulling their weight. 
    Managed to hold on right to the finish for 🥈 just 20s behind the winner. Turns out he was meant to be in Majorca for a mountainous ultra but Omicron restrictions scuppered that.
    Quick turnaround to get breakfast then grab a lift to XC which was 2hrs away round Pembrey Country Park near Llanelli. I always enjoy running this course as the sandy soil drains well so the going is good. A couple of woody trails a few sand traps & some dune climbs keep it interesting enough. Went out much quicker than the previous 2 races this season & swiftly became aware that a few familiar faces were still around me rather than disappearing into the distance which motivated me to push on. Ran really well for about 4.5 miles then tired slightly. The final K was disappointing pace-wise but it included a sand trap, this big sandy dune climb then 3 more grassy dunes & 400m into the brisk headwind to finish. Only got overtaken by one runner in the final 400m though which is a significant improvement. Highest finish position this season 😎
    Skeleton team today with our final 2 counters aged 62 & 67. Nice to pick this up though
  • Jooligan said:
     a few sand traps & some dune climbs keep it interesting enough. 
    I always think that sand is an interesting addition to an XC course. In my opinion, the best courses have a mixture of just about everything: uphill, downhill, flat and fast, grass, sand, water, mud, ploughed fields. The variation makes you think hard as well as run hard: if the course is just an extended parkrun on flat grass then it doesn't take much to put on appropriate footwear and run around at a sensible pace but if you have a mix of anything and everything then you have to make compromises and hope you have come up with the right solution. 
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    How many races have you done with that set of features Phil  :D 

    The old Sandhurst used to have some sand, but can't remember any water at any other event at TVXC apart from Metros a few weeks back, and the old Tadley. Tadley had a marvellous 2nd half. River jump, then lead to some gruelling ploughed fields late on that really sapped people. For some reason I used to be able to put in some big finishes there.
    3rd at Tadley one year seconds off Graham, and behind Bradders.


    Anyway, a good 13 today, 7.03 pace! Best one for a good year, not particularly pushing it, yet coming out nicely , even with the climb to Beaconsfield and plenty of wind.

    I like the low 7 sort of feel as you start thinking take a min or so off for sub 6 doesn't feel such a stretch for a HM again.

    Could say it was the relative freshness of a "mere" 54 mile week, compared to the usual 60 or so, but then I ran yesterday which I very rarely do on a Sat, and had a long drive Thur and Fri. So those features probably level out an extra run or so.
    Hopefully it's a decent step up in fitness following the tempos and Hatfield 5.
  • PhilipMJonesPhilipMJones ✭✭✭
    edited December 2021
    Stevie G said:
    How many races have you done with that set of features Phil  :D 


    A few but not enough  ;)

    I guess to some extent, XC is following the same sort of development as other races. It used to be that most clubs would stage a few races across the years and other local clubs would attend and so they used to be fairly casual affairs. Those small races seem to have been replaced by much bigger professionally organised ones. If you look at the numbers running the TVXC, the Datchet race has gone from 300 to 500 in the years I have been following it. If you get that number of runners then you won't get many landowners willing to allow a river crossing or similar as it just destroys the banks as it did in 1992 at the nationals at Newark. 

    I'm somewhere in that field, green vest and red shorts. Arms by my sides. 


  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Nice plate by the way Jools, forgot to say! Shame our series doesn't dish some bling, but then I think it'd probably be a minefield working out how to dish them. Would it just be the people who'd got into the 6 scorers? And just in 1 race, or 50% plus etc? Or anyone who ran for the club that series? Could need a lot of plates! 

    How does your club do it?

    That looks a gruelling surface Phil.


    6m to start the week off, will do 4 at lunch.
    I've heard there's a walk in jab place quite close 10-4, so will get over there straight after the 2nd run. Hopefully zero sort of reaction like jab 2, as I fancy a tempo tomorrow morn.
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    edited December 2021
    I've only run on sand once, it was the Gaelforce West race in West Ireland, started with a run on the beach and included a run, kayak, cycle, run and mountain climb and descent. Was a great race. When I went to collect my hire bike pre race, it had a basket on the front for shopping  :D A bit of laughing and joking with the Irish fellas and then we walked off with a couple of hybrids instead, some other poor sod got the shopper bike!

    Managed 43 miles last week with just under 9 hours of swim/bike as well so a decent return with a rest day in there too. That 43 miles brings to an end the base period of Wokey training so I should have a few more sessions and a bit of mileage build now.
  • Good work Jools- Probably not doen a course with all of the elements in it, there's not many sandy xc races.

    Love the Newark photo - shorts looking like mens knickers on a few of them. And massive race numbers!

    Cross country on saturday was quite tough. Even though it was a flat course, it was windy. Pace was generally slowing up gradually, as the wind got stronger. The Stopsley course is about 170m above sea level on the top of a hill overlooking the delights of Luton, so quite exposed.

    Ended up about 36th, not too bad, but shows the relative strength of the Surrey League v the Chiltern league. Would have been in the 70's in the SL with that sort of pace.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2021
    With your other sports Reg, even 40miles a week for a few months will be huge.

    Newark Newark...so good they named it twice?
    You need to do a proper XC league like TVXC Simon ;)


    Having had my 3rd jab text a few days ago, I was pleasantly surprised to see some local club were doing a one day only walk in. Brilliant!

    Rolled in, tried not to moan internally about how poorly organised it was...ie you walk in no-one says a word/guides you etc, as these are volunteers. Randoms all sat in different corners, no one saying a word. Me and some woman politely sit down.

    Then overheard 2 different people getting told "You're too early", as I wondered how they'd screwed up, as you'd need a text right?

    Then someone new walks in, goes straight to the front of what turns out to be a 2nd available table, rather than someone being seen! Doh.

    Always stay stood up!

    A few seconds later, it turns out I'm too early too, and I've made the same mistake as seemingly loads - the text is merely telling you to "Book it", and they've sent it out in advance of your own specific 6month date, with no doubt dates starting from that date if you book it online.


    Going in to a walk in without an appointment, I'm a few days short arsedarnit, so had to take the walk of shame out, not quite knowing whether to moan at them or not, remembering they're volunteers and probably nothing to do with them anyway.
    Never mind.


  • Fingers crossed you don't break yourself then Reg. The consistency seems to be working wonders for your running anyway.
    Decent position Simon. XC usually involves a mad dash at the start followed by a gradual slowing anyway. Especially on muddy courses which sap the legs & stick to the shoes.
    Cracking LR SG
    Plate was for the club - I picked it up as Men's Captain. Not sure what we'll do with it. Really disappointing engagement this season means we're currently 2nd from bottom in Division 2 so might get another next season :D 
    Very windy at Pembrey Saturday as it's right on the coast. Managed to use some rivals on the first lap when running into it which saved a bit of energy.
    Tough 18 miler yesterday over the Brecons. First half climbed 2 smaller peaks: Tor-y-Foel (552m) & Bryn (558m) with a crossing of Tal-y-Bont Dam between so plenty of climbing & the descent was mainly slippery grass/loose stones so not much quicker tbh. 2nd half was a pleasant trot back along the canal though my legs were shot so 8:30s was as much as I could do. Standard 35 minutes at lunch today.
  • Nice work at the XC SC. Quality Jools adventures too.

    Sounds like you're finding a bit of form SG, it's been a while since you've reported an SG classic 13 miles @ 7s.

    I will be careful about building the mileage, the plan peaks at 63 miles so it's nothing drastic and I give myself license to be flexible with it. I will hope to do the quality and long runs to script though. Started with an easy 8 miles at 7:23 average and a short swim at lunch.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Got another 6mile tempo in today, that's the 4th one of these now.
    Growing to quite like my 2 lap "course", which takes in a half mile grassy park, then very slightly undulating road route.

    6.12 average today Finishing with a 6.02. I "think" that felt more reasonable an effort late doors than the last one, but always hard to judge.

    Pretty sure these sort of sessions are the ones that set you up nicely for the 5-10mile racing range.

    Had dallied a bit too much today in getting out, so even scrapping the cool down, literally got back at 8.54 and had 5mins to scrub up before getting on a work zoom call :D 
  • Nice one SG, impressive getting that in early and 6 miles is a decent volume.

    I had my first quality run of the plan today. 8 miles with 15 minutes at threshold, 4 minute jog and then another 12 minutes. First rep probably took more headwind and came out at 5:44 pace then easy jog before the second one came out at 5:39 average. It was pretty comfortable too, I just hope I don't get injured!
  • Good tempoing both!!

    I kept the Monday one at 7mm last night as didn't feel as energetic. Did 17 lumpy miles Sunday at 7.01 average so I think that and the xc sapped me a little...

    Not going to Luton tonight in this weather - will do something here then I have the monthly 4k thrash around LB with LBAC - The Stag Trophy tomorrow anyway.
  • I should think it did Simon. If your LR pace & your Tempo are almost identical one of them's not right!!
    Decent efforts RegSG
    Treadmill 10K for me first thing: [email protected]:5X then 6x [email protected]:25/[email protected]:5X
    Glad I opted for that as Storm Barra hit us right on cue during my usual track session window :D 
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2021
    6.15 was questionable as a tempo for a man of your ability Simon, so we're definitely not having 7 as tempo :D 

    That's a tidy lick Reg. For that sort of sesh threshold presumably is actual 10mile race pace?

    I think one of the best ever sessions I got off was 2x3mile at 10mile effort, which came out 5.50 average across town. Blimming heck! Must have been in monster shape as went and did a 10miler at 5.42 not long after.

    Jools, treadmill? Thought you were hardcore ;)

    Off to a Wycombe game tonight. Oddly, the 3rd time Wycombe have had a Tue home game on a tempo day. Strangely attuned as I've only done 4 recently.

    Saw the Podium 5k are expanding to Battersea Park now. Great venue, but well beyond the likes of me, as the elite is sub 15.15, and the "open" sub 16. 

    I feel very fortunate to have experienced an all in "elite" race at the Podium 5k in Burnley that time.
    Ex Olympian winning, and me about 50th out of 65 max, in 17 dead, cruelly going over the line on 16.59 but rounded up.
    Was ok as had got the sub 17 at BP that same summer.


  • Stevie G said:
    6.15 was questionable as a tempo for a man of your ability Simon, so we're definitely not having 7 as tempo :D 

    That's a tidy lick Reg. For that sort of sesh threshold presumably is actual 10mile race pace?



    No I don't think it's 10 mile pace, I don't even think it's HM effort. 12 weeks is a long time still though so I will just try to keep a lid on my current optimism and try not to make outlandish predictions!
  • ML84ML84 ✭✭✭
    Stevie G said:
    6.15 was questionable as a tempo for a man of your ability Simon, so we're definitely not having 7 as tempo :D 

    That's a tidy lick Reg. For that sort of sesh threshold presumably is actual 10mile race pace?

    I think one of the best ever sessions I got off was 2x3mile at 10mile effort, which came out 5.50 average across town. Blimming heck! Must have been in monster shape as went and did a 10miler at 5.42 not long after.

    Jools, treadmill? Thought you were hardcore ;)

    Off to a Wycombe game tonight. Oddly, the 3rd time Wycombe have had a Tue home game on a tempo day. Strangely attuned as I've only done 4 recently.

    Saw the Podium 5k are expanding to Battersea Park now. Great venue, but well beyond the likes of me, as the elite is sub 15.15, and the "open" sub 16. 

    I feel very fortunate to have experienced an all in "elite" race at the Podium 5k in Burnley that time.
    Ex Olympian winning, and me about 50th out of 65 max, in 17 dead, cruelly going over the line on 16.59 but rounded up.
    Was ok as had got the sub 17 at BP that same summer.


    Armagh 5k in Northern Ireland is cancelled next year so they've tried to get a fast field together at Battersea. 
    There's 60 elites in the sub 14.30 race, 120 in the sub 15.30 entered then it was opened to sub 16 yesterday. Also 60 elite females. A shame they're seperate races. 
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    Battersea Park allows a wider start line than the Burnley one does, but you'd need chip timing really to have that lot in 1 race.
    Which I suppose because of the cost would take it to a place the Podium doesn't want to be as the whole MO is low cost no frills racing?
  • SCoombes2SCoombes2 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2021
    Battersea is the night before xc league day, so even if I could sneak in, it's a no-go tbh.

    I meant Monday night's wasn't a tempo job as a kept it at 7mm ;) Agreed you can't have a long run the same speed as a tempo. I would say around 6.20's is my tempo pace.

    Last night did the 8mins (3 min recovery) - 10 x 400 (with 60) (3 min recovery) - 8 mins tempo. The tempo wasn't as fast as I usually do. Good workout though.

    4k Stag Trophy blast tonight, then easy life until the masters saturday.
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