Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • Dachs, lighter shoes will definitely make you faster but also give you less support/rebound and towards the end of a marathon you need both. I got caught out recently as I use Nike Air Pegasus and over the years these have got lighter and lighter and in reality the light shoes I bought for racing were only about 20g lighter than my "bricks".

    I find that shoes are as much mental as physical: I find that putting on my racing shoes is part of my race preparation. 

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    Cheers chaps, sounds like it might be worth the investment at some point, especially for the fast and furious stuff like 5/10ks.  I don't think I would've used them for a marathon, where I'd have wanted to be wearing the same shoes as on my long runs anyway.

    Dean - any studies on how long kids can go without food?

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Useful link that Dean. Bascially says 0.8 secs per mile per ounce (28g), so if for example you change from something like a Gel Cumulus (330g) to a DS Racer (230g) that's about 3 secs per mile, without the psychological aspect.  It's not surprising, as weight on your feet is worth a lot more than weight on your body, as you need to move it in 3 directions.

    I reckon this amount is about right for shorter races, but wouldn't hold true for much longer ones as support would become more of an issue when tired. That said, I've run my last two marathons in racers.

    Some good sessions ther Dachs, Stevie and especially Dt2!

    Crap reps for me though at lunch today. Wanted to do 5 x 1k at 3:30, but despite a good start I retched severely half way through the fourth, and abandoned the 5th with a token 400m effort! Splits were 3:30, 3:29, 3:30, 3:35. I blame it on the very humid conditions and a hard run last night - hopefully not an indicator of my likely pace for mondays 5k! I also think the recovery might have been too short at 90 secs.

    Philip - Didcot is looking promising, I just need to get a pass!

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Racers V Trainers, a favourite subject of mine. Probably because I lack power I find I simply cannot generate any leg speed in trainers at all. I'll probably do around 170 strides per minute in the trainers but can hit 200 per minute in the racers. Shows what a rubbish stride length I have when a video I have of me running my fastest ever 5000m on the track with just that stride frequency but PBed at only 16:27:73 Behind Chris Finill who I was leading for most of the way. Get the calculators out lads and tell me the stride length in feet and inches.

    My asics trainers weigh in at 340g, the asics Hyper speed 4 racers weigh in at 200g. The difference is worth to me 15 seconds per mile.

  • Stevie seeStevie see ✭✭✭

    Racer are great, I do a lot of running in my Nike Lunar racers, even easy running as they just make me so much more fleet of foot. But I like them for responsiveness reasons rather than weight. A lot of people obsess about trainer weight when loosing a few pounds of the belly would serve their purpose ten fold.

    IF I did a marathon then I'd use Nike racers, most elite marathon boys use racers so it's good enough for me. Although I might have to rethink that if I had an severely overpronating gait. Fortunately I'm neutral.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    A book called 'Winning without Drugs' had a chapter which made the recomendation of training in race shoes. It was all about stimulating and strengthening the muscles in the feet as it considered this a better way of avoiding injury than wrapping the feet in protective layers. 

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Brings it back to the whole minimalist thing that's going on at the moment!

    Funnily enough though, shoes marketed as minimalist are bloody pricey (given that they are made of less "stuff" how come they cost so much?) but shoes marketed as pure racers actually tend to be priced quite reasonably, even thought they have pretty much the same design ethos (ie low weight, less cushioning and less heel to toe differential) as the current crop of minimalist shoes! Look at the Brooks Green Silence for example.

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    just back from the midlands master T&F (damn i feel old!)

    i had a conference call that finished over an hour late which meant i got to the track with 10 mins to go before my 3000m and needed that to get changed.  So no warm up.  Pre race tactic was to run even pace 75s and sprint the last 600, which should bring me home sub 9.20.  Basically gun went, i shot off and started lapping people.  I ran it on my own with no one around.  1st k was 3.06, 2nd 3.20 i was losing time but it was really windy and i was way out in front. 3rd k was 3.13 for a finish time of 9.39.  way off pace but having no warm up and running on my own in the wind i am happy enough.  tonights pace is slower than my ave pace for 5k image

    i cramped straight after and then whilst doubled over i was asked if i would run a leg of the 4*400m. I explained i was cramping and full of lactic but if they were happy with me trotting the first 200m then trying to sprint the last 200m then i will be a team man.  I was 3rd leg.  We had a 5m lead on passing the baton to me and i thought i cant trot with someone on my shoulder and let him pass so i went off a bit faster and then blasted the final 200m.  Registering the fastest split of the night in 56.5s. Certainly didnt feel that fast!  We won the relay too. Happy days.

    Bus: costing can come down to brand, notice its not the big brands doing minimalist shoes, so the fixed costs of these smaller companies will be spread over smaller sales.  Hence pushing the unit cost up. They are also early on in a product lifecycle and considered niche so costs are often higher for such products.  Think 3dTVs when they first came out compared to now.

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    Dean - great stuff.  Trying to run essentially a 3k time trial with no-one about must have been pretty tricky, and if it brings a win anyway, what's the point of thrashing yourself?  Sure you'll post a lightning 3k when you need to.  That's some 400m time, you really seem to be built for the short stuff.

    Bus - I'd have struggled trying to run 3:30s at lunch today.  It was hard enough work walking from my office to Greggs.  Great retching action though, it's been too long since we had any of that from you.

    Think racers seem like a good idea.  Even 2-3 seconds per mile equates to a reasonable chunk over 10k/HM, though I won't hold out too much hope of mirroring Ric's 15 seconds per mile!

    Track tonight - 400/600/800/1000 all x3 off 200 recoveries.  Pacing a bit all over the shop, was aiming for 80 second laps on all of them, but ended up averaging probably 82-83 second laps.  A combination of the run last night, the heat, and, perhaps, the aforementioned Greggs.  No Sri Lankan Olympians in my branch of Greggs, so I don't even have the excuse of popping in for training tips.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    I had a guy in my club who went from around 78 mins for a half mara straight down to 74:37 the first occasion he did one in racers. There was no stopping him after that.

  • .Seb.Seb ✭✭✭

    glad to hear your getting some miles in RicF.

    thats a rather substantial session there Dachs, especially after the cracking session you did the day before. back to back hard days, ouch. might have been more doable if you left the 400's off, 8.4k at that % effort is quite alot! I quite like the sound of that might have a go tomorrow and 79/80's would also be the target.

    Is that your 1st 3k Dean?, not bad for a starting point but on you own, no warm up! and with the wind, it was never going to be uber fast. was it Tamworth? think our club was there.  

    SS liked the 1k reps, next time you've got to do 5 of them image 

    Corby 5 mile road race last night for me. PB'd by 16secs to bring it in at 29:04. Pleased with that as my 29:20 PB for last year was set on a fast flat course whereas this one had 328feet of elevation gained! and less than 300ft loss. (start at lower elevation than finish) got to be worth over 45secs that, I hope! Came 12th/293 and 8th SM, doing ok in EMGP series overall so far, sitting about 6th.  finally got a break from racing for 10days of so!

    splits of 5:44 (+94ft), 5:16!!! (-219ft), 5:44 (+&-40ft), 6:08 (+54 - 33), 6:11 (+142ft) 

     

     

     

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Hey Seb - that matches my 5M pb exactly (though mine was on a dead flat course image). Sounds about the same height gain as the Pednor 5, whihc is always a few days before the flat Marlow 5, and that works out about 40 secs difference usually.

    Dachs - nearly retched at the 3 mile point in Marlow a few weeks ago too! A lot less of it these days though since more of a focus on reps. Tough session your one!

    Dean - I agree up to a point re the smaller companies and minimalist shows, tooling costs R&D etc, but there's definitely a bandwagon being jumped on and even some of the big brands are selling less shoe for more money. The one that really bugs me though is the cost of VFF. Ok, they only sell in small numbers , but given they are little more than a fancy version of those water shoes you can pick up for £10, how can they really be £100+?!

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    Seb - fair point.  Things are slightly out of whack this week having had a race on Sunday and going away at the end of the week, with little prospect of being able to do much fast stuff next week.  Think i may avoid consectutive tempo/interval days in the heat in future though.

    Great time on a hilly course there.  I'd be delighted with a 5:16 split in any context, even if it was all downhill.  Guess your fell running antics must have stood you in good stead there, and it's good to see you're able to PB like that in the middle of a hard race schedule.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Good run there Seb on a hilly course. Might point out that WAVA has your potential 5 mile and 10k times down as 27:35 and 34:42 based on 4:26 for 1500m. Speeds the key, just stretch it out.

     

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Right, just back from a sweaty 15 miles on the road at 7:09 pace. Quite pleased as was targeting 7:15 and it was quite humid, with a very big hill in the last 3 miles.

    Right, stats time! May: 245 miles at 7.5mph average with 18,000ft of ascent, 3 races but no PBs image

    Year to date - 1,110M, 89,400 ft and 7.3mph, 12 races but just the one PB....

  • Stats: May 194 miles at 8.3 mph, total for the year is 1041 miles at 8.1 mph.

    Seem to have fallen behind bus but faster, but that is the plan, cut down the ditance and bring up the speed.

    Yesterday had a day off as I was barely able to walk: dosed up on NSAIDs, vitaminsand minerals and it seemed to clear so 7.5 easy today. Little one tomorrow and then a weekend away before a race on Tuesday.

    Tuesday will be the second of our summer 5ks. First was this Tuesday and I was marshalligng at 2 and 4.5 k. Michael Hiscott and his famous hair came home first, just looks fast as well as being fast. Then came 2 Dashers, and Sam Gardener from WSEH and then Frankie with a solid 5th. Big gap back to 6th and the rest. It will be interesting to see what happens on Tuesday when we have a full collection of Dashers as we reckon there are maybe 6 more runners who can get ahead of 6th place. Odd to see a whole race go by, lots of sleek looking runners a long way back and old codgers well placed near the front so appearances are deceptive.

     

     

  • Stevie seeStevie see ✭✭✭

    My stats:

    Miles: 160 - pretty low for some reason.

    Races: 6

    PB's: 3 (10k, 5k, 3k) And a gold medal image

    Tonight I followed up a good 3k pace session with 8 x 400m @ 1500 pace. I did 76 the 6 x 75, then finally a 70. I'm sure Phil would approve of that consistency? image

    Deano - nice 3k race, you should be pretty close to 9mins if on your game. 9:10ish? But that is a good one to feel your way into the distance for the next time when you actually get a warm up in!

    Bus - 15 @ 7:09? That's pretty awesome 'easy' running. Very impressed, boads well for your base fitness if you can rattle that out.

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    some good sessions there dach, bus and stevie...good race from seb too over a hilly course. And 3 PBs stevie...outstanding! Well deserved.

    i was lethergic all day so i did a short session of 12*200m tonight in 31/32 off 60 sec rec to get some leg turnover in.

    May stats are 185m ran (974m in 2012)  4 races (5m, 5k, 3k, 4*400m) won 3 of them and went sub 16 in the 5k.  Depending on your view i either got 4 PBs or 1, as it was the first time i had run these distances (although i had run a 5000m on the track)  Not a bad return.

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Looks like the way forward is less miles = more speed then boys image

    Thanks Stevie - I was fairly pleased with that pace, as it's the frst of my long road runs in the build up to Wycombe Half, and I haven't done one since March before Paddock Wood Half. Three Pbs in one month is pretty special!

    Average training speed is a difficult one to judge Philip. The vast majority of my miles this year have been off-road, and all hilly, so that slows things down quite a bit. It's very rare that I get anywhere near 8mph off-road, but most of my long road runs are 8+. Totally accept though that to race fast you need to train fast - it's just I enjoy the off-road stuff more, especially when the weather's nice!  It is time to cut back on the endurance and focus on speed now though....

  • Bus, training pace is very difficult to measure as well. If I go to the track it is about 10 miles and it takes about 120 minutes, but I am running for less than 60, soit is either 10 or 5 mph.

    Wycombe Half looks like a DNE (do not enter) for me, day after a 5000m and possible steeple chase and then a flight to the USA in the afternoon tends to suggets missing is the best option.

    Radio 5 this morning talking about a Sri Lankan athlete who has to run to and from a bakery as he has no funding to train ...

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Interesting. - can't understand why Greggs don't sponsor him! They are missing a trick

    Shame about Wycombe - I was relying on you for helping me do a sensible pace strategy for once (as well as a good head to head opportunity!)

     

  • Wycombe never makes sense to me. A half marathon with a hilly start in the middle of July is just crying out to be missed. 

    My year goes something like this:
    April marathon
    May recover
    June and July 5k
    August 10k
    October 10 miles 
    Jan half
    Feb 20 miles 
    Mar half

    The half in July just doesn't work. 

     

  • .Seb.Seb ✭✭✭

    I dont take any notice of WAVA stats  RicF, but Daniels running formula has 4:27 for 1500m  equating to an equivalent performance of 16:34 5k and 34:23 10k . so clearly my speed is still better than my endurace, but im working on it.

    stats for May: 152 Miles/4300ft @8mph avg. 8 races, PB'S at 10k, 5000m, 6mile, 5mile and 1st time PB's in 10000m & 3000SC. got bronze in the warwickshire 5000m which was probably the highlight of the month.

    year so far; 750miles/32,300ft and 89000 calories burnt!

    just 6 miles easy yesterday, not got much work this afternoon so going down track in abit for an interval session.

     

  • Anyone looking at or doing the real relay? http://www.endurancelife.com/realrelay/ It is a lot of runners doing the whole torch route as runners and no minibus sections. 8,000 miles in 10 mile legs at about 10 min.mile pace 24 hours a day. They started 10 days behind the official realy but should be done in 55 days so will be at the end at the same time.

    I am looking to do a leg or so when it is near me, may sneak out under the cover of darkness to do a night section.

  • .Seb.Seb ✭✭✭

    great find Philip, I will also try to do a stage when Its near me, Ill keep an eye on the page as it looks like they update it only a week in advance. so the real relay should catch up with the torch relay steadily? only showing upto day 13 of torch route at the moment. probably get a turn at 3am or something daft and require a head torch for the out of town bits!

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    seb - 8 races and 6 PBs.  Topping that in june will take some going!!  excellent monthimage

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Ah, but it is the County Champs Philip! (I agree though, it's nota pleasant course and often far too hot!)

    That realrelay looks interesting - shame they haven't got the legs  bit further ahead...

    Seb - good work! Six PBs in one month, and not even half way through the year!

  • .Seb.Seb ✭✭✭

    cheers Bus,That was a good long run you did the other day by the way.

    Plently of time in the season to hammer a few of those PB's down again.  5m being my main target. Sub 28 has always been the target for 2012. Your right Dean it will most likely be very difficult to top May! Possible though, Got plenty still to tackle, 2000m SC, 3000m, 5k road, maybe even 800m and hopefully... the 1 mile! to be fair, the old Pb's were bound to go, only did probably 600miles in whole of 2011!

    just went down the track but it was being set-up for rugby school sports day so had to go out on the roads instead... 2.5m Warm up, 4 x 1m tempo with 2mins jog recovery, 2m warm down. Miles were 5:54, 5:45, 5:59, 5:54. The 5:59 had a small hill in it. happy with those as its the first time they're felt tolerabe rather than painful. Rest day tomorrow maybe then 10-11m long run Sunday.

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Jeez Seb, your speed and endurance is pretty phoenomenal given your base miles from 2011!  With that natural speed and bigger miles this year its no wonder you're smashing those PBs! Good tempo reps too.

    Bt of a dillema this weekend! I'm racing 5k on Monday, and reasonably confident of getting a long overdue 5k PB, but should I do the Coombe Hill race on sunday too? It's a race I've been wanting to do for years, but has always clashed with somehing else. Only 6k, but as close to a fell race as we get round here with plenty of climbing, including one of the steepest uphill climbs in the Chilterns. It's also forecast to be peeing down! Should I follow my heart and do both, or should I focus on the flat 5k Pb opportunity???

     

     

     

     

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