Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    Looks like he had a lonely run round the reservoir as well.

    Well done on the PB, Phil.  A quality sub-18, and comfortably enough under 18 to be unconcerned with any of SG's short course shenanigans image.  Re the other chap - it's quite possible to take big chunks out of 5k times purely as the pacing is so difficult to get right I find.  However, you certainly don't get a PB by taking a 5k easy.

    10 x 800 for me tonight,  2:37, 2:39, 2:38, 2:36, 2:33, 2:39, 2:37, 2:38, 2:38, 2:36.  Pleased with both the pace and the consistent nature of those, and that all were sub-2:40 - but no prizes for spotting the one where I was trying to keep up with our top guy.  I may have cheated the 90-second recovery a couple of times by having a slightly longer chat.

    PS SG - are you sure you don't want to start a gang?  I haven't been in a gang since i was 10, but it was fun to ride around on our bikes and solve imaginary mysteries.  Chingo already has a bandana, so that's a good start.

  • SG, my Garmin says 17:52 but Mike read out 49 as I crossed the line so that is what I am betting on will be in the reuslts. I try to run through the line and hit stop afterwards so am usually conservative.

    Re Steve from Marlow Striders, I am sure he said he was 40 seconds slower than his PB and he was off to race a big race on Wednesday night, but for the life of me I can't remember where. I noticed him hit his Garmin lap at the 3km marker before we got to the 1km marker and he said afterwards he didn't start it at the start. Anyhow, he is one of these 30 something guys who can make big improvements for a while till he finds his true level. At his age, 17:30 is only 75% WAVA and 17:00 is 76.8% and he needs to be at 16:16 to match the 80.2% I did. I'm not saying I am better, he has clearly beat me 2 in 2, just saying he has space to improve.

    bus, I don't know what route the parkrun on the Rye will take. I actually kept to that new path, it had some sharp corners on it but felt quite nice to run on. August 4th I am told is the inaugural parkrun there.

    If we are building a gang we need also need a cool name (which can't be SG's boys or indeed any name with SG in it), a secret handshake and the leader is the guy who's mum makes the best snacks.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Can I add another question? Who the hell races a 5k one night, then another the next night?!

    He's one to watch though for sure, and I get the feeling if I put a head to head race off any longer I might be chasing rather than leading image.

    We'll stalk power of 10 likes dogs, and show up super motivated at the right race!

    Dachs, that set of 800s completely wipes the floor with what some of us have done recently, I think so much so that we should stop quoting ours.... faster, more, lower recoveries, less poop stops, sheash!

    How about the Stevie G Movement?

    Sounds kind of profound so we can attract all manner of interest, and maybe take 1% of the press the likes of Sam and Eddie lap up in ever race they do image

    Or even, the way this thread is going, "Stevie G and a bunch of guys who are all faster"

    In fact that could be a rule..you have to beat me either on time or WAVA to get in.image

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭
    Dachs wrote (see)

      Re the other chap - it's quite possible to take big chunks out of 5k times purely as the pacing is so difficult to get right I find.  However, you certainly don't get a PB by taking a 5k easy.

    PS SG - are you sure you don't want to start a gang?  I haven't been in a gang since i was 10, but it was fun to ride around on our bikes and solve imaginary mysteries.  Chingo already has a bandana, so that's a good start.

    I went from 18.09 to 16.27 to 15.57 in my 3 5k races so as dachs says im sure he is just finding his pacing.

    Also i have a draw full of spokey dokeys to go on your bike wheels or for that old school flavour we could use top trumps cards in the spokes held there with a peg to create an authentic motorbike sound whilst yelling the theme tune to Kick Start.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    Stevie G . wrote (see)

     

     

     

    How about the Stevie G Movement?

     

     

    After your latest gut problems does that suggest a lack of ability in the squad?image

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    unfortunately there seems to be too much movement in my..."squad"

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Glad you added the WAVA rule there SG, or I'd have to form my own gang!

    Those 800s are super tasty Dachs. My target at lunch is half the number of reps and about 7 secs per rep slower image. Was building up to 10, but racing Sunday and heavy legs still yesterday so taking it a bit easy.

    I'm going to miss that inaugural Rye parkrun unfortunately....

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Bus, 10x800 at 5k pace just seems bizarre, and probably impossible...think about it. If you can do 5miles at 5k pace, it's pretty likely it isn't your 5k pace...

    Maybe doing everything strictly to paces does take away that "surprise" result in a race though..

    Presumably Dach's 800s were a 10k pace job, which is still tough enough... 5miles at 10k pace...but whilst very tough..still doable (for some image)

    Must be a low 34 on the cards surely..

    ah..it's always lovely talking up others "should dos" isn't it!

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    injury update..decided to stay completely off my feet until monday to let the swelling on my achilles go down.  Will try and get to the gym to cycle/cross train in between...then build up the sessions again to hopefully peak in aug for a pop at 5k PB

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    Spokey dokeys!  Them were the days.

    I dunno how my 800s relate to my 5k pace, as my 5k PB is almost exactly half my 10k PB, and is therefore not much of a PB really.  I just run them at the pace that feels right.  It could be a promising indicator that I did the same session about 6 weeks ago, and they were 4 seconds per rep slower for what felt like the same effort, if not more.  But, it's all irrelevant unless I can translate it to a race performance anyway, and low 34 still seems a bit sharp.  

    Of course, there's always the possibility that I'm lying ...

    Anyway, Rob's training paces put mine well in the shade.

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    On the subject of roving around in a gang on bikes as kids (and not in any way to divert attention from scrutiny of my training paces, honest!), my friends and I once decided that it would be a great idea to empty out some of those tiny modelling paint pots, and rig them up to the rear of our bikes, full of drawing pins.  Therefore, when being pursued by our theoretical enemies, also on bikes, we would pull a string, and the drawing pins would scatter across the road and puncture said enemies' tyres.  I decided that the best way to clear out the hardened paint from the tiny pots would be to hold the pot in one hand, and use the other to violently stab down on it with a pair of scissors, in a movement reminiscent of the 'Psycho' shower scene.  I'm sure you can all imagine how that ended, and I still have the scar from the puncure wound on my hand, as a testament to the stupidity of childhood.

    You can read more stories like that in my forthcoming autobiography ...

  • Dean - sorry to hear you've decided not to race Sunday possibly a wise move but still frustrating I'm sure.

    Phil  - Good PB for 5k I'm sure there is more to come

    Dachs  - my pace may well be slightly quicker but your intensity is brilliant

    I'm not sure if anyone noticed the session I did Tuesday it was designed to keep moving during recovery phase at 8 min mile pace with the aim to slow efforts slightly to help avoid my usual problem of getting carried away with the obsession with speed and injury resulting the effort phase was 2k and the recover 800m. I have now adapted the session a little and would appreciate any thoughts you venerable people have it goes as follows

    effort- pace ,recovery- pace, effort- pace, etc etc

    800m in 2.35ish, 400m in 2 mins - 8 min/mile, 200m in 0.34ish, 200m in 1 min - 8min/mile, 1000m in 3.10ish, 400m in 2 mins, 400m in 73ish, 200m in 1 min and finally 600m in 1.52ish.

    This equate to 3k of effort and 1.2k at 8min/mile pace effort time for 3k would be 9.24ish I would then have a 5 min break and repeat!!

    This may sound complicated but it keeps me focused image

    Comments really are appreciated

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Sorry Rob, we missed it...probably mostly my fault for taking the thread to random non related situations...although luckily Dachs is a kindred spirit in doing similar things.

    Good to spice things up some non running chat occasionally, if only to cheese off the 100s of lurkers who never contribute yet soak all the collective "genius" up. image

    I remember one guy posted once furiously demanding the "concise" training plan i work to, without the dating, footy and general chat littering this forum. what a darn cheek.

     

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    rob - my first observation is the ratio of recovery time to running time. ignoring the final 600m as you get 5min rest straight after,  the remainder of the running is roughly that of the recovery. If you are getting that much recovery i would have thought the strategy would be to up the pace.Those paces seem, to a man of your capability, close to what you would do off 60/90 sec recovery.

    BUT.... looking at them closer, the running times are in line with your 5k pb. eg.the 1000m in 3,10 to give a 15.50.  So having said all the above it looks about right.image

    BUT (again!) will your mojo be raised by running with more recovery than you are used to and slower reps. It might mentally feel like you are training to hold your ground rather than find 15 more secs.  If that makes any sense.

  • Dean see what your saying maybe need to speed jog recovery ie cover 400 in 90-110secs ie 6/7 min miles

    If you look at paces 800 could be tweaked to 2.30 to start off harder and 600 to 1.48 to finish faster and 1000 to 3.08 (5 min miles) I would prob leave 400 and 200 pace as previous and 200 recov at 1 min

    The idea is to never really give myself a chance to hit sub 30 sec 200m pace as just too tired and with continuous running at a steady pace breathing never really regulates fully before next effort

    Hope this makes sense please comment as you think thanks
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    I notice the discussion about recovery times as regards 1000's and 600's. Found Dave Moorcrofts training log from around his 5000m world record. He was doing 1000's in 2:29 and 600's in 83/84 seconds. He did 5 or 6 of each but the recoveries were long. 6:30 for the 1000's and 4:30 for the 600's. For him it was 3000m and 1500m pace. I tried the pattern myself and found I could maintain a really good average. Off a two minute recovery I'd have to run the 1000's about 7% slower.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Not surprised Ric...if you told me i could do a 1k rep, and then recover for 2 1/4 the time...things become a lot more comfortable even at a higher pace!

    Surely the whole idea these days is that you recover for as short a period as you can that will allow good rep uptake, as in a race you don't get to sit about for however long.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    SG, I think that the idea (with Moorcroft) was to train separate energy systems without encroaching other areas. Certainly one of Frank Horwills quotes was 'remember, in a race you get no recovery', but that can lead to rubbish sessions being dished up where the only thing being trained is pain. 

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    All about the balance isn't it Ric.

    I could do some quality 5min mile reps....if you gave me 12hours in between image

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    The odd thing is that would probably work. On speedwork, I dug out this on using 200m as the distance. For 10,000m runners it was 25 x 200m in 35 seconds each with 30 seconds recovery, for 800m runners it was 4 x 200m in 26 seconds each with 3 minute recovery.  Same distance, different energy system being trained. If there is one danger its going too fast for the recovery allowed. I could labour on but in one case its the limit of aerobic capacity, the other anaerobic. The long reps with long recovery is something else in turn. As is long reps with short recovery. Its multi layered and like a piece of ply-wood, when stuck together, a superior product.

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    rob - I can't quite get my head round that session (it's been along day!) but the overall balance looks good.

    Dachs - love the paint pot story. I did something simialr myself trying to make a model sptifire look like it had been in a crash using a very sharp Swiss army knife - crikey there was a lot of blood!

    Changed my session today as tight for time and wanted  a bit of variation, so went for 4 x 1k at 5k (ish) pace with 90 sec rec, 2M warmup and 1.5M warm down. Splits came out uneven, as they were either slightly uphill or slightly donwhill as 3:37, 3:31, 3:36, 3;29. All reasonably comfortable though, except the 2nd uphill rep was a bit hard as I started too slow and had to make up time.

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    Rob - i think the new paces you mention are right.  slightly faster over the longer but keep the sprints the same. Whilst you can push out faster 200 reps the balance between benefit and injury risk is weighted against if you go for sub 30.  Tempted to try this session myself! image

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    dean richardson 7 wrote (see)
     

    I went from 18.09 to 16.27 to 15.57 in my 3 5k races so as dachs says im sure he is just finding his pacing.

     

    i forgot to ask at the time, but what time scale was it from the 18.09 to 15.57? That's about a year or more right?

    This guy down here has taken 30secs off twice in about 7-8weeks.

    The equivalent would be you going down to 15:27 a few weeks after that 15:57 image

  • robt, session looks fine but it is really a case of what you want out of it. There are so many ways to juggle distance, speed, recovery and numbers that just about anything is possible. I do find that I like to stick to a few sessions so I can get some comparison over time. I find a few core sessions in a cycle don't come up so often they get boring. So tomorrow with SG it is 10x400m and the last time I did that session I did 81,78,81,78,77,77,76,76,77,77 for an average of 77.8. That was with about 2 minutes recovery. I think SG wants to do them at 5k pace so let's say 84 so I need to do them off between 30 and 60 seconds recovery. 

    SG, 5:30 pm, crossing outside the cinema?

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭
    Stevie G . wrote (see)
     

    i forgot to ask at the time, but what time scale was it from the 18.09 to 15.57? That's about a year or more right?

    This guy down here has taken 30secs off twice in about 7-8weeks.

    The equivalent would be you going down to 15:27 a few weeks after that 15:57 image

    the 18.09 was on a hilly park run in jan, the 16.27 was mid May on the track then the 15.57 was a fortnight later on the road.     Mind you on the road i had Stevie See yelling at me to get going for a sprint finish.image

  • Stevie seeStevie see ✭✭✭

    Rob - I have no experience of that kind of session so my input is minimal apart from maybe your longest rep of 1000 is a tad slow? Your 3k pace is circa 3:05 isn't it?

    Dach - that 800 session is eye watering. Nice work. That's can't be your 5k pace if you've knocked out 5 miles worth!

    Yesterday was a 5.5 easy one. Today was 16 x 200m (off 45 seconds) all banged out in 36... all of them bar the last one in 32. Felt ridiculously easy, no lactic or heavy legs. I'm putting it down to the fact is was pouring down and we were covered in mud and rain, which made it strangely refreshing and fun. Rest day now.

    Deano - so are you officially out of the Stone 10k? Hmmmm, I'm not convinced it's a good idea for me to run it. I'm feeling very positive about running now I'm settling into a pattern of consistent training.

    Oh and Peral Jam were amazing last night! image

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    stevie S - do you know much about the ribble valley 10k.  Looks like a top class field, probably better than trafford.   Im assuming its flat?

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    whilst still stirling stuff Dean, at least you had a 6month period for that! This chap, well i think some drugs testing might need carrying out image

  • Stevie seeStevie see ✭✭✭

    I haven't done it (I intend to this year) but I know lots who have. It's not your typical 'fast' course but fast times are posted there. This is partly due to the high quality field, it always hosts the north of England 10k champs. It very gently undulates I'm told, but like I said I know lots who's PB's have been set there despite running Trafford. You considering it?

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    SS- yes, considering it.  Defn planning on doing telford 10k earlier in dec. it was my first race since training more structured and will represent a yr in racing so will be good to get a delta and see on the same course for improvement. 

    telford is a superb course if you are searching for a winter pb

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