Moraghan Training - Stevie G



  • Stevie seeStevie see ✭✭✭

    Winter wise I'm aiming at the Leeds Abbey dash in November (ridiculously fast!), the Ribble Valley. The Telford 10k is on my list of possibilities. But I'm 'going dark' road race wise over the winter, as I'm giving this whole 'base training' a go. I'll pop a race every 4/5 weeks or so and will be aiming towards being sharp by Feb/March for the usual fast races.

    RE base training does anybody any book/article recommendations about successful/well structured base training? I'd like to read around it before embarking on it with half baked ideas.

  • Stevie see wrote (see)

    RE base training does anybody any book/article recommendations about successful/well structured base training? I'd like to read around it before embarking on it with half baked ideas.

    Stevie, base is really the easy bit, it is the peaking (how often, how hard) that is hard. Noakes is pretty good if you can face 1000 pages but it covers pretty much everything and explains why things are done rather than telling you what to do. Once you know why, it is easier to adjust rather than blindly follow a programme.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Philip_M_Jones wrote (see)
    rather than blindly follow a programme.


  • WoolWool ✭✭✭

    I can't watch you agonize any further SG without popping in. Concensus at the Dashers tonight was that HX 5k was 60 - 80m short.

    As you have pointed out this matches the Maidenhead course well which coincidentally is up next (and still serves as my PB course!).

    Apologies for the interruption. As you were.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭


    Thanks for taking time out from the Elite Training Cru Wool image

    That's an annoying yet fairly substantial distance over 5k, as that could comfortably be 12-15secs worth...glad I didn't race it!

    Burnham and Wargrave generally race safe, but where you have an open field, with random activities on, or where they've made changes to the field, there's always that risk.

    Datchet for years was always long, despite the protests that it wasn't...but 10-15secs slower was always evidence enough...

    Maidenhead has had 3 different courses in the 4 times I've done it...really can't be 100% about the course in 2010, only thing to do is to try and beat that...which might be possible if we had any fast 5ks down here image

  • A favourite session of mine when ultra training is 10 x 1 km off 2 mins recovery. In feb I did this session at 3.17 average but only managed 34.29 in my next 10km race. I think some people may just be able to recover quicker during the recoveries so can go at a more intense pace for longer. In other news I seem to have buggered my knee again so it's time to do some swimming for a few weeks again. Good luck for weekend races guys.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    those would be some super fast reps for that length of time Warren. Maybe the ultra training slowed you, as I can't imagine you can run an optimum 10k off what I presume was massive gruelling mileage?

  • Hmmm, SG I think you may have a point there. The previous 6 weeks leading up to that race averaged 85 miles with the sequence of Sunday runs going 25 miles, 35 miles, 26 miles, 31 miles, 20 miles & 31 miles. That may also have something to do with why I am now crocked with a bum knee....

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    warren - my knees ache just reading those miles image  Hope it recovers quickly

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Home fixture of Met Summer League. 10k on probably the worst road course around, and I was the one who designed it. The course used to be two laps starting and finishing in a park but due to traffic problems at several junctions the choice was change the course or lose the fixture. Changing to three laps avoided crossing the mouths of any road apart from cul de sacs but now has a total of 25 right angled changes of direction. This year there's even more due to road works. So that's 31 then. Great! 

    As for training, average of 10 miles a day for last 27 days. This week has become the first since February where I can wind the pace right up without the niggle complaining about it. 

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    it's funny, when i hear 70miles a week, i think yeah that's a good mileage week. But when you think about it and think 10miles a day, it sounds a right old schedule!

    The long defunct Hillingdon 5miler pops into my head after reading that Ric. Starting on an incredibly busy road, even erly sunday morning, meant that the twice I ran it, an apoplectic small bald guy would beckon everyone to "quickly" get to the start, yet would go utterly apespit at anyone who went onto the actual road too soon.

    Then you had about 30secs to get on the road at his request and then the race would be off.


  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    SG, I think I know the guy you've mentioned. He had a go at me one year because I parked my car near to the finish to see the leading runners arrive. He was getting going until my passenger hopped out and declared that it was in fact her that told me to put the car where I did. That was OK then. Being National Cross Champion from the previous week gets you away with some things.

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Knees ! Mine was hurting this morning again. Also still feeling very jaded. Hope to bounce back for Sundays 7 miler, but after next week will be tapering for Wycombe.

    Last of this years cows are back too - some very curious/aggressive ones in a field I have to go through twice each time a do my doubles, not helped by them not yet being used to people.

    This'll make you laugh - a guy on BFP website comments this morning saying he could do the Penn 7 (miles) in 31:12!!

    That Hillingdon start sounds a bit like how they used to do Bearbrook. Now they start on the field which means a slightly dodgy sprint oveer some banked up grass and a very tight gravelly trun in the first 50m!

    270 miles in 20 days is good going Ric...

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    Bus - that chap was clearly running in the olden days you hear so much about, when anyone running slower than a 33 minute 10k would be laughed out of their club, and the only reason people were running even that slowly is because they were weighed down by their moustaches.

    Nice 1ks yesterday, by the way.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Bus, was that the world record holder writing on the BFP site?

    Even then the maths seems unlikely, as the world record on the track for 10k is just under call it 27 for a road course, they'd have to do the last 0.8miles in 4:12....

    not to mention it's a hilly job...

    clearly blagger some fat oaf i used to know who casually reckoned he coulddo 100m in 12seconds...I'd wager 20 would be tight...

    My little spell of 2 singles in 3 days is timed well...busy as heck at work...meaning tonight's 9/10ish including 10x400 will be nice. Phil's coming for the ride unless something's changed.

    Phil...can we edit the meeting place to the cinema? that's where i park..slightly less dodgy then meeting outside the girls school!

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Thanks Dachs. I always thought he moustache look was to prevent moisture loss given they neveer used to drink either!

    I think  he must have thought it was 7k - that works out at a much more comfortbale 7:12 pace. Even so, no reason one to slag people off who would tak an hour!

    Careful SG - that cinema car-park is well known to Stan Collymore....

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Never been one to slag off slow runners just the ones who claim to be runners but only exercise their mouths. I worked alongside a guy who must have overheard my interest in running and was inclined to tell me that he ran this, that and the other. This ramped up after I declared I'd got second in the Harrow marathon (behind Finill) but came to an embarrassing end when the results were produced. I'm not sure who was most surprised, he; who discovered that I really was a runner and had really run a marathon, or me, who realised that he assumed I was making it all up like he was. 

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Can get round to writing up the track session after that Germany thrashing! Closer to winning the work fantasy league after my nearest rival's key man Gomez didn't come on until 78minutes with the game over, and his german defender even cost him points! Lovely.

    Anyway, as a treat I had Phil along for some company. 3miles warm up, then I dropped a bit of a bomb on Phil with a MP mile, which in fairness was probably coming out a step up from MP for Phil...which probably didn't help...Then 1/2mile with strides...

    and finally to the track!

    10x400m at 5k pace. Always like the sound of such sessions, as short and sharp. My 5k pace for such a session should be around 80/81 taking in the "bit quicker than current pb/level approach".

    I think the mixture of no headphones for once, and Phil just behind set me off way too quick. I was expecting the watch to say around 40 for 200 on the first one, but instead showed 33...with even a big calming still came out as 72 first 400m.

     Although 2nd rep slowed, it was still too fast. But not a bad thing, as they seemed to be reasonably consistent


    60sec recovery, although spot the one in the middle that accidentally came out as 70secs...was obviously not fully concentrating as i would if on my own image

    Good session, no problems niggles or other...only my 2nd run in 3days...which has worked really well with a very busy last 3 working for a relaxed 4m x 2 tomorrow, and a 16 sunday.

    Definitely must make more use of Phil and Bus being so local to combine sessions, really does make it a whole lot more enjoyable...

    Frank, if you're lurking in the mixer somewhere, open invitation to you sometime too...

    ps Phil, just clocked Steve's 5k...17:31!   I think he can only count that in the same way as I count my Maidenhead 2010 "17:10"

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Good session that SG. My immediate thought though is that the 400s came out very consistently, which suggest they were comfortable despite beinge 3 secs below target. Is your target pace too low then?  I'd be aiming for 1:20s on 400s, though maybe less reps at the mo...

    As for me - two short doubles today of 5.5M xc each way. Tired legs and the evening session was just pants! Very slow and lethargic. I'd have been much beter off with a rest day instead. Oh well, at least it helps me set up the target to satisfy my round number OCD for the week!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    I think what ALD said ages back rings a bit true sometimes, with 400s because it's such a short distance, it's quite hard to keep to your designated 5k pace...

    The average out of that little lot is 77....which per mile is 77x4+2secs for the extra 9metres... = 5:10 pace.

    I wouldn't be running 5:10 pace for a 5k.

    For my probably target of 16:59, that's 5:28 a mile, so a pace of 1:21 a lap is probably about right for that'd be slightly quicker than the 5:28 needed.

    For your 17:29 aim, you need 5:38 pace, so 1.23/1.24 is probably the 5k pace..

    that said...400s are hard to actually keep it down to 5k will generally come out ahead...


    disclaimer...figures are used for flat road 5k racing...and not for 4 lappers with mini hills, or short grass courses image

    ps Bus, 2x5.5mile off road sounds quite demanding, no wonder you're shattered...were those commute runs or something? Otherwise maybe shorten one of those badboys...take it a bit easier on yourself!!

  • Nice session with SG, had to stop at 7 of the 10: 5k pace hopeful for me is 17:30 which is 85 a lap and times were 82, 83, 83, 82, 79, 82, 84 and it was feeling like the 84 was just the start of a slow down so better to walk away with 7 good ones than push it: been a busy week with 64 miles in 6 days and my right foot is moaning a bit and all indications are plantar fasciatus so rest is indicated but I will give it suck and see. Think it is all down to bad posture (makes one leg longer than the other which aggravates my right foot) so really need to strengthen the core so do the plank, sit on a Swiss ball and have energetic sex with a young partner.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    image  Ooooh matron!

    Again it clearly sounds like Bus, Phil and myself need a road trip somewhere for a road flat target 5k...shame those Dorney ones seem to only be Jan to March as those would be ideal.

  • May look at Watford open meetings,

    3000m on the track, good and official, Wed 25th July.

    Other than that it is Hyde Park or Battersea Park mid week and lunch or evening.

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Careful there Philip - all this talk of meeting in car parks and sex with young partners will get people talking!  PF can be a problem though. I found rolling the foot on a bottle twice a day really helped and quite quickly.

    I'd need another mortgage to do any of those Dorney 5ks!

    Fair enough re the 400s SG. Yep, the doubles are a commute, so 5.5M is the shortest possible, but I did them at a really easy pace (9 min mile for the 2nd one!). Next week will also be my last full week for a while, so will get some proper rest for Risborough 10k and Wycombe. I did intend tapering for Sunday, but then realised with a bit of jiggery pokery I could make 7 weeks in a row of 50+ miles, without a long run this week. I hadn't reckoned with the lingering, cumulative effects of last weeks race, pacey 16 miler and possibly some effect from that footie match! Just as well it's not an A race!

    Talking of niggles, I'm still having problems with metatarsalgia in my left foot. When I wake up, it feels like a lump in my foot and is tender. After walking about a bit though it vanishes, and it is never sore when running, and only occasionally afterwards - weird. My strategy is to ignore it unless it gets worse and hope it just goes over time.


  • SG/Phil good 400 session (Phil wise to bale out at 7 and feel you've done a strong session than to continue and walk away frustrated)

    First race since early April 13.9k Tattenhall Tough Team Challange (they say 9 mile but it wasn't) we won image came individual 2nd in race but means nothing as we were a team we won by nearly 6 mins this is not a combined diff but the Gap diff between our last counter and next team's last counter, 3 very tough hills one road and 2 off road last one impossible to run 2nd half just too steep (for me anyway) calfs cramped at top of third hill took it easy for 400m and they came back to life!! most pleasing part of race was 1) I survived and 2) covered 3 k between 11-13 in 10.10 and felt strong. Now feeling motivated to plan some racing image

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Phil, might have to check one of those London type 5ks out myself one day. I did the last Friday of the month one years's just a lil awkward tho.

    Bus, I've had touches of metartalsagia over the last few months. When I've seen physios, oesteos and docs about the main hip niggle, and told them about that though, none seem too concerned at all, so I guess it's not too serious a thing...certainly less serious than plantar fasciitis...Phil, extreme caution needed with that one i feel...

    I suppose, the nature of metatarsalgia, is that its a localised small little area behind one of the toes, so often when you run, you don't actually land on the bad can ease it by putting an insole in there, or by running more off road.

    You can tell you've got it, but pulling the toe above the ache upwards...senstivity means that's what it is.

    Plantar fascittis on the other hand is the main bit of your foot, the bit that lands every single footstep, aches like hell in the morning, and you can feel it every time you land.. I've only had it a couple of times for a day or 2...and found resting, and stretching the plantar is key. They say rolling a golf ball under your foot too...but i think that's easy to dotoo hard and make it worse!

    Bus...the physio who last looked at me did a test on me. Standing on my right leg and bending the knee, it goes down straight over the foot. On the left leg though, the knee skews out to the right. The left foot supinates so much more....

    to correct this, i have to do a few of these each day forcing the knee over the foot instead...not sure if this is anything that is relevant to you, but hopefully seems to be easing the metatarsalgia, as well as icing it when it's sore. Like you it never seems to be much of a problem even when running hard...

    Rob, nice race, i thought you were resting up? Clearly don't need to though, doing hilly course jobs!

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    great racing Rob, maybe there is a fell runner ready to escape once you get too old for all the fast stuff image  where and when is the assault on the 5k PB due? 

    PMJ - taking the cold facts of all reps were quicker than target (assuming you were aiming at 85s), were a bit wobbley regards consistancy and you didnt complete the session...i wonder what comment you would make if they were posted by somebody else?    sounds like you were either enjoying yourself too much on the back a high mileage week, effected by SGs faster pace or there were good looking women there image

    SG - good consistancy with yours. Nice session

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    there was a blonde lady walking in lane 1 with headphones on Dean...but that was more irritating then arousing image

  • Nice result there rob. Was there any plan to try and run as a team and get the last one over the line as quickly as possible? The slow 5k I did a few weeks ago was a comeback tester for one of our fast guys (4:06 miler at his best) and at 3k he pulled alongside me and said "just  6 minutes to go, keep up with me" and it was helpful just to have that person alongside for a while, even if 3 per km was never going to happen.

    Dean, absolutely right, mind wasn't really with the session so all the stuff I would normally do I didn't do so I didn't have my watch on lap-time and I had an "eat as much as you like Chinese" at lunch and my normal session is on my own with my rules and it was odd (but nice) to have SG round. Having said that, running is about having fun and people are welcome to take or ignore my comments. I want true comments and not platitudes. Still trying to find a decent pace for the 10x400s, last time I did them in 78 with 200 walk/jog (which worked out at about 90 to 120 seconds) , yesterday was off 60 recovery so the 82 was probably a fair target, though 85 is 5k pace but maybe that would have been too easy.

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