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SuperSix Project
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Well said, Rowan!
And that was exactly the point.
wa a sports pyschologist involved this year?
i can think of at least one super sixer who would have hugely benefited from such input
Well said Hipps, we've been saying exactly that in the wall of e-mails that have been flying backwards and forwards between us all since Sunday. Present tense, though, IMHO in coping with the aftermath and this seemingly endless post-mortem..
Five of the super six succeeded, but try telling them that. It only takes one nasty comment from a complete ignoramus (not on this thread) to get completely under the wire.
All five of them who were (relatively) uninjured and able to run on Sunday gave it everything they had and more. Some were dealt a rough hand on the day that was completely outside their control. Did they stop and throw in the towel? No, they battled on in pain/throwing up/hyperventilating. Would they have done that without the super six pressure? Well, probably yes given the determination of the people involved, but to go through all that and then feel that they've let people down because it took longer than it would if things have been different? It's not right.
To be clear - no one is suggesting that any of the 6 `failed'. What is being called into question is the preparation and training schedule - particularly at the faster end. IMHO JBFAR was not given the correct preparation pre-thread and her training lacked the clear structure and philosophy that I read about on MM's thread (can't comment on the others as I did not follow them).
I did not start this thread to talk about fast / slow runners or who puts more into running than anyone else. It is about the super six project and how weaknesses that have become apparent this year can be addressed.
The schedules seem to have some flaws where the slow one week is faster than a brisk the next week............these points get brought up most years no doubt but they seem to be unable to adjust the schedules......is there a longterm contract to use them as they are????????????
also on the sub 4:30 schedule the first week of taper drops a massive 3 miles...........I think most of the coaches would state that less than 10% is not the start of a taper for those at that pace.yet the schedule remains unchanged.........
I think its lazy to keep on turning out the same schedule year in year out..............not sure why they have feedback and then not change anything.........
Andy did well to get his time and he did take time out because he was cautious about getting injured this being his first marathon................but from his half times and his running speeds in the first few weeks it was obvious to everyone that a sub 4:00 was well in his grasp..............but he did really well to keep going and perform on the day......
and they all did there best on the day....London is never the ideal place to get a PB..............
maybe they should do this but with a diffrent marathon.but then its about money and london is where the marketing money is....
Seren - good points.
Hashette - another good point. Does the project end on 25th April or is there some support in coming to terms with how things went on the day? A coach in a club would not abandon a runner after one race. Do any of you have any pointers on where to go from here?
Another thought re the psychological aspects that Hippo and you raise...
Would it be fair to say that it's at both ends of the spectrum where that support is most needed? Often the faster runners put pressure on themselves to hit certain times and become quite competitive with themselves, rivals or the clock. At the slower end, from what I have read, people sometimes feel more in need of encouragement as they also have weight / health issues. Those in the middle range seem to be comfortable with the training and themselves, with a feel good factor coming through.
BR - Of course I can only speak from my own experience here but I ran Edinburgh 5 weeks after London last year and Liz coached me through that period too. That had nothing to do with Runners World though - that was an offer of help from Liz herself.
Sue C - were you paying for her coaching at that point?
I've found this thread very interesting. I don't really have much to offer that hasn't already been said. However, as JBFAR's and MM's threads are the ones I followed most closely they are what I can relate to. I was very disappointed for JBFAR at the level of support her thread generated compared to MM's. I'm not sure if this was down to personalities as MM is very analytical.
As a female who was also looking for a similar time to JBFAR the advice on that thread was nothing more than I could have read in a book and I'm sorry as nice as Paul obviously is I don't feel he provided her with enough analysis of her training and if I were being coached on there I would have expected far more.
Anyhow, lets hope that RW, having read everyone's views on this thread make the project a much better one for the athletes chosen next year.
We finished the race and then went to the post race reception where we were given food, drink, massage, shower and then a presentation to all the runners who ran under the auspices of "Team Lucozade". We gave a post race interview to camera (now on FB) and to Catherine from RW for inclusion in next month's RW. The five of us who ran the race were presented with a memento and an expensive bottle of champers.
However, having been wrapped up for 5 months in the whole experience the whole mechanism stops very abruptly when you leave the reception. There's nothing afterwards: the threads gently die off, the contact with your mentor stops,etc.
This is what I was trying to allude to with the Big Brother analogy: you're so engulfed in the whole goldfish bowl scenario it can be hard to deal with when you're spat out afterwards. Thankfully, the 6 of us have been providing mutual post-race support via e-mails which has helped. I went down to my running club on Weds night and had a couple of pints with my clubmates which also helped to deal with the big comedown. It's possibly the reason why I'm posting so much on this thread - it's a way of dealing with the abrupt ending of it all.
Personally I think a better way would be for the 6 of us to go back down to London the week after London so we could all do a proper sign-off together in the same way we had a proper meet and greet back in December. Due to the fact we finished at different times I only got to see JBFAR at the reception and it would have been nice to see and congratulate all 5 of us who finished.
I'd already entered local races to do in the post-VLM period to provide a focus for me afterwards and I have every intention to utilise the post marathon fitness to break some shorter distance PB's but then my year does have some structure being a club runner.
Hilly - the answer to your question is no, not at that point - the possibility of a longer term coaching contract had not been raised.
Slugsta - MM and myself do have contact outside of RW, not sure what help I have been able to offer other than an understanding of the post SSX experience though!
MM - glad to have provided the thread for your catharsis then
. Seriously, from what you say some `closure' is required and would make a decent feature for the magazine anyway. It would be interesting to read some of the points raised on here being put into an article as we could learn from the analysis. But does rational analysis sell magazines?
I follwed the slower three threads and I found them a huge encouragement in my marathon prep. As a first-timer I had no idea what to expect eiter of the experience or the day itself and I picked up a lot of advice form the SuperSixers and others. However I agree that the idea of putting people into groups like sub-5 isn't realistic until much later in the process. I think this may have added to the pressure. My HM times predicted me a sub-5 finish but I knew that my mileage was a bit on the low side and so my club coach suggested I aimed for 5:30ish based on Hal Higdon's 5*10Ktime+30mins for a first timer formula and that was pretty much spot on for me. I think the problem certainly with EP's sub 5 thread was that if you take the logic that to get a sub 5 the best way to run is even paced and so that's about 11:20-11:25 min miles I felt that she was being asked to start at that pace even when her race times didn't indicate that a sub-5 was realistic. She expressed doubts herself about getting the sub 5 but whereas I as an ordinary forumite was able to adjust my pace I felt that Kim "had" to be seen to be going for the sub 5, even though for her aiming for a slower time would probably have got her a PB and possibly made the whole running experiece a bit less uncomfortable. Surely it's sensible to give somebody a target based on say a recent HM time rahter than say "you're our sub-5 runner, that's your rigid, inflexible goal"? Or am I missing something here?
It would be great if RW provided a commitment to provide this.
ITFACThinking blue-sky and considering various factors like
one might be tempted to open up the project to be a two-stage affair. It would start much as it does now - but after London it would then go on to a 2nd round where each runner's performance, strengths and weaknesses were analyzed, and they each picked an autumn marathon and were given more personalised guidance in the build-up to that.
That would be absolutely brilliant if they could do it Fido.
I just wanted to come back on a point someone made about slower runners maybe needing help with weight issues. While it's true for many of us plodders, many of us dislike the idea that we run to loose weight just as much as others dislike people assuming every race they do is to raise money for charity. And one thing that has come out very strongly on Lucy's thread is that marathon training is NOT the time to be worrying about weight. Healthy eating fine. Chasing yet another number target definitely not fine.
If there is a special need for slow runners I'd say it's more to do with the emotional side of being at the tail end of a race, especially London Mara. Lucy hasn't commented on this really, but a couple of us on her thread have been talking about it. MarathonMummy has said it felt like she'd missed the party all round. Banners being taken down, lucozade/goody bags running out, showers turned off, time mats taken up, sweeps vehicles (including the dreaded red line cleaner) chasing you, being moved off the road to dodge tourists along embankment, no free tube home....
I was thinking about the debrief thing. If a meeting the weekend following is not on, maybe it would be better to hold the debrief later, say 7pm, so that people can meet familly first, and can meet all together. And include Sunday night in a hotel in the package.
There are loads of people who get a place at London and start training in the autumn. By December they're looking round online for training schedules and advice. And then they find the RW marathon training schedules and the forums here.
From the comments of lots of people, you'd think it was a sure-fire receipe for disaster. Yet it can work. In January 2007 I started training for London having got a charity place, and gradually built up my running to an easy 20mpw. I went straight into the RW-sub-3:30 plan at 40mpw (max of 53) and followed it to the letter, and joined the forums here. I ran 3:15. There wasn't a super six that year, if there ahd been I'd have followed it with avid interest. Instead I started lurking in the sub-3:30 forum and then posting there, before moving to sub-3 in the summer of 2007.
I followed the RW sub-3:15 plan for my next marathon and ran 3:12. Then the RW sub-3 plan, and although I only ran 3:04, I was pretty ill at the time. Then I switched over to P&D plans because I wanted a change, and they made a lot of sense to me, and have reached a PB of 2:51.
So it can be done - and every year there are thousands of people like me who want to run London. I think the super six programme is mainly of benefit for them - not the guinea pigs. And this is where some of the critics are wrong - it isn't about a competition to win a year of personalised coaching - it's a framework to pass on some targeted advice to a whole bunch of people following a training schedule and worrying about preparation, injury, nutrition, hydration, warm-up races etc.
And some of us will then hang around a while....
Nb it was the runners themselves who gave their initial targets, they weren't forced into trying to run times they shouldn't have done and the runners themselves (well probably 4 of the remaining 5) wanted to try and achieve the targets even on race day.
Last year I offered (free) help to continue assisting those I mentored and the offer is there to Andy and Kim (or the others if Paul and Liz are too busy) and one of those mentored from a half-marathon in the past has been in touch but most possibly feel uncomfortable about asking for more help but shouldn't do.
I understand RW are reviewing and have asked mentors for feedback and i'm sure have asked the runners too.
Thanks Steve and yes, we are currently gathering feedback from all involved in order to help us evaluate the service we offered this year and our approach going forward.
Many valid points have been made here on this thread - we'll be sure to take them all on board when we have the necessary discussions.
Thanks
Catherine
hello
Re psychology input, well, i also meant during the training
BR is corrrect when he says this can be an issue for runners at both end of the spectrum
I have known Evil Pixie via these forums for, oh, about eight years almost, we used to be very sinilar in running times
Now she, by her own admission, gets very emotional about her running, and it has on more than one occasion sodded up a race for her.She also says she lacks self beleif
If she could have had some specific help with that, things might have been very different
teh marathon(and perhaps for some, particularly VLM) throws up all sorts of pyschological issues which can seriously affect a race on the day.
I might have done a few mararhons now, but i still get the bloody gremlins in my head telling me i am too slow, too fat, i shouldnt be there as i am not a "real runner"
Id go so far as to say that my head is now holding me back more than my body/training lack is!
I think pyschological input , for some of us, is extremely important
I would LOVE to see this continued into an Autumn marathon, by the way
And, Rowan, spot on!
I ran my first 50 mararthons a good 3 stone overweight
Not all of us run purely to lose weight
Hilly,
I started at 10.10 and the course is worked out on 7 hours from 9.45. Consequently I was racing the red line cleaner and the tractors for a long time at the beginning of the race, because they start cleaning up pretty much straight away. That's the downside of being honest and starting at the back of pen 9, I guess.
I was aiming for 5:30 but I was ill the night before and took 6:59. I'd spent a year preparing for the London Marathon and I was running it in memory of my dad, with £2000 worth of sponsorship, a blog, newspaper and magazine articles and a feature on the BBC all weighing on me.
I'm bloody proud of myself for carrying on and completing the marathon. I've no idea what a LDWA event is, which leads me to believe that I'd have struggled to raise so much money for charity if I'd done one.
Hilly, according to the marathon magazine you'll recieve a medal at the end up to 8 hours after the start. It's not unreasonable to expect to be able to complete the course in anything up to that time. Besides, I didn't actually say that I didn't expect them to start packing up before that time (I think there is a warning in the mag that you may be moved off the road, so fair enough really), but that doesn't mean it's a pleasant experience if you find yourself in that zone.
I think very few people set out intending to do a 7 hour plus marathon. Most people will find themselves in that zone unexpectedly, for whatever reason. The course being packed up around you is an extra factor that it takes guts to overcome and finish, when possibly you've already got other problems to deal with.
It wasn't unreasonable that it wasn't covered, since it wasn't expected (unreasonably or not...) that any of the sixers would be in that zone. My point was more that it would be more useful to give suport on that than weight loss, since, as it happened, it turned out to be relavant to a few folks on the thread.
This year I managed to stay largely ahead of the 'wave of destruction', though only just by the sound of it. I experienced banners being taken down and showers being turned off as I was running towards them. My first FLM though I was with the sweep vehicles most of the way, no showers, no later splits etc. First year I really didn't have a clue how fast I'd be. This year from my training I don't think it was unreasonable for me to hope I'd be half an hour quicker than I was, maybe more. As for many people it didn't happen on the day, in spite of pushing myself to the point of nausea much of the way round.
Ok, this is what was said in February issue of RW about the Lucozade Sport Super Six.
"Back in November, we teamed up with RW to launch a nationwide search for six rw.co.uk users. The Prize? The opportunity to be part of an exclusive VLM 2010 team and receive the same level of mentoring and nutritional support as top-flight athletes. We were overwhelmed by the responses we received - more than 2,400 of you pitched us your reasons for deserving this unbeatable prize, from nervous first-timers to fleet-footed frontrunners. Now we're delighted to both introduce our final line-up (as voted by you, the rw.co.uk community) and invite you to join them on their journey. You don't even need to be targeting a marathon: our LS Super Six 2010 are representative of a full range of abilities and will race across a variety of distances in the months ahead. Whatever your training goals,
log on to runnersworld.co.uk/lucozadesportsupersix2010 to follow their progress, swap tips with
other runners and receive your own expert guidance on training and nutrition from our panel of experts."
Then it goes on.
"Training to a schedule isn't just for the time-pushed. Following a programme will help you build your fitness progressively and is a great way to know you're on a tried-and-tested route to reaching your race-day goal. Structured sessions can also do wonders for your motivation: you'll be less likely to skip a workout if it's aleady in your diary. Over the course of the next four months, our team will be using the rw.co.uk 16-week marathon schedules. Under the beady eye of three top mentors - GB Olympic athlete Liz Yelling, former Chicago Marathon winner Paul Evans and experienced club coach, Steve Smythe - they will be learning how to make the plans work best according to their individual goals and lifestyles. Stay tuned to discover how to adapt the rw.co.uk programmes to suit your own strengths and weaknesses, how to maximise the rewards of quality sessions, and, most importantly, how to be flexible when other commitments (such as work and family) threaten to throw training off track."
So that's what the project is all about.