The Middle Ground



  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Come back and tell us how you did @Dr.Dan

    Got a 10 miler in this morning at 7.55mm, harder than easy but didn't feel like hard work until near the end when I upped the speed for the last couple of miles.  Looking good for my HM in next month.
  • Great sounding run there JGav.

    Long (sort of) run this afternoon- 6 miles at about 8:50m/m. Was surprisingly warm out there. Hope it has cooled down by the time I’m racing in 2 weeks!
  • Nice miles JGav and Andrew.

    1 mile race yesterday was 16s slower than last year ... my last lap was 18s slower than last year!

    21 miles today. 4 weeks to go!

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    comparably bad outcome for me today. set off at sub 83 pace but it very soon felt laboured. At 4 miles I was seriously considering walking off the course as we returned to city centre. Decided to bash on and got to 9 miles about 45 seconds down on last year but was stumbling on empty.  Not going to be a pb but still on for a reasonable time as course profile went down hill. However I just couldn't accelerate. I had nothing in me and was like running through mud. By 11 miles i just knocked it on head and plodded last 2 miles coming in for 86.59. 

    Just the 3.5 minutes slower than 2 weeks ago!! It leaves me irrationally  questioning my whole fitness but then I can't have lost that much in two weeks!!!
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Tiredness / fueling / stress / over-training
    @DT19 take your pick, the one thing its not is losing fitness.
  • DT - your fitness is fine! You may just have not recovered from 2 weeks ago ... and that may have just tipped you into the red zone when you set off at 83 pace. Problem with HMs is that it's so easy to over - cook it without reaslising - how far off your tempo pace is 6:20/mi?

    Comparison of my stats from last 2 years of The Golden Mile tack race.

    This year... 6:09.5

    409m 1:28.1 138/161 bpm
    400m 1:29.9 162/167
    400m 1:35.2 163/165
    400m 1:35.3 163/165

    Last year... 5:53.8

    409m 1:30.9 145/165 bpm
    400m 1:31.3 166/169
    400m 1:33.6 167/170
    400m 1:17.3 171/173

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Dr Dan, so have your hr zones moved a bit or were you not suffering enough?

    Re my tempo pace, which one do you refer to? My staple one is at 6.45 pace. I don't really do many other tempo runs at the moment, however when I do a 'mid tempo' run it is usually in the region of 6.20mm.

    Part of my issue is that I have focused very much on mara specific training I have lost touch a bit with other tempo zones and usually race often enough to get the hard work in that way. 

  • Reason as asked about tempo pace was that it's supposed to be the pace you can maintain for an hour ... somewhere between 10Kp and HMp... and I find it's uncomfortably close to HMp. I can easily drift into running at that pace if I'm not focused enough, and of course it leads to 6 miles of pure misery at the end of a HM.

    RE HR zones...  I find when I'm properly run-fit, I can access the higher zones more easily. This year 163 bpm on lap 3 was tough whereas last year 167 bpm was comfortable.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    ah right. I believe that my threshold pace according to McMillan and based on my last half is 6.15 which is very close to the range of paces for a half. I was targeting 6.20 as overall average but was working to 6.15-6.20 with first 3 miles being 6.15, 6.16 and 6.19 so perhaps I just dipped a little too far in and if it's a day when you are not quite 100% it can no doubt trouble you more than a day when everything else is good and you get away with it.

    Yes the reason I asked that is because I cant quite seem to tap into higher hr's. So whilst I am still running equivalent or faster times for a lower hr I don't seem to be able to suffer like I used to, to take full advantage by accessing higher values. I have sort of put this down to my focus on mara training and not hurting myself in training like I did 2-3 years ago.

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Do you guys see Kipchoge's marathon time?!  Equivalent to a 14min 5k, just 8 of them back to back and with a 2.2k sprint finish  :open_mouth:

    Easy 5 at lunch for me, 8.30mm.  Still can't seem to keep my HR down in zone 2 according to Garmin.
  •  JGav - it's mind-blowing isn't it?! What also amazes me is how slow is still looks - for example, the first few laps of most Olympic 10,000m finals look positively pedestrian, but they are probably still running around 4.30-5m/m pace.

    Makes me wonder how plodding I must look to an onlooker!!

    DT - just sounds like a bad day at the office, for whatever reason.

  • Running 105 consecutive 400m faster than I can run one. Mind blowing!

    Andrew ... watching the track mile races was interesting. Some of the faster heats look pedestrian even when clock 5:XX times.

    DT - agree. I think the interval sessions for shorter distances really help with that. Do you still do  a lot of spin classes? I imaging they help too.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Dr Dan, I do still do spin, however with my mileage where it now is, I treat it more as a high tempo/quasi recovery session. I simply can't hammer it like I used to.

    5 at recovery yesterday, same planned today. I still feel drained internally. Think I'm heading for a 3 week taper instead of the usual 2!

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Spin schmin.  Triathlon is where it's really at!
  • Although I've cycled over 2000 miles this year, hardly any of it has been high intensity. I do think hard turbo/spin classes would be a great way of hammering up lactate tolerance without the injury risks (for me) of high-speed running (lactate tolerance is supposed to be independent of training discipline, so bike can help running ... unlike aerobic development which is more specific to the muscle fibres being utilised). My last two injuries have both come from when I decided to train for 5k/10K times rather than marathons... maybe I should maintain the marathon-type training but throw in more bike intensity.
  • Has anyone got a series of decent interval sessions that they can recommend? I need something to do one session a week for the next 8 weeks or so?

    Another short morning run today, it sounds stupid but it is taking some getting used to running in the morning. I definitely feel better running in the afternoon/evening.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    I tend to just make intervals up, Andrew with my usual's being 400, 800s, 1k or 1 mile. I'll then also do various pyramids just to mix the paces. I don't work at that type of effort often though, preferring to make my main sessions up from a mp session and another tempo such as hmp.

    My experience of people that take up triathlon, jgav is that they start off with running, cant quite make a mark so decide to blur the lines by concentrating on all 3. They never then seem to improve their running. No offence is of course intended, it is just the people I know tend to have reached a point with running where they have taken all the initial easy gains and need to up their work but choose to divert.

    Still struggling with my mojo/recovery and the windy weather has not helped my decision making. meant to be an mp session today but ended up with 3 at easy. Still on for this being a big mileage week before my taper starts, there just wont be much quality by the looks.

  • Andrew ... I've done these during 10K specific training once a week with 5K/3mi of "work". So, 12 x 400m, or 6 x 800, or 3 x 1 mile, or mix up with variations (e.g. 2 x 400, 2x600,1x800,2x600,2x400), etc. Usually 90s rests or 400m jogs as recoveries. Start with shorter distances/more reps and increase to longer distances/less reps. Pace should be a bit faster than 5Kp given you're doing 5K but with rests (although for some reason that's much harder than it should be).
  • Or you could do 200m reps in 34.6 seconds ... try doing 211 of them. If Kipchoge can do it without a rest, then surely it's easy with those 90s recoveries. :-)
  • Thanks both - that's given me some ideas. I think I'll start on Friday with something like 8 x 400 and then work up the volume from there.

    It does seem quite windy out there today (not as bad here as I expect it is further up north), hopefully it won't make my tempo session tonight a slogfest (3 miles of tempo within a 5 miler).

  • In the late 70s I did some work with an exercise physiologist at Leeds Carnegie (think his name was John Humphries). Well, he did the scientific work and I was just a guinea pig athlete. The conclusion to his work, in short, was that the best way to train for 5k/10k would be to have two main "sessions": the short and the long(ish). The short was 30 seconds at 90% or thereabouts effort, with 90 seconds static recovery. The long was 3 minutes, with 90 seconds jog recovery. At the time these fairly neatly fitted with 200 and 1k. 

    Over time I have adapted this a little and the 30 seconds is now 30 to 45 with one rep every two minutes and on a slight incline, with a walk/jog back down. Start with 8 (or two sets of 4) and gradually increase to 12, and gradually try to cover more ground over the months.

    The 1k remains 1k but the aim is 4 minutes with 2 minutes walk/jog recovery, with no more than 4 reps. This is for someone aiming for around 20 minutes for 5k. Both types of session are on shale paths rather than the track.
    The final training aim is 4 x 1k in 4 mins with 2 mins recovery, but this will be built up to over a fairly long period of time starting with, say, 2 x 3 mins with 2 mins recovery; 2 x 3 mins with 90 secs; 3 x 3 with 2; 3 x 3 with 90 etc. I think something like this would suit you at present, AD. Start with a long interval (a term that seems to be misused a lot these days: the interval is the rest  period, as opposed to the rep!) Gradually decrease the interval and gradually increase the number of reps. 

    I like this form of training as it is easy to plan and easy to measure progress. Progressive consistent consistency!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Thanks for taking the time to post that Alehouse - sounds like a sensible plan to work through. Interesting it is based on time rather than distance on the reps. So would you suggest doing one of the ‘short’ sessions one week and then one of the ‘long’ sessions the next and keep alternating?

    So, 3 mile tempo session this afternoon. Target pace was around 7:10-7:15m/m. Miles came out at 7:11, 7:12 and 6:59 (got a bit carried away and slipped a gear to 5k pace for the last quarter of a mile or so).
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Andrew, It wont do you any harm to throw in that sort of finish for 400m or so on a tempo. I often do that just to give me a sense of the end of a race.

    I shall now be racing Saturday afternoon at the midlands rd relays. First time I have done these. It's never be a valuable use of time time when the kids have been younger, but now they are that little older and easier these things are easier to commit to.

    I must say I am still languishing in a my pit of disappointment from sunday so this maybe just what I need.

  • Don't beat yourself up too much DT - unless you really have overtrained yourself, which seems unlikely, then it is probably just a virus or suchlike and you will soon be back on form.

    Looking forward to an easier recovery run this afternoon after yesterday's harder session.

  • Nice one Andrew... good finish.

    Good luck with the relays DT.

    Weird one today. Sunday's 22 miler, the day after The Leeds Golden Mile, was brought to a premature end when I started getting knee pain between 20 and 21. I stopped at 21 and walked the last mile. I only other time I've had that particular pain was exactly 2 years earlier when I also ran the day after the Golden Mile ... that was at Tadcaster 10 and it hit me at 8 miles and I was brought to an abrupt halt. But it was gone by the next run.

    I haven't run since Sunday until today... I went for a marathon dress-rehearsal 15 miles at MP ... but got the same thing at 9.5 miles. Stopped at 10 but it was pouring down and I was 5 miles from home in shorts/T-shirt ... so in the end I did 4 x 1 mile (MP-30s) with 400m walks in between. Hoping its just some weird after effect from running at 1 mile pace. Otherwise the legs were fine.

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    AD: in answer to your last question, I would only introduce the "longer" session for now and try to take a consistent and progressive approach to that. If you were ever to introduce another "session" I would perhaps introduce the "shorter" in late spring or early summer. I am also a fan of speeding up the penultimate mile (or shorter) of a steady run with the last mile as warm down.

    I had something similar knee-wise recently which I think was from over-stretching in Pilates! You probably overstretched in the mile race without realising. Should settle!

    Enjoy the relays, DT! Sutton Park? I have a love-hate relationship with the place, having had some decent and some not so decent runs there.

    Weather here is foul!

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Dr Dan, yes I should think it's just the use of some different muscles from that race. Is it better today?

    Alehouse, yes Sutton Park. Never ran there before but from what people have said it's not a nice flat and fast 5k!

    14 mile mlr last night at 8.05 pace. It was surprisingly muggy when sheltered from the wind. I do now seem to have a very light cold. Annoying as I have a pretty big 5 days training as a final push!

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    edited September 2018
    Sutton Park needs approaching with care, DT!  The start is downhill and far too many (and I have done it) start off far too quickly and suffer on a long drag uphill. Better, in my view, is to set off conservatively and then pick things up off the top of the hill, and then again at the turn at the Jubilee Stone. Once you go past Keeper's Pool there are a couple of slopes to finish, assuming it is the usual course. Make sure you have time to walk/jog the course beforehand. And cold and wet here: just 8 degrees and heavy rain. Will leave my run until later!

    Edit: slight correction to the above, looking at the map. Turn is past Jubilee Stone which means you run slightly downhill to the turn and then a bit of a drag back:
    Course is 5.88k.
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Good luck at the relays DT.

    Alehouse - thanks, that sounds sensible. At the moment I only do 2 sessions a week (tempo, intervals) with a long run and two shorter easy paced runs.

    Did one such run yesterday afternoon - 3.5 miles, clipping along nicely at 8.15mm pace. Slightly sharper than the bottom end of my truly easy zone (which is about 8.30mm) but it felt very relaxed so I kept going with it.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Alehouse, thanks for the intel. Just had a look on strava at last Autumns midlands. The course seems to have measured about 3.65 miles. I can see the early strap with a sharp downhill then a right old slog up it. Can be very easy to burn yourself in red as relatively fresh at that point. The course thereafter that climb looks relatively smooth with no notable climbs.
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