The Middle Ground

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  • I take it none of you have any triathlon ambitions then?  :p Swimming's a faff for sure (especially at the moment), and I don't enjoy it as much as running, but right now my body is really appreciating the change in stimulus. I went for another swim yesterday that I found a bit tough.

    Today I tried 30 mins run back in my Kinvaras, first run of the week. I don't know whether it's because I'm more efficient in those shoes, or because I'm getting some fitness back, but my easy pace was right around 5:30min/k @ 145bpm - and that's not far off where I was before I was injured. I'll try 30mins again on Sunday if the hip continues to get better.
  • It didn't feel a lot like tier 4 today in the park. There were swathes of people, and since I opted for comfort and cushion over grip in my choice of trainers, running on the grass to avoid people ended up being a slow, trudgy and slippery affair. Still, 35 mins in pleasant weather at this time of year, and with the hips behaving is not to be sniffed at!

    Body still feels good a couple of hours later. I've discovered a mixture of foam rolling and stretching that really seems to calm down the hip area. I think the tightness of my quads is a big factor - there were some very sore spots that have been improving with time on the roller, and whenever I give them that attention, my whole body seems to feel a bit more loose and comfortable.
  • All sounds good, Muss. Apart from the crowds. Fortunately barely saw anyone on my gentle hour's run this morning. Mix of icy rain and sun. Just under 48k for the week, which is more like it.
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Evening all! 

    Well, after 15 days of no running I decided to take the plunge. I had noticed a considerable improvement in my knee pain during the first week off but then it sort of plateaued and continued rest didn’t seem to be helping anymore so I figured I could test out a short run.

    Based on advice here, I broke it up with walking sections, so ended up doing 4 x half mile sections of easy running with a little walking between each one.

    Felt fine during and afterwards. Will just have to see how I feel tomorrow.
  • Good news! Massage could be a good thing to try - there's probably some scar tissue hanging around that could be broken up. If you can combine that with some strength work, you'll be promoting the growth of new and healthy muscle fibres. 

    32 mins easy for me and 6k, although I definitely strayed into that "marathon zone" rather than keeping it genuinely easy. Still, it all felt easy enough aerobically, just the heart rate crept up above 160 a couple of times. Hip starting to feel good and strong, rather than just "better". I'll stick to day on/day off until I've got a few weeks of consistency, though.
  • AD: what Muss said!

    All sounds sensible, Muss: you are right not to rush things. 

    Incorporated a fartlek into a longer run today. First quicker run since mid October. In the summer did this as an introduction to speed work, and felt considerably better than today. However it is a step in the right direction. Tomorrow will be a gentle recovery run!

    And where's DT? Hope everything is alright.
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Thanks both - I’m trying to take it easy with a combination of light running days (yesterday was 2 x 0.75 miles), strength session days and rest days as well as icing it most nights. Massage sounds good too - not so easy in tier 4 though.

    Glad you’re both progressing well. Maybe DT is having some down time after his exertions last weekend?
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Sorry chaps, work was hectic until I finished Friday then Saturday after spin then kids footy I was out all day for our lads Xmas drinks then Sunday I was very ill! 

    Friday i got out for a steady 8m at 6.33mm pace, spin Saturday, Sunday nil, then sundays 16 yesterday, 6m recovery this morning then spin tonight. Whilst I'm off my wife is working so I'm busy with kids and Xmas food shop etc. 

    Glad to hear you are back at it, Andrew. I agree, a massage would be great but it isn't happening where you are. 

    Intervals tomorrow then a few quiet days to be fully festive! 
  • Oh to be able to have drinks with the lads, DT! Pubs have been closed here since March except for about 5 weeks! Did you have to have a substantial meal. Or a Scotch egg?
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • I actually meant self massage. Golf/squash balls are great if you don't have a foam roller. A wooden spoon or rolling pin can also work! Going across, rather than along the muscle fibres is good for breaking up scar tissue.

    Carry on icing by all means if you like it, or if you get new pains, but I reckon at this stage it's unnecessary - it's mainly useful in the acute stage of an injury to reduce inflammation, or the first couple of days.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Yes I'd agree, at this stage now they at most recommended ice and heat if anything at all.

    Alehouse, it took some planning as we had to keep numbers below 6, find 3 pubs with adequate outdoor facilities and the middle one had to have a simple bar menu. Sitting outdoors was fine as there are many places here that have really equipped themselves for outdoor dining in winter. Plus we had to book it all weeks ago to make sure we had the tight places in the right order. 

    We made bookings for 1.30-4.30 for a nice enough meal, then 4.30-7 somewhere with a £2.50 basic bar menu then 7.30-11 for dinner though by then I was too drunk to eat properly or want to eat. 

    It was well needed, particularly as whilst we were out Christmas essentially got cancelled! 
  • Thought I'd miss the queues to collect my christmas order at the butcher if I got up at 7:00 to go - there was already a substantial line when I arrived. It was very nearly 2.5 hours of queuing, and I was very cold, stiff and hungry at the end. The idea of going back home, taking off some clothes and then going back outside seemed very unappealing at this stage.

    Still, I stuck to my plan, and I'm so glad I did. 40 mins, 7k (or a bit over 4 miles), and managed to keep the heart rate lower this time. Nice to have some sunshine for a change.

    Hope you all have a Great Christmas!
  • Got to the bakers at 6:55 to find a queue even though they hadn't yet opened. Served at 7:35 so comparatively quick! Ran the short distance there and back but left the main run until later. Enjoy the next few days!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Have done two runs over the past 24 hours, each of 2.5 miles, so trying to gradually inch the mileage up.

    Wishing you all a very enjoyable and safe Christmas break!!
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Easy 8 yesterday in horrible weather then spin today. 

    That sounds like some butcher and baker to generate those waiting times. Shame you hadn't been out queuing gor candle sticks, Andrew. 

    I dont see hours sourcing food, cooking food and clearing up food to sit down and eat for 45 mins as a good use of my Xmas day. We are off again this year to the Indian around the corner. £110 for the four of us and byo booze. Means none of us have to do a thing until 2.30 when we get dressed to walk around. 

    Have a good one all. 
  • 45 mins nice easy running for me this morning, 8km and a bit of climbing. Afternoon was a nice long walk through the woods, about 7km in total.

    About an hour ago I had a notification through the NHS app to isolate until tomorrow at midnight (which is pretty useless - it's not like I've been seeing anyone, but it still seems they should have warned me much sooner!), and my girlfriend has had a separate one to tell her to isolate until the 30th, so I think that may well be the last run for the year, now.

    In total: 165 runs, 1338km, 11,018m elevation. Looking forward to building on those numbers next year - I think I'll have a go at 2021km, and maybe 21km of elevation. 
  • Sorry to hear that, Muss! And you should certainly aim for 2021 in 2021: I have managed to exceed 2020 in 2020, and I'm old!

    Yesterday's easy run felt easy; today I felt old and the legs really didn't want to play! One of the worst runs of the year; there's always tomorrow!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • I found out that as neither me nor my girlfriend have any symptoms, that I don't have to isolate through the rest of her quarantine period. But just to be safe I went out early this morning to guarantee plenty of space to distance, as the park has been very busy over the festive period, especially with so little else to do at the moment! It was a pleasant and cold 7.4km, with a bit of climbing - in this part of South London, it's nigh on impossible to find a route that doesn't involve an incline.

    I was feeling a little sore - I did a Joe Wicks workout yesterday with my girlfriend. Some of the plyometric type moves have really hit my calves (especially soleus) in a way that I haven't experienced for a long time. Fun though, and surprisingly tough!
  • Hope you have all had a good Christmas?

    No running here since Christmas Eve, and the knee was quite sore on Boxing Day but a little better again today, so I think I’m going to have to try and get a referral for a scan or something.

    Lack of running combined with too much food and booze this week and I’m feeling a bit fat!! January diet needed!
  • Sorry to hear that Andrew - fingers crossed it's nothing to worry about. 

    I can relate on the diet front. I'm not one to count calories, but my base diet is essentially pretty healthy. When I'm in a good running routine, I feel I can essentially allow myself the unhealthy stuff (booze, ice cream, etc.) whenever I like without it sticking. Since I've been running less (and haven't cut out the high sugar/fatty foods, or portion sizes for the healthy stuff) I have definitely noticed a bit of a difference! 

    Almost 8km/45 mins easy today. HRM had a bit of a blip on the run, it jumped from 140, to 170, to 190 in the space of a minute. Then, when I got home, and started stretching, it suddenly went up to 250! I hope it's not in need of replacing...


  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    Hope the knee is soon sorted, AD! Make sure that you are at least doing the core work!

    I have put on 4 or 5 lbs since my biopsy in October: one aim for 2021 is for that, and a bit more, to disappear. 

    Brief summary below of 2020 where the aim was to cover 2020 kms and race well: the latter did not happen! 
    Today's 20 minute run (on snow and ice wearing yaktrax) brought up exactly 2103 kms for the year. Probably the highest for quite a few years. 366 days run, longest of which was 16k in September. Not got anywhere near that in the last ten weeks. The year started off badly with back and then hamstring issues; by Easter was training well but quite a deterioration from the week before October's biopsy and thereafter. Just about getting back into things but not had a 50 km week since October 18th. Before that I had 18 out of 21 weeks over 50: there's always next year. 
    No races, but 8 parkruns, none of which were raced.

    2021 here we come! Hope to see you all posting good things, and perhaps I could tempt some of you to post on the 2021 in 2021 thread!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Happy new year everyone - it’s a cliche, but let’s hope for a better one this time around!

    Went out for a little run yesterday, to end the year with a total of 642 miles for the year.

    It was a really mixed year for me. After starting the year with basically no running until the end of March, lockdown prompted me to start up again and by June I was back to doing a decent mileage (by my standards). Kept that going through to the end of November and felt in decent shape based upon training paces and effort levels and the last time trial I ran.

    Unfortunately I could feel the knee/shin problems developing through October and November and I probably should have had a rest period sooner than I did, as I probably made it worse by continuing to push the training.

    So now I am feeling back at square one, after just 25 miles in December and nursing an injury that I can’t seem to pinpoint. Rest helps it to an extent, but hasn’t resolved the issue entirely and after just a few short runs in the days before Christmas it triggered the pain again.

    First resolution for 2021 is to get the problem properly looked at and treated. Only then can I set realistic running goals for the year.
  • Happy New Year all!

    Good luck AD, I hope you manage to get to the bottom of it soon.

    Ale - 366 runs and 2100km considering those setbacks is a very impressive feat in itself. I'm sure you'll get back to those 50km weeks soon enough!

    Fun little jaunt in the woods for me today.
  • So before I can book a physio appointment next week, I did some reading around running form and how it can impact knee injuries (particularly patella tendinopathy which is what the physio said she thought it was). 

    It seems running with a low cadence (mine is rarely outside the 158-162 range) and flat foot landing (as I naturally do) both put a lot of load through the knees, so the advice available online seems to be to increase cadence and to try to be more forefoot landing.

    Tried both in my run today (only 2 miles) and managed a 170 cadence. Fore foot landing certainly puts pressure through the calves though doesn’t it?! Think I will have to make the adjustment slowly, and work on strengthening ankles and calves too! Along with the glutes, quads and core ....
  • I'm not an expert, but I would change one thing at a time, and gradually! Cadence first, 165, to 170, then 175 etc. Strides help a lot with this, as it's about lifting up the feet quickly as well as just putting them down quicker. 

    Any kind of footstrike can be part of good running form, and a heel strike is fine, if it happens underneath a bent knee, and under your centre of gravity, i.e. not too stretched out in front of you! Midfoot landing is probably the most efficient, and the lowest injury risk. As you've discovered, forefoot landings really knacker your calves, which could lead to injury.

    Footwear is a consideration, too - a low heel to toe drop encourages a mid/forefoot strike. 


  • I suspect it is not easy to change style, AD, and will take a long time. Ankle flexibility and strength work recommended! Probably need to think about shoes and certainly alternate them each time you run. 

    67 minutes yesterday in recognition of my new age, and 20 k so far this year. 

    And where's DT?
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Happy new year all. I just have less time when off work and kids are here and less appealing typing a post on a mobile. 

    Christmas week I kept it all easy and posted my first 50m week since March. This week then got interrupted with ice. Was due to run 8m tempo NYE but it just wasn't safe so did 10.5m mlr. Yesterday afternoon just before it snowed again I did 14m with 4m wu then 2 x 4m at mp off 1m. Overall came in 6.45mm for 9 but taking the recovery mile out was low 6.30s. Ended with a mile cd. On 45m for week and due to run 4m later having spun this morning. 

    As for my 2020, it started off full of promise with a big 10k pb and places in London, Berlin and New York maras. Feb bought a big half mara pb and march a 20m pb. Then my back went and covid happened and I didnt run properly again until August. Fitness came back much faster than I anticipated and December bought a bigger half mara pb. Ended the year on 1589m. However I did much more cycling than ever before. As it was spin I dont have distances but my calorie burn biking was higher than 2018 and 19 combined. 

    Andrew, changing running form is not the holy grail, particularly at our kind of level. There's plenty of examples of elite runners with dreadful form. I think form naturally improves as you run more and deliberately trying to change it can lead to more bio-mechanical issues. My cadence during my session yesterday was 190 according to garmin and 192 in my recent half. I do have quite a high cadence as friends who are more novice runners have commented on it when they've seen me out running. 
  • Ale - happy birthday! 

    10.5km for me today. Heart rate was a little high, average of 157bpm, but it did feel plenty easy enough. Personally I find it quite stressful having to navigate busy parks, and there were many times that I was forced into taking very muddy and slippy routes to maintain distance from others. That made it difficult to settle into a rhythm, but it was still pleasant enough. 

    Nice to get my longest run since taking time off, and biggest week at 4 runs and 33.7km. Hips feeling a little sore, but a different soreness from the tendon problems I was having before (and it feels symetrical this time!). I'll monitor it, but I'm pretty sure it's nothing to worry about. At the moment I feel like I'm a bit hypersensitive to any kind of ache or pain.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Oh, I missed that. Happy birthday,  Alehouse. 

    I hate seeing people ahead of me when running as they usually walk in middle of footpath.  I do call out when I'm bearing but often they have headphones in. Most of the time I'm in the country lanes so not an issue. 

    I get lots of different types of aches and pains, Muss and mostly they are different from ones I know have caused injury. It's just a matter of knowing which ones are potentially a problem and which are just fatigue. 
  • I don't mind when it's not busy, but when people end up blocking the whole path and there's lots of foot traffic, it pisses me off even without covid and social distancing. Today the most blatent lack of consideration was a couple of groups of around 10 with several large dogs on extendible leads. One was just stood still, leaving people to traipse through puddles or mud to get around them. Sounds petty, but it is so annoying!

    When do you guys think races are likely to be back on? I'm looking into Hackney Half, which is due to be on in mid May. I'm not too bothered about the covid secure thing as I've never actually raced apart from parkrun! I've also already got a place for Brighton Marathon in September - fingers crossed that will be fine!



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