The Middle Ground

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  • espenhbespenhb ✭✭✭
    JGav: I know I know. Would prefer running intervals with a group, but finding one that does track sessions from 7 to 8 in the morning ain't that easy ;) And with a new kid and a new house in need of remodelling running in the PM (except for the commute home) ain't much of an option. 
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    espenhb said:
    JGav: I know I know. Would prefer running intervals with a group, but finding one that does track sessions from 7 to 8 in the morning ain't that easy ;) And with a new kid and a new house in need of remodelling running in the PM (except for the commute home) ain't much of an option. 
    Yes - not many running clubs run AM sessions most have Track sessions on a Tuesday night.  Some tri clubs do which may be an option.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Personally I wouldn't go too far out of my way to run intervals (in fact I don't at all as I've not been to a club session in 6 years) if you are training for a half/marathon. If you were to write a list of all the different factors that feed into running well at these distances, for me, track intervals would be pretty far down it.

    6m progressive yesterday, just through the easy paces trying to open legs up in advance of my first tempo in a while tomorrow. Started at 8.14 and finished with a 6.57. It's quite a nice zone to run in as you are moving nicely without being near the well!

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Decided to do a faster tempo/threshold/generic faster paced run today.  8 k with the middl 6 all at 4.30m/km (7.15mm) felt comfortable actually apart from dodging the tourists in central London and having to slow down to avoid clashing with the changing of the guards.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited September 13

    Nice work jgav. Not sure I have the patience to do a tempo on busy streets!

    Did an easy but hilly 9 Wed night then 9 with a 10k tempo yesterday. First in a while so eased in with a 6.40 then went 6.34, 6.34, 6.34, 6.33, 6.35 and 6.30 for the last 400. Felt harder than it should, though Autumnal temps will be remedying much of that when they come along.

    Got up and did 5m recovery before work as out tonight.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Easy 14 today. got out mid pm and was warmer than i thought.  Good to get a full week in. 

    Tapering now, jgav? Happy birthday. 
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    30k on Saturday - really struggled the last 5 (mostly because it was uphill and hot) I hope I'm not too short on distance training, would love an extra 3 week block to really get those long runs feeling more comfortable.

    Then a quick ish 7k in 33min yesterday.  I really do like the faster running sometimes.

    Plan is to do 13 miles next weekend and 10 the week after.  Sensible for a taper? Or is it worth fitting in an extra long run 18+
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    jgav, looking back on strava I ran 22m on 13th April and 14 on 19th April, with London on 28th if that helps. Of course they were run a good 90s slower than what mp was.

    But it depends how adept you are at long runs and what they take out of you.

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    DT19 said:

    jgav, looking back on strava I ran 22m on 13th April and 14 on 19th April, with London on 28th if that helps. Of course they were run a good 90s slower than what mp was.

    But it depends how adept you are at long runs and what they take out of you.

    After my long run on Saturday I was wiped out for the day and tired the next.  Monday felt fine.  I was basing my plan off the typical 3 week taper having never done one before and some vague knowledge that long run fitness takes 3 weeks to bed in so no point going too long 2 weeks out - that could be total bunkum though.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    what pace did you run on Saturday and did you fuel correctly before, during and afterwards? It was of course warmer and hillier than you'd hope come race day.

    I'm not convinced there is a complete catch all fitness rule in that respect and also don't underestimate the mental benefit of getting a long run in even if the fitness doesn't filter through. As it's your first mara then you probably couldn't get away so easily with what I did. However I still think 2 weeks out leaves plenty of recovery time if you run slow enough and fuel well.

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Day before the long run was my tempo 8k - possibly not the best prep but then my diary doesn't always make it easy.

    Long Run
    Pace 5.27m/km (ideal mara pace is 5.00m/km but I'm erring towards the conservative side and going with 5.10m/km)
    190m of ascent - so not flat but not exactly super hilly
    Fuelling before - minimal
    During - 1xbeta fuel (80g carbs) 4xSIS gels (22g carbs each)
    After - milk and brazil nuts followed by normal eating the rest of the day

    2 weeks should be enough time to recover - alternative plan would be to do maybe 12k on Friday am and then 22k on Saturday so get 2 decent runs in without killing myself.


  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    ok so decent fuelling during and afterwards. A bit closer to race pace than I'd go with but fine generally. 

    Splitting them coukd be an ok option. 

    7m tempo yesterday. Came out 6.35 average so very similar to last weeks 10k at tempo. 
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Having spoken to a few people now (many of whom have come up with different ideas - grr) I think I'm going to go with another long run but a fair bit slower.  Plan to run race time (3.30-3.45) all slower than 5.45m/km, approx. 1mm slower than target mara pace.  It gives me a couple of weeks to recover before race day which I am more than capable of.  

    The following week will be maintain run distance with the 'long run' down to the 16-20km range before the final taper down the following week.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    jgav, I like to do a couple of long runs that are race day time on feet runs so circa 3hrs. I think 8.10mm for 22m comes out at 2.59 so perfect for me. You can also have a good practice on the final one with your race day kit, plan, gels etc. So yes I think that's a good idea.

    Try have a decent carb meal the night before and a reasonable breakfast. The last thing you want from a mentality point of you is for this to be a miserable trudge for 8 miles at the end.

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Got it done, managed another 31k average 5.45m/km. Had to fit it in around family commitments and DIY.  Feeling pretty shattered now, enjoying some sofa time with the F1.

    2 weeks to go
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Nice work, plenty of time to recover now. 

    I had to pull out of midland relays. Wednesday i went to gp about mark on my face. Dr diagnosed possible entry level skin cancer. Nhs wait for specialist was 6 months. Thankfully i have bupa via work. Friday morning i saw saw specialist who confirmed it eas quote as advanced as that just yet. Anyway, she wanted to remove there and then which i hadnt expected. She used cryotherapy to remove and advised me sweat raised risk of infection in first 48 hours and infection enhances scar risk. so given weather as well i decided not to race.

    Back to it today though with a gentle 12. 
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Sounds like the right decision DT19.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Yes probably so, still frustrating.

    6 x 1m session today. Im not convinvced that sub 6 25mm is going to be hmp in 10days time. 
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Tried to take a Strava segment 400m uphill in approx 1.2x and I ended up 1 second off.  Now I have to go back and do it again.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    I never can quite work out where strava segments start exactly on my routes, which is just as well. Various ones come up but it isn't easy to know the exact start point.

    7m tempo last night. Didn't have access to racecourse so on the pavements and rds at rush hour. Cam out 6.43mm which was fine given the mile reps Tuesday and 7 on Wednesday. Recovery 4 over lunch.

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    It's a segment I created so I know exactly where it is.  There weren't many segments where I live so have been putting them in.

    1 week to go, did 3k warmup then 15k at mara pace over a lumpy route.  Happy with that, now to recover and keep legs feeling good.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Yes, important week jgav. Sometimes doing less can be quite tricky. This is the week where any training you do can have the biggest impact in a negative manner. Try and get plenty of sleep and rest etc. 

    Easy 15 today with a slow start then a pick up 2nd half. Felt very good today. 
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    edited September 29
    So I'm off work Monday and Tuesday for the Jewish New Year, will be lots of eating and not much else. Will get a few easy 30 mins in but not planning much else.

    Nice work on the 15
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Enjoy your new year celebrations, jgav. The work is done now so they've come at a good time. 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    How you feeling now jgav? What's the carb load plan?
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Feeling good, did another 30 mins slow run out yesterday and keep worrying about niggles/weather/clothes etc.  I know that it's all just the small things and there's nothing major to worry about.

    I don't have a carb load plan - is that a thing?  Was just going to eat whatever I felt like on Friday, decent lunch on Sat and then a smaller meal in the evening.  Race morning I'm pretty comfortable with my usual peanut butter and jam sandwiches plus electrolytes and maybe something for nearer the race start. 

    Do I need to do something more specific?
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Jgav, some people make a bigger deal about carb loading than others. The first comment is that you shouldn't start eating things etc you aren't used to.

    There is a lot of info on line re effective car loading and it takes a while to work out what suits you. For me I aim for about 8g of car per day per kilo I weigh so in reality 500-600g. You have to eat smart to get there and not be stuffed and avoid no carb items that will fill you. I'll often eat just pouches of uncle Bens micro egg fried rice. Also sports drinks and orange juice are an easy way to get them. I tend to load Thursday and Friday with purpose then starting easing back after lunch on Saturday.

    Race morning I often struggle to get much down me. The point is that your glycogen should be topped up to bursting by then so it's just about not feeling hungry. ILL' have toast and jam and maybe a banana with tea and some orange juice. I'll also drinks a maurtens 320 an hour before then sip on water right up to gun. Then stick to the gel plan. You might not think you need it at 5 miles but it's important to keep a regular flow of carbs, especially as the further in you get the harder they are to get in you and digest.

    Remember though, it's supposed to feel easy at 10m so don't be tempted to kick on. A few miles too fast from there to half way will destroy you at 20. Be the guy cutting through the field in the last 8 as it breeds energy as opposed to having everyone pass you which kills your spirit.

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Thanks for that, really helpful.  I'm still not planning on being that precise, just switch to more carbs and less protein fat.  Eat to satiety without gorging.

    When you say 8g of carb per kg, is that in total over the 3 days or per day?  

    I figure a pizza Friday lunch may well be in order :smiley:  I really hate running when feeling full, so definitely planning to ease off Saturday afternoon.  I love the fact that eating a whole malt loaf is acceptable.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    yes that's per day. 
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    600g of carbs for me.  That is in the region of 2400kcal just from carbs.  Presume I'd need other food on top of that.  So 3k - 4k cals per day ish.  Sounds like a lot of food!
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