Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭

    Ric, true.

    I tend work to a bit of a plan like below

    • any level of rain or coldness     train no question
    • lots of snow                               reduce volume and mileage, but generally still do doubles. long run do on time rather than mileage
    • ice/snow                                   as above but limit to parks with XC shoes.

    speedwork is pretty much out if there's any real snow about.

    Johnas, in terms of the Wycombe end of Bucks, Monday was pretty snowy, but didn't settle too much, and by Tuesday was 100% perfect roads.

    Is still bitterly cold, but hopefully that's us done....

    it better be, there's races afoot! It's all well and good smashing a xc here and there, but without road times to quantify it it's a wasted opportunity!

     

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Plenty of snow forecast over the weekend unfortunately at the moment, though may turn to rain. The past few years when we've had snow the running/train combo has often been the only way to get to work, so it tends to be xc doubles every other day with working at home in between with a lunchtime xc in the snow for good measure! I like running in the snow, but the novelty does wear off, especially when it is wet and slushy. Mind you, all the extra work can make it all seem very easy when normal running resumes!

    I think doing a "Richard Brown" says more about the fact that we don't tend to take proper breaks unless they are forced on us than it does about the weather! 

     

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Just notice, my earlier reply to Johnas post hasn't appeared! Anyway waht I said was:

    Thanks - though no long run at the weekend, which is nice!

    I find riding a bike a few miles a good way to ease tired muscles, and its sometimes amazing how you can still ride a bike after something like a marathon, becuase of the subtle differnce in muscles used.

     

    I also said similar to SG about the snow, though I wouldn't say 100% clear up here in Hazlemere, certainly not for the pavements where there has been a bit of thawing then re-freezing. My own road is always in the shade, and is also in a bit of a frost hollow where cold air sinks, so it can still be icy long after everywhere else has defrosted. I've measured the temperature in my back garden as low as an almost unbelievable -18C back in the big freeze of 2009/10! We had over a foot of snow in the garden for over three weeks!

     

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭

    It probably says it all, that my first thought when Ric mentioned a "Richard Brown", was some kind of pit stop image

  • 14 miles XC midweek Bus! Nice work, good to get it in now incase the weather permits LSRs at the weekend. I tidy little 10 miles for me tonight. God only knows what will happen to the intended training session tomorrow, don't fancy another session on the grass!

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭
    Much as doing a Richard Brown is eminently sensible, I spend nearly 15 years finding excuses not to run - it was too cold, too hot, too wet, too windy, I was too hungover - so I didn't. It makes me very reluctant to not run because of the conditions, cos I don't want to go back to that.



    Our track escaped ice tonight, so did 20 x 400 with the club. Recoveries started at 75 seconds, then reduced every 5 reps, ending up at 35 seconds. Times were 73, 75, 74, 75, 74, 72, 73, 74, 72, 73, 74, 75, 74, 74, 74, 74, 75, 75, 76, 76. Average of 74 seconds, so pleased with the pace despite the inevitable fall off at the end. So, a Kenyan marathon pace session...
  • ML84ML84 ✭✭✭
    Great run Bus. Same goes for you Stevie. I 'managed' 7.5 today at just over 7 min mile. It felt like I was trying to run 5 min miles. image no snow on the roads in sunny lancashire.
  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭
    Good run by Bus, a midweek 14 has to stand you in good stead for wokingham. Sounds an enjoyable one too.



    Sounds like SS may have finally shaken that illness, which is good to hear.
  • JohnasJohnas ✭✭✭

    fookin hell Dachs! I need a lie down after reading that monster session. awesome job!

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Cheers guys. It was a nice run, but don't forget it was just the re-scheduled weekend LSR so don't read too much itno it being midweek! Likewise though, good to get a 10 under the belt Stevie.

    Dachs, that is a seriously impressive session! I've only ever managed 10 reps even at that distance (well NAD at 1/4M), a good 5 secs per rep slower and with more recovery! As for consistency, a 3 sec drop-off over that many reps with a decreasing recovery is nothiing. (take your point re the Kenyan marathon pace though!!). Certainly can't say you ducked out with excuses for that one!   I guess doing it as a club session helps with the motivation to keep going, but even so, that is some effort! Another one that makes me think I might work a bit harder if there was some peer pressure at my quality sessions though...

  • Dachs, that's a beast session. I did one of those last summer, but my reps were 84s all the way off 45 recovery. What pace does 75 equate to for you? I was always told this was a 10k session but running 400 @10k pace always seems a doddle.

    Illness have been shaken, still a bit of coughing, especially late at night after a run but no other nastiness going on.

    Having seen what each group is doing tomorrow, looks like a road/hill session with a nice long WU (3 miles) to the meeting point then the session is a mile from home... perfect for a WD. Hills are my friends... hills are my friends... image

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Yeah, but with with friends like that....

    (glad the lergy is virtually gone SS!)

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭

    Wow, Dachs, frustration coming out in that session image

    Amazing session! You're looking bang on to justify you being my forum tip of 2013!

    IN Phil's absence, let's analyse it  (hope you're ok by the way Phil!)

    16-20 x 400 is generally a 10k paced session.

    When I did 16x400 ages back, it was at 10k current pace, so mine came out 1:24 I think, off 60secs. I then pretty much came out that pace in my next 10k.

    If Dachs, can hold 5miles worth of 5min miling pace, with shortening recoveries, then the next 10k race seems pretty darm promising.

    I know some of you chaps tend to smash your 400s rather than do them to zones like me, but in my experience, I find the recoveries are countered out by the race adrenaline, and I generally get the time in the race of the reps...

    I guess it's not that simple when you're gunning each rep...otherwise you'd be looking at 31min 10king!

    (i know we've debated this before!)

     

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    Stevie S - at a guess, I'd be looking at that as being target 3K pace, but I've never run a 3K, so couldn't be entirely sure.

    SG - had it been a 10K pace session, I would definitely have reigned it in a bit.  There are most certainly no 31 minute 10Ks on the horizon!  I just ran to the pace that I thought I could complete the session.

    I think there are a few things at play - firstly, I seem to be fortunate enough to be able to recover quite quickly off reps, so my rep times don't necessarily translate to sustained efforts in races as well as others.  Secondly, I enjoy the track sessions - it's often the only time in the week that I'm not running on my own (although there was no-one pulling me along last night) - so that is maybe reflected in how I approach them.

    SG, I also think that you may underestimate how many 400s you could probably smash out at a similar pace if you were minded to - after all, as you say, you haven't trained like that for some time.  But each to their own, and the only thing that counts is race results.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭

    Pretty valid points I think Dachs. I've certainly been conditioned to train in a certain way this last couple of years. I guess the old me was more a "smasher" though I wasn't serious enough to time anything back then.

    One session with Frankie's club (Frankie where are you by the way old son!), is a great example.

    Teams of 3, 150metre ish rep, you smash one at max pace, rest while your 2 pals in your team do theirs, and then off again. 10 in a set, 2min recovery, 10more.

    Legs were utterly dead for days after that....it makes my legs hurt thinking about that these days.

    The real benefit of your pace is that even if you went and did a really short race you'd probably find the pace a stroll image

    Half marathon you'll barely feel like you're moving...

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭

    unsuprisingly im with dachs on this as i like to blast around the track too.  If you can run that pace, with no recovery issues in future days, then why not?  train fast to race fast image

    you mention Frankies session there and i agree that doesnt sound like a smart session as you had recovery issues which impacted on training.  but were your legs dead because you werent use to training at that intensity, so maybe the session was fine just not for you as you werent used to those zones.

    i wonder if i ran the "right" paces in training would i have the race times i had in 2012?  Is the fact i push the track harder than i should allowed me to make the step up each time. Of course i would improve anyway as im still on the early improvement curve but would my times have been slower to date?

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    I don't think many of us around here would turn our noses up at running a half marathon at 84 seconds per 400m pace.

     

    🙂

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭

    Dean, it's impossible to say if your improvement would have been as rapid unless you cloned yourself and kept all factors bar training methods the same.

    Like you say you're still on your early running career improvement curve. To some extent anything will improve you, unless you get injured. You got your training fairly professional early on, whereas Bus, me and others did any old iron for years.

    It's when you hit that plateau zone that you might need to consider a change in plan, like I had to....the very premise for this thread! image

    ps the intensity of that sesh with Frankie's lot was "maximum speed". Bearing in mind i was also still involved in footy back then, and used to sprinting, and it still took that out of me, I can only imagine what it'd be like now image

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    It is an interesting one about pace zones. I tend to do my short intervals far faster than 10k pace. It does seem logical to do sshort reps faster than race pace, if only to make race pace seem more comfortable! Unfortunately for me though there's been no rapid improvement in race times to justify it image. Equally, SG, the appraoch of training at the pace you are aiming for seems sensible. I guess its horses for courses though and both approaches seem to be producing the results for you guys whihc is all that matters really!

    Changed my mind about a rest day today, as the legs seemed OK and it might be the last time for a while I can hit the pavements, so went for a tempo. Not a big session, but OK as an extra run, with 5.1M completed at 6:30 pace overall, with the middle 3.75 being the tempo bit at an average 6:05. A bit off the 6 I was targeting, but not surprising given 1M was slightly uphill and my legs weren't exactly fresh after yesterday!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭

    Bus, don't forget I'll have 3k and 5k pace sessions fairly regularly, when I don't aim to race at those distance. So the angle of racing faster than target distance is well covered.

    It's just that one of the principles of my training is you don't do further distance in reps than the pace zone you're running at. so only 2 1/2miles at 5k pace,  etc

    bus, brave doing tempo the day after a long xc, especially given the scare last week! However, good pace reached, especially off no real warm up. Was time tight? Sat is still on for me, if roads are fine, and if your wife did do the kids run!

    6 at lunch, nothing too special, around 7.08 pace. could feel the hip gently, but I guess until it needs to stop me, I'll press on and massively strengthen each day. Like Stevie See said the other day, it's funny how you don't feel these minor things in a race at all. When it's just you and there's nothing else to think about that's when you feel them

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭
    The Bus wrote (see)

    It is an interesting one about pace zones. I tend to do my short intervals far faster than 10k pace. It does seem logical to do sshort reps faster than race pace, if only to make race pace seem more comfortable!

    this this this!

    The Bus wrote (see)

     Equally, SG, the appraoch of training at the pace you are aiming for seems sensible.

    oh! but this this this too!

    for me i go over race pace for short stuff for the reason Bus gives but for longer reps i will try to run at race pace. My training before telford was mind numbingly similar every week you may remember, mile reps @ 5.20 pace.  this was purely to give me confidence and get used to trotting out my target pace for that race so it became familiar

    That looks a tasty session Bus, how are you feeling about wokingham?  signs look promising from afarimage

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    Bus, that's a really good pace given the circumstances.

    When I first joined the club and ran under a different coach more geared towards beginners, I ran the reps at actual 10K pace, as per his instructions.  However, I used to end some of them feeling far too fresh for my liking.  Having said that, I was improving then as well, so who knows who's right.  I do know that running short reps like 400s at 1:22-1:23 pace (i.e. 10K PB pace) would feel incredibly slow.

    I also have doubts about whether it would be much benefit to get used to the feel of race pace by running on the track.  When doing reps/intervals, 10K pace on the track feels quite a lot easier than 10K pace on the road does.  When I do reps on the road I do try to do them at 10K race pace, because it feels the same effort level (and I also use the same course as one of the local 10K's, so it's excellent practice for that particular race).

    Not that I know anything about physiology, but if pushed to guess, I would have thought that the train fast to run fast approach advocated by Dean would be even more applicable to those on a plateau, who have more than enough practice at running at their race pace - that's the problem!  But clearly, as shown by SG recently, the pace zone approach is working.

    Anyway, my total ignorance in these matters is why I generally just shut up and follow the coach's sessions...

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Mixed feelings Dean to be honest! I'm behind where I wanted to be, as I was really hoping to get in some long tempos at close to target HMP for a bit of a confidence booster, as well as some long progression runs. 

    All I've got to go on at the moment is the Great South Run result and a 10k in Dec. I hope that I've not lost anything since then but its been a bit of a mixed bag of largely unfocussed training ever since! If today had come out as 4M at sub 6 pace with effort to spare that'd be one thing, but it was hard work, albeit with reason.  Last week's bizarre, but short-lived, injury cost me the first long tempo, and the weather has meant some changed plans this week but lets see how the next two weeks end up!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭

    I think the bit that's getting lost a little is that if I'm targetting 10k and halfs, doing 3-5k and then 10k pace IS actually doing reps quicker than the target race pace.

    You then also have times where you're getting used to doing the race pace in question for longer volumes.

    So I don't think we're as massively different in philosophy as it appears.

    The bit that is different is the volume at the faster paces.

    Dachs, you did 5miles or so yesterday, at what is probably not even your 3k pace, whereas i'd probably limit a 3k session to something like 8x300 ie 2,400metres total.

    It certainly is hard to do say 10x400s at 5k pace as they feel very slow, but I'd disagree that 16x400 at 10k pace is a doss...it's not a killer but it's slowly dawns on you

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    The Bus wrote (see)

    Mixed feelings Dean to be honest! I'm behind where I wanted to be, as I was really hoping to get in some long tempos at close to target HMP for a bit of a confidence booster, as well as some long progression runs. 

    All I've got to go on at the moment is the Great South Run result and a 10k in Dec. I hope that I've not lost anything since then but its been a bit of a mixed bag of largely unfocussed training ever since! If today had come out as 4M at sub 6 pace with effort to spare that'd be one thing, but it was hard work, albeit with reason.  Last week's bizarre, but short-lived, injury cost me the first long tempo, and the weather has meant some changed plans this week but lets see how the next two weeks end up!

    make saturday happen son. that'll be a good tempo for you, and with good company (ish!)image

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭

    Why, who else is coming ?image Trouble is, we're gonna be under a foot of snow by Saturday! On the plus side, my son's footie will almost certainly be cancelled...

    Perhaps a pacey XC sesh if you can get up the hill to Hazlemere?

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Dean doing 5:20's for practise pace seems logical to me. A question of tempo and balance. Co-ordination training.

    My experience of training with a group of guys on the track and on the road is that none of them ever trained at race pace.

    On the road there was effort but still slower than they'd race at over 10k to half marathon.

    On the track they ran at a faster pace than they'd ever do their races at.

    The idea of running at a particular pace for less than maximum distance struck them as ludicrous. Why do a 400m in 84 seconds when you can do 67 seconds?

    Sub 74 mins for a half marathon! Would you bother practising 84 seconds for 400m?

    Its a point that plenty of runners only feel they've acheived anything if they are wiped out.

    🙂

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭

    that's of course what races are for Ric image

    I haven't trained with anyone quicker since I can even remember. Good job, as otherwise i'd end up doing their training not my own!

    Bus, let's see how the weather pans out. Was gently snowing on my 4miler just then.

    I think we could do the easy, steady, MP 4mile sections better offroad than I could have done Tuesdays 6xHMP to Steady segments, as this is a progression rather than constant ups and downs in pace. They'd be crazily demanding off road.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭✭
    RicF wrote (see)

    Sub 74 mins for a half marathon! Would you bother practising 84

    That would be crazy, as noone would do 400 reps at HMP?

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Rob Denmark used to do his 400's in 62 seconds. 5000m pb 13:08, so not so off pace.

    A 48 minute 10 mile runner called Kevin Macdonald (Hillingdon AC) said that practising actual race pace always seems a bit of a waste of time. But if you realise the purpose is about co-ordination at optimum pace then not so.

    I don't go quite that far but I'll do repeat 200's at 7% faster than I expect to race at over the 30 minutes it takes for the session, ie 30 x 200m.

    🙂

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