Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Dean - If I was to introduce one key session to help you get in sub-75 shape it would be a weekly tempo session, but mixing up the distances and paces so that you're working around HM race effort over a number of weeks.  So essentially anything from a genuine 4 mile lactate threshold/10k effort up to a full 10 mile run at pace, where you should be able to hit MP and progress to a bit quicker than MP.  10 miles in sub-60 in training with a slow mile tagged on either end would make a nice confidence boosting run!  In between, you could schedule a series of genuine HM effort "longish" tempo runs, building up from 4/5 miles to 6/7.  Your track work will take care of the quicker paces/VO2 max, so you just need to decide how best to fit another hard session into your schedule.  If you're at track on Tuesday I'd do it on a Thursday, and hit it hard.  (Maybe reduce Saturday's session to an easy, shorter run depending on how you recover initially.)

    I don't think you need to go any further than 15 miles for a LR, but maybe add in some quality once you're more used to the tempo efforts.  When I was specifically HM training a couple of months ago, my standard LR would be 16 miles in just under 2 hours, nice and comfy, but every 2/3 weeks I might add in 4/5 miles at MP towards the end.

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    ...oh yes, SG's right to look at your training paces.  The standard LR can certainly be run a bit easier, and if and when you're happy to make it harder by introducing MP sections, definitely ease off on Saturday's run.  Your steady running will be taken care of with the longer tempo efforts, so 6:45 pace is a bit "no-man's-land" IMO.  Best to concentrate your efforts on the few key sessions of the week.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    I've always kept in mind a training schedual by a guy called Bruce Tulloh. Things that stick in the mind, 'as long as there is one session every two weeks in which you run for 90 mins, the distance of the half marathon need not worry you. Also, most of your good training should be done around your best 10k pace from distances of half a mile to 2 or 3 miles in one go. And finally; good if you have natural speed, 'its quite possible for someone on 30 mpw to break 75 mins for the half marathon'.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Just on that last line Ric, speaking to an amazing runner we had at Marlow very temporarily, she tells me he used to only ever run 30miles a week and was breaking 70 for a half, and doing 30 for 10k! I can only imagine that the majority of those miles were smashing it

    It's only this last year he's graduated to 50miles a week.

    Reminds me of the kid at school who did no homework and got As!

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Possible but difficult and they'd have to have a shed load of natural talent!

    Dean I'd agree re the tempo run. One possibility is to incoporate the tempo session within the medium run of 10-12 miles - perhaps as 2 miles warm-up, 6 (building to 8) miles at HMP, then 2 miles warm-down, simialr to what PP has suggested. I'd be inclined to have easy days before and after. SG's schedule looks a bit heavy on the doubles to me - fine if you can cope with them though!

    SG - I was told by my physio to cut down on hills! Trouble is, they just keep appearing whenever i try to run anywhere round here image

    Good luck tonight Seb!

     

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    x-post!

    Bet she did other training as well?

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Bus, doubles aren't bad, to try and hit 65miles a week or so without them would be a right old strain i think...  10miler is always more taxing than a 6 and a 4 (at the same pace) for instance.

    If i have a day off or a busy saturday i'll probably combine into a shorter single though, as it can be an ask otherwise..

    Bus, she? It's the husband Ben who's the super fasty...like i was saying to her on here yesterday you do wonder what he might have done off 60miles or so a week, but then like she said, he's got to this position without injury or losing interest, so you can't say fairer than that.

    ps Bus..ignoring physio advice...shaky ground old son! I follow their advice to such an ill level, that the last woman when she said to do certain exercises every hour, said wait a min, you're the type who's going to follow this to the letter aren't you image

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    A guy that I mentioned earlier doing 14 something for the Chesham 5K had a go at a half marathon. It was suggested that due to the sheer lack of mileage; as in only around 25 to 30 mpw, the possible outcomes were at best 73 mins plus or walking at some point. He did 68 mins with a couple of 4:50's (which nearly bloody killed me!) chucked in to put off the opposition. It must be speed, the guy could break 25 seconds for 200m as well.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Hang on ric? What times were you doing for halfs? Somewhere in the 68s mixer? Or do you mean a 4.50 for ONE mile would have killed you?

    When was that Chesham 5k by the way? As according tot he paper it hadn't been run for 10years? Presumably it was once a regular course?

    Without being bitter, was slightly galling seeing the race get an obscene amount of coverage for what was a  5k with 70 people in! Reading in 2 or 3 papers about the top 3 when i was 4th image

  • dean richardson 7 wrote (see)
     Message to chingo..we were planning on dragging each other round to a sub 75....its just got very real mate..image

    Im sure you'll do it deano, but im afraid i cant guarantee my participation. Still not running and feeling the groin so dont envisage a return to action anytime soon, Vyrnwy are pretty good at accepting entries if you are reasonably quick - think the 75 marker is just a vague reference point - last year they let me have an elite entry when my pb was 79.59, tho i promised them a 76.** and delivered it.

    Good to see everyone training well(havent read for a month i think!), ive effectively switched sports with this injury....cycled 180 miles last week, planning to purchase a decent racer and do lands end to john o groats on the bike plus 3 peaks in 24 hours whilst im out of actions from the running. Even when im back, i wont be racing for awhile as ive never failed to get a pb for over a year so cant lose that record and it will take a good couple of months to build back up.....lesson certainly learnt about training after a mara, if i ever do a one again i'll be taking 3 weeks off from running after without a doubt!!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Chingo, I've seen and heard a lot of runners be out for ages, and then come back and still perform well..some kind of muscle memory or something!

    I know cycling isn't as taxing on injuries, but sounds like you're undertaking huge levels....any risk with that? I don't know what injuries cyclists get?

    What's the deal with the groin? Is it a tear? Grade 1,2 or 3?  If it's pain it sounds likely? I had months out with a groin strain once, and it wasn't even a tear...After months of discomfort i vowed not to run until it was 100% and set out on the NHS physio route...eventually to be told i needed to actively stretch and carry on running or it'd never heal...

     

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    SG, No, that's what Mr. 68 min man said when describing his race afterwards. I don't think I ever broke 5 mins for a mile, wheras Steve Doig (the 68 min man) did 4:00. Again at least 20 years back. So 4:50 wouldn't have killed me, at that pace I would have been dead long before then. My average half used to be 76/77 mins.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    4.50 within a half marathon is the kind of chat that should be banned from this thread...as we're all utterly pony in comparison...in fact we should have a little window, where if you get too fast, you're off the thread...

    erm..let's make it 1:17:52 for a halfimage

    average 76/77 not bad...pb 75 then? or 74?

    I think it was park run fan on the middle ground who did stacks of halfs at 74/75s and 1 x1hr 12/13or something, and wondered if he'd done less 1hr14s and instead trained more, he might have broken 1hr 12/13?

    prf, if you're lurking, can you confirm on my sketchy memory?

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    I don't think any of the speed merchants I knew can run a yard these days or have done for at least a decade. The candle that burns bright...

    Best half was 73:43 in Battersea Park. One of those Sri Chimoy jobs. Second best was 74:50 at Richmond and third best 75:45 at Hillingdon. The following year I did 80 mins and I've never beaten 80 mins since.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    must be quite hard to keep motivation goingwhen you've been lightning quick...and the training load that must take.

    73 is good..and i get the feeling it's a proper 73, not like a lot of older runners who have a suspect time on a dodgy "Non officially measured course" image

    One guy from my club for example, 60s, has a half pb of 1:16:50..but then has a 5m of 26:xx...that he admits might be a little dodgy!

    you can't have done many halfs since then, as you were mere buttons behind me at Cabbage Patch, and i've done 5 of my last 6 sub 1hr 20, with 2 of them sub 1hr 18

     

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Sorry SG - I thought you meant Ben, but misread the he for she. Didn't ccour to me to wonder who this 30 min 10k lady was - paula?! (doh - re-engage brain Mr Bus!!)

    I agree re doubles as a good way of increasing miles, but weren't you having Dean doing 5 days of them?  The old Chesham results are on the Chiltern Harriers website.

    RicF - I think Steve Doig's range and speed confirms what I said about having bags of natural talent! Impressive half PB by the way...

    Chingo good to hear from you!. The only main danger of cycling injuries I know of is crashing (!), ITB and knee problems. The last two are easily avoided by correct bike set-up....

    Don't worry about Cabbage Patch toilets - I'm sure Dt2 will invite everyone to use his VERY local facilities image

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    cheers all for the advice...looks like i will review the tempo session and some of the paces. 

    Chingo - gutted....my advice is when fit, is to get back into racing and dont worry that early on they will be slower than before this injury.  Im sure you will start flying again after a few sightersimage

  • Stevie seeStevie see ✭✭✭

    SG - nice comeback session. 10K pace is a stinger hey? Always seems a breeze on the plan a week out, then about 10mins before the session it dawns on you how uncomfortable it can be!

    Deano - good news on the entry, don't think I'll be anywhere near you though! Sub 80 is still the goal. Looking back I think I was foolish to have a go at that in Jan and March. Bit early for me really.

    The sessions PP and others have mentioned are really helpful. I'm going to start doing one track (short) and one longer session each week next week. I'm not 100% at the moment due to a calf strain so a bit of an easy week is needed (by that I mean just one race this week image).

    Chingo - have you had professional input about your groin? They must be able to put a timescale on your rehab? Try not to get too despondent, with cycling your fitness is going nowhere.

    Warren, welcome matey, another fast guy to the thread! That's a very impressive upward curve for your marathon times so 2:39 looks to be in the mixer. You look like being to go to guy for mara advice!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Bus...just a little schedule for Dean to look over, as per what I do...not necessarily a guide of what to leap into for him! To be fair, because i did these doubles before M picked me up, it probably made sense to keep things that way, maybe someone who'd only ever done singles would only have had a couple added max.

    Stevie, yep.,..fast feeling. Luckily i'd done a couple of light 5k reps in my own freestyled sessions, as well asthe 5k race, so wasn't as big a shocker as it could have been.

    Dean, good advice on the get back into racing to Chingo..but sometimes, we all know..it can be hard to want to settle for potentially underpar...therefore, maybe an off road, odd distance, or 4 lap inclining 5k ( image) might be in order

    Right..i promise no more mentions of that 5k now...it's time to look to the next one...

    sneaking a 4miler in now..hoping not to miss too much of the czech game...not as important as yesterday;s game in fairness!!

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    The multi storey car park has toilets on the ground floor at Cabbage Patch.

    The cycling I find interesting since at the time of my best races; sub 34 min 10k on successive weekends followed 2 weeks later by the 73 half mara, I was doing a lot of cycling. In a book by Bob Glover he called cycling 'running equivalent' which in simple terms is convert time on wheels into running time in miles. So for me I called seven minutes of biking as one RE mile. I found the best way on a bike was to blast it the whole way.  To give an idea of how much training I was doing at the time:

    44Rm + 24Re = 68m , did 10k race in 33:23 course dodgy though.

    53Rm + 39Re = 92m, did 10k race in 33:45 uncertified course also.

    52Rm + 59Re = 111m

    51Rm + 53Re = 104m, Half Mara in 73:43

    Everything in there, Long runs, speed sessions on track, hours on the bike, diet. My reaction on finishing that half marathon was one of being really pissed off. I was really upset actually. It was a reality check. The one that told me that 'sorry mate, you've just hit the absolute limit of your talent, you are not going to get any better than today.

  • robT wrote (see)
    Stevie knightbridge is where the hotel I normally stay in is a friend gets me a good deal image but I don't know London very well just know it's easy to run to Hyde park from there by the way if anyone fancies a run around Hyde park wednesday afternoon around 3/4 ish I'm staying at the hotel overnight but have a function from 6 and a breakfast meeting at 8 Thursday

    Will be in Hyde Park at 11:30 on the way to a 12;30 race and back thoruigh at 1:30 but can't make it later.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Ric, that's a bizarre feeling to have! What made you think that was definitely it? I do remember in the past thinking certain times were the limit...but now that just looks ridiculous thinking back.

  • SG, you out early Sunday?

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    i sure am big lad.  2hour is the brief, and I've been gently rebuked for going longer than that the last 2 weeks...even if last sunday was a mere 16secs over to get the full 16 image

    16 is pretty long on your own, especially at 7am sunday, so if you're on board i'll be delighted. For 16 we can pretty much (from the Rye) go to Marlow, have a bit of a saunter along the Thames towards Little Marlow/Bourne End, and then up Chapman lane, and then go our separate ways somewhere between Flackwell and Marlow hilll, depending onthe exact reading on the mileage/timer.

    ps Ric, forgot to say, im gutted i missed those toilets...to my shame, i "Created" my own toilet in the footwell outside, and also in the little park outside the carpark image

    ps on my fb, a pal at work has a status about her bloke losing his license through drink driving....something  most of us would want to keep quiet due to the utter shame, and moronic behaviour. Them? They have a photo "celebrating" in the pub.

    image Presumably a 2 year ban is a good result as opposed to jail..and erm...wiping people out on the road, when mashed up on booze.

    ps...judgemental rant over ....as you all were...

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭
    Stevie G . wrote (see)

    ...in fact we should have a little window, where if you get too fast, you're off the thread...

    erm..let's make it 1:17:52 for a halfimage

    I'm still just about OK then ...

    Dean, I'm surprised you haven't already been doing any tempo stuff.  Phil is right, it can be a massive benefit, for halfs but also for 10ks.  I run mine at approximate HM pace, and generally make them long-ish (5-6 miles), although slightly quicker and shorter, possibly broken up into two halves works too.  I really think they made a big difference to me, and, thinking about it, the lack of tempo runs recently (I usually do them on Monday, which means that if I have a Sunday race they often get shelved, and I've had a few recently) may have contributed to slight disappointments recently.

    Chingo - good to see that lack of running hasn't prevented you setting ambitious targets! More importantly, though, do you wear the bandana whilst cycling?

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    Stevie G . wrote (see)

    Ric, that's a bizarre feeling to have! What made you think that was definitely it? I do remember in the past thinking certain times were the limit...but now that just looks ridiculous thinking back.

    I think because in the race I felt I was running much faster than the finish time indicated. It felt like one long sprint but right on the edge of blowing up. I thought I was doing sub 72 min pace at least.  There seemed to be a mix up with the clock but I appear to have started with a 5:45 mile and finished with a 5:30. It was also 80f in the shade too. Sub 35min 10k pace average for the distance. There's a saying in some book that states, 'the past is a foreign country'. In this case the past is another galaxy.

  • Phil no problem don't get into London until 2 so will make my way to Hyde park and chase unsuspecting people who have no idea that they are racing with me around the parkimage

    Managed 3x1k tonight in 3.10's according to Garmin and hammy held up fine image
  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    great session Rob...5k pace for a 15.50...you must be itching to race.  Fast times are coming soon, i predictimage

  • Cheers Dean but felt along way from 15.50 pace as only 3 and 2 mins recovery just pleased able to go at 5.05 mile pace and no repercussions yetimage
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Ric...fair play...i'd hate to go back to say...football playing for example, as i'd be a shadow of how my mind remembered my ability (which i'm guessing would be a fair bit different to my actual level).

    you've done well to stick racing, when it's so black and white and thus inescapable that you were faster back then!

    Rob, fast son fast. I reckon i could take you over 1k image Only 1 rep tho, or i might snap something image

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