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Moraghan Training - Stevie G
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Are you going to Portugal with 209 events for a training camp or is it a proper holiday??
Johnas, not sure about pacing you round, I strongly suspect you would be ahead of me.
Right, so my news is that I seem to have developed the exact same injury in my other foot that kept me out for a few weeks last autumn. Didn't cause any pain to run on last night (in fact I didn't notice it), and not exactly that painful this morning, but it's the exact same telltale creaking noise when I point my foot that I had last time.
The good thing is that, unlike last time, having identified it pretty much immediately, I won't aggravate it by continuing to try to run through it, and instead will just stick to the ibuprofen/rest/stretching I was set last time round, and hopefully it will be gone by Eastleigh, and the rest will have stood me in good stead a la Ric. Reading Half looks like a DNS though.
Sh*t.
SG, the motivation to race has become almost non existent.
I think that the discomfort of running at full speed and pre race nerves has a lot to do with it.
But there was also the issue of proving a point about not over doing things if running well for several years is your aim.
The landscape has changed. Twenty years ago there were at least 50 runners around my age, in my area who were much faster runners than I ever would be.
Even then I saw training methods that were high octane, high risk stuff. It got results but was risky and IMO had no long term future. I said as much at the time and recieved the 'dog pack' retort 'that we're faster than you mate', 'how can we be wrong?'.
Of those 50 runners now. Of the one's still running, I can beat all but one.
A feature of their demise was quite often an inability to deal with injuries. Their minds were set on effort, effort and more effort. Recovery, re-habilition and conditioning were considered a waste of time.
As a result, the first injury they got that stopped them running, subsequently became the injury that finished them as runners entirely.
I think I've proved the point as regards longevity.
I'm within a whisker of retirement.
🙂
wise words Ric, apart from the last line. You aint going anywhere sunshine, there's a job needed doing on here!
It's easier to fall into that "fastesr the runner" the better their methods thing isn't it. But in reality they might simply have way more potential, and are only scraping at it through their methods. I can think of at least one local massive over racer, who seems to come out medium good for results 7/8 weeks in a row rather than one quality performance every 6weeks for instance.
Johnas, wow, Dachs has set you a benchmark there, he was running 1:14:xx at Wokingham, so that's your target
Unless he was meaning that he wouldn't be racing flat out at Reading which I think might have been his gist.
Dachs, hope that your early noticing of the "signs" of injury means you can nip it in the bud now. If it means you have to sack off Reading to both run well at Eastleigh, as well as not have a period out of the game, then I'm sure you'd agreed that's a small price to pay. However, you might find you're fine for it anyway.
Racing another half hard a few weeks after a big pb performance is a tough angle though...
Sorry to derail the chat guys, just want to pick up on a comment Ric made to me yesterday regarding my injury.
Ric – thanks for the reply. I am aware of the whole fast twitch / slow twitch phenomenon where once slow twitch muscles get tired, fast twitch muscles get recruited to help out with the load. This is useful to know when Marathon training I think, run hard one day then run long the next etc….
What I am not sure is, how does that relate to my injury? Why would my hamstrings ache behind the knee after a couple of miles having taken a few days recovery? Why then would one set of muscles feel tired when rested, especially considering the training load they would be used to?
Would some kind of muscle damage be the more likely cause of the ache?
I think the DNS is the actual gist
YD, no worries on derailing pal! You should contribute more on here I feel, as pretty much everyone is in and around your current level, and there's a wealth of guys on here with similar targets to yourself including the marathon!
Johnas, if you can find a perfect pacing group like I did at Wokingham, you could have a stonker. Fingers crossed.
right, off for a nice 10miler round Marlow. I always do the route one direction, so apart from the first mile that I can't change, I'll go and do the reverse for variety.
My gist re Johnas is that I think that, if he runs all out at Reading, could run a very good time indeed. His shiny new 5K PB is equal to mine, and he does seem to have had a tendency to convert well to longer distances in the past. On that basis, I would not have ruled out him being ahead of me even if I ran flat out.
Sorry, Johnas, sure you don't want to be bigged up before the event, but that was my implication before.
Welcome to YD by the way. Stick around. We have lost too many flat-capped northerners recently, and need some kind of North/South balance back.
cheers and you're right SG. Really excited but also really not sure what im capable of. That 5k we did has kind of thrown things for me. Hopefully I can settle into a steady rythm quickly, stick with it for 10 miles then try and crank it up for the last 5k. Not sure what that steady pace is though - will have to play it by ear like at Dulwich. I'd love to beat the 2 quickest guys at my club so far this year who have clocked a 76:15 and a 76:22 - that'd ruffle a few feathers
EDIT - x-post. cheers Dachs. Don't like hype but appreciate the sentiments and just hope i can convert! The group thing will be important i feel hence why it'd have been great to have a run with you. I think, unless you can be assured you're niggle free, a DNS is the best option to give Eastleigh a beasting. You've done what you set out to do at HM distance and exciting times ahead for you at the 10k
Bad luck Dachs. Hopefully the early intervention will do the trick. Never easy to take a DNS though.
YD -are you sure the hamstring pain is musculature? If resting it isn't helping then maybe it is tendonitis?
Thanks Stevie and Dachs, and yes there is a certain element of the real north (Yorkshire in case you are wondering
) missing from the thread.
BUS – not considered tendonitis, I was just going by what the physio advised. Though I am seeing him on Monday and will make the suggestion. Though forgive my lack of knowledge, but I would’ve thought tendonitis requires rest and ice?
YD, Why I mentioned muscle recruitment wasn't about differentiating between fast and slow twitch muscle fibres.
I assumed it was muscle damage.
I mentioned it as a an attempt to explain how muscles react and feel when healing.
The dull ache you mentioned which comes on after a couple of miles sounds like a classic sign of the healing process. The feeling should last as long as the rest of the run. As long as you avoid sharp pain then ok.
In the normal course of events, the dull ache will appear later and later in the run and at a lesser intensity when it does. One day you'll run out of road before it appears.
A torn muscle makes a right mess. Bits of scar tissue and the like. The fall-out of injuries tend not to just disappear like a mild illness.
Its one reason why resting alone doesn't quite work. And why physios exist.
🙂
Asked by the club if I wanted to run the Bupa 10k. Seemed a bit churlish to turn down a probable front pen slot so I allowed my arm to be twisted.
Seems that PO10 has its uses after all. Rankings and all that.
My club has a few speed merchants but they don't run road races, so as far as PO10 is concerned, they belong at the back.
Put myself down for a 35:45.
🙂
Funny you should mention that race Ric, my lot have offered the same. Might well do it. Looks quite an exciting course, loads of London sightseeing. Well, if you can sight see at 10k pace!
Johnas, 16.35 is the same Wava as a 1.15.41 from Howard Grubb, so off that logic you should have a 1.15.35 or so in you
But yes, we're being bastads hyping you up.
I did the BUPA 10K as part of the RRR team last year. Great day out, free entry, got to hang out and change in the same building as Farah, Overall etc, run by the moustachioed bloke who greets the elites when they finish VLM. Heartily recommend it. They forgot to give us any water after the event though, just sent us straight back to the "elite" area. And we had to clamber back over the fence and walk through the finish with the 60 minute runners in order to pick up our goody bags. We were supposed to have them by the way, we weren't just trying to blag them...
Apparently a RRR team may be in the offing again this year. I'll wait to see if I make the grade.
yes. yes you are.
Some big prizes for the teams, think it was £2000 to the first team, and still £200 for the 6th team.
But bearing in mind the top team had 3 runners under 30.20, getting into the top 10 teams would be a huge achievement!
Looked a terrific standard though, but you'd expect that from the National 10k championships!
I think I counted 12-14 women quicker than my pb, whereas Chichester for comparison had 2. And that's a good standard race in itself.
Looks pretty quality all round. Will make sure good bags and water are included though!
Yes, we came 23rd or something in the men's team competition (3 to score), and we actually fielded one or two of our big hitters for once (not referring to myself of course). The women's team did much better, 6th or something from memory, but then RRR does tend to have a really strong women's team.
A word on the course - it was a hot day last year, so that slowed people, but even taking that into account I don't think it's as quick as other flat courses - a far amount of twists and turns round that middle section. I ran 35:16 (gun time, you don't get chip times from the champs start) after 34:48 at Woodley a couple of weeks before, despite feeling at the time like I'd run pretty well.
Awesome finish past parliament and down the Mall though!
Ric – interesting comments, thanks, I do kind of agree on the rest thing, it seems to be rare that resting is the answer with mild niggles aches and what not. As for torn muscle making a right mess, physio agrees, had my hamstring been torn I wouldn’t be able to run on it.
. I will refrain from predicting a time for you as I am a Johnny come lately and don’t really know your background, but if I were to make a prediction, I reckon you are good for a feather ruffling 
In my case, the issue has been around for over three weeks now. It came after quite a big session on the Sunday (18m w/ 2 x 5m @ MP) done on tired legs.
I took the Monday off as a normal rest day and then as I felt plenty stiffness in the legs I just ran easy on the Tuesday and the same on the Wednesday. The issue had developed and got worse, so I took a couple more days off, did plenty strengthening work (glutes, quads, calfs etc) and got back to it, feeling like I could carry on with short easy runs, I did just that. However, the pain got worse into the next week, the more I ran on it the more pain I would feel on the next days run and earlier and earlier into the run. Hence the visit to the physio.
He diagnosed the issue as hip inflexibility, imbalance in muscle strength and a lack of firing glutes, particularly in the left problem leg. After a second visit he said that I need to rest for five days to a week (5 days is today) to give the damage in the hamstring time to repair. He thinks the damage is most likely some kind of overuse damage in the hamstring exacerbated by the glute / hip thing, it has been brought on as a result of the increase in mileage this year. I hope he is right because not running is frustrating.
Jonas – if fellow thread members cant hype you up there no point in posting
Ah YD, hip and glute issues eh? Join my world, the world that has me doing 2 or 3 15min sections a day loosening and strengthening them!
You're right on Jonas, brief background, back in our earlier days I held about a 12 - 0 sequence over him. He went to Kent, got good, and took 20secs out of me at 5k a week or 2 back.
Now, my half marathon to 5k equivalent on that Howard Grubb scale comes out 16.35, and he did 16.33, so in theory a quicker half should be forth coming on paper, especially as we all presume on past evidence that the longer the better the transition for Johnas.
I'll shut up now Jonas
Dachs, sounds top notch all round really. Especially as I was watching the Olympic marathon on that same finish. Will be an epic ending!
I expect the heat if what I've heard from others took a chunk off you, so hopefully the twists aren't too...twisty on the day!
I had considered Silverstone 10k, but as that was jammed in amongst other events, this looks perfect a couple of weeks on.
YD, The overuse injury I should remember, is obviously one to rest on. Seeing how an activity caused the problem its difficult to see how the same activity will cure it.
Had the same injury as you once and by the same process. To start with, just one tiny twinge. The next day, felt for a yard. The day after that, for the length of the road. Then for the whole run and feeling it afterwards.
Six weeks of no running but 1000's of squats later, I ran a couple of training runs and then did a 10k race (to close out a league). I limped away from that one but I must have healed up since the soreness went after a few days.
Lucky to get away with it!
🙂
think i forgot to mention today's main run. 10miles easy, nice offroader, 1hr 11 job.
Funny how the easy pace has just got to this level, even off road, into wind with a couple of hills. Encouraging.
Now is the time to be really careful SG,
If you look at your training volumes and compare them with say 6 months ago, you may find that you are averaging 100% plus for weeks on end.
From week to week the loading may go up and down to allow for recovery, which seems reasonable enough.
However, if you take a much bigger step back and look at the loading over 18 months you will find that the loading has actually increased in an almost linear fashion.
This is the loading gradient to be wary of. It usually gets missed, especially when the results are coming in.
Very much a case of getting lost in the detail.
🙂
I understood none of this!
Johnas - the Portugal trip is with my running club, so a nice mix of 14yr olds to 30 yr olds!
Busy today!
Damn - quotes don't seem to be working, like everything else on this RW site!
Anyway, YD - I say that, as that's what my shysio told me yesterday - that tendons don't heal proeperly by themselves with rest. They need a bit of stimulation as well as ice etc, but he aslo said its a balancing act and the stimulation should be very low intensity and duration running. If your physio has diagnosed a muscle problme though, I'm sure he knows what he's talking about.
Oh - seems they are! Just not when actually posting
Ss, that' ok.
I do.
🙂
Bus, loads of things aren't working we way we like them to on the forum.
My favourite insert images for a start.
How's day one of recovery going?
🙂
ric, i kind of get what you mean, but you don't need to worry.
Last year versus this year in totals... first 10 weeks, (thus excluding the 37miles monday to wednesday this week)
2012 68,67,65,70.5,55,70.5,57,55,79.5,77,
2013 67,54.5,62.5,63.5,51.5,53,53,69,56,61.5
2012 total 664
2013 total 591.5
Incidenally, that 664 10week total was then followed by a 45.5, 30.5, 17.5, 30, 43,41 sequence when the hip first caused problems. Although only a few actual full rest days were needed, clearly the doubles and longer runs became singles, and reduced mileage.