The Middle Ground

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  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    Well done Muss - you are certainly having a very consistent and restrained return from your injury. Something for me to aspire to.

    So far this week I've just done 2.5 miles on Monday, which is the furthest I've gone without a walking break since mid December. Looking at 3 miles later today (if work pressures allow). Have let the S&C slip a little bit over the past week, so need to get back on that as well.
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Sensible, Muss! I'm trying to be the same! Today's exceedingly wet (full waterproofs) 5.3k saw an average of 114 and a max on a hill of 121. We must remember that the heart rate of an older runner is very different compared to you youngsters! 

    Get the S&C done, AD! Have managed to do mine all 13 days so far this year, although I do have rather more time on my hands as no work here due to the lockdown. Or pay, which is another story. 
    Was thinking about bowling actions: your left leg will indeed take a fair amount of the stresses, but that is in a straight line; I wonder if the second step, landing on your right, must go across at an angle as you follow through and avoid treading on the pitch. 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Andrew - I probably should have been run/walking up to this point to be honest... It's all been easy in the sense that it's been conversational, but my heart rate has often strayed into the 160s. 

    alehouse - indeed... I generally walk for 5/10 minutes before I run, and my heart rate is often at 110 before I've even started running. That is a fairly brisk walk, though. I'd also guess that I have a pretty high proportion of fast twitch muscle - I don't know whether there's any correlation between maximum heart rate and muscle fibre composition as well as age.

    What kind of conditioning are you doing at the moment? The same Pilates style?

    I've been following a new 30 day programme by Yoga with Adrienne on YouTube - which has been very good so far! It's very focused on mindfulness and breath, which I've enjoyed a lot. On top of that I've started some fairly light dumbbell work, 3 times a week. It all seems to be helping.

    It's a similar story for me with work - and tax is due soon!


  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    Muss - same here, heart rate up to 150s or low 160s on occasion. Shows a loss of fitness from 2 months ago when easy runs were routinely in the low 140s for HR.

    Aley - you may be on to something there! And I will try my best to do more S&C!

    Very wet 3 miles just completed. HR averaged 151. Pace was around 9m/m. Managing progressively more of the run on my forefoot without the calves complaining, so they must be adapting. Felt some DOMS in my glutes today too - so I must be engaging them more than I ever used to!
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Guys, what are your average hrs in say a 10k race. It's difficult to rationalise that data without context of race effort hr. 

    Max hr definitely reduces with age. Mine is usually at 120 within about 30s of starting a run. 

    Had intervals yesterday, 20 x 400m off 45s. Average moving pace was 5.39mm. Fairly controlled session so only last few reps was it hands to knees between efforts. Nice easy but hilly 8m today at 7.49mm for a very low 135 hrm average. 


  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    edited January 13
    Last 5km TT I did my max HR was 197 with an average of 184. The highest I've seen on a session was over 200. Last time I did a half marathon the average was 167. When I was fitter in the Autumn, I was doing my threshold work at around 175. 

    I definitely noticed very fast results when I started heart rate training, and then I did a lot of running at around 145bpm. So I'm happy that I'm starting to sustain that level of effort without cardiac drift setting in super quickly.

    Good session! What did you average for the 400s?
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Muss, interesting then. My average hr in my last half mara in December  was 174 and my max in that was 181. I've not seen a peak higher than 187 in 2 years. I'm not sure how we thrash out that data, but it shows you have far more upwards capacity than me. Perhaps over the years of racing I'm a bit better conditioned at working closer to my limit than you've learnt to let yourself?

    Average rep was 1.24. It was only in the last few when I was running 1.20 that I was hands to knees but I don't think that was coaches session purpose. 
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    I can't help with precise data re heart rates, although I am certainly aware that I can't raise mine to anywhere near the rates that I used to be able to. I know in my early 20s I could hit over 200. Using 220 minus age as a rough guide would then have given a max of close to 200. Now it is 220-67, so 153. I have seen slightly higher than that and am using 165 as a theoretical max. My zones therefore are:
    1. under 102
    2. 103-119
    3. 119-136
    4. 137-153
    5. 154+
    I am trying at present to keep most of most runs in zone 2 although will creep into zone 3 on hills or if I push on in the second half of a run.
    Currently working on my base, particularly as during the pandemic I do not want to push anything and possibly have an impact on my immune system: filling that tube of toothpaste rather than squeezing some out. 

    Back to the cricket: foul day here so what I run and when is questionable! Plenty of time for stretches! Muss: I am indeed doing Pilates based work, although have done some of Adrienne's in the past. Currently working from the Pilates for Runners book (Harri Angell) and videos/notes that my physio has sent me. All done very slowly and precisely.
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    DT - not done a 10k since having a HR monitor, but in my last tempo session before injury in mid-November I did 3.5 miles at 7.03 pace for a HR averaging 175 and peaking at 183. Last intervals session in the same week saw my HR peak at 181.
  • Yesterday's tax return submission and subsequent estimate sent my HR up to 100 whilst sitting still! 

    Good run this morning. I was feeling good, so after 5km very easy, I did 2x1km @ (hypothetical!) Half marathon pace @ 4:45, 1km easy, and then drills and strides, followed by a cooldown walk as I was already at the upper limit of the distance range I wanted to cover. 152bpm average for the whole run, and those two faster Kms averaged at 162 - felt pretty good, and not in danger of going too intense.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited January 15

    Ha, I did mine a few days ago but had estimated my liability to within £100 so it wasn't too upsetting!

    Nice mini session.


    Just been out for my weekly tempo with 1m wu and cd then 8m alternating between mara pace and hmp. Splits came out 6.46, 6.13, 6.44, 6.04, 6.42, 6.05, 6.36 and 6.05. Average pace was 6.25 and average HR was a meagre 157, which is about my lowest for that pace and distance.

    I've definitely had another hike in fitness this last 2 weeks. Every session and even just easy run I do is feeling easier and coming in faster.

  • Is there a back up race in case Dorney doesn't happen? Fingers crossed for you! And do you have another HM booked in?

    I always forget that their estimate doesn't take into account payments on account that you may have made. So this year, I actually I ended up paying more on account for next year than balancing for 19/20. 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Mine is pretty straightforward as I am PAYE. I just have to pay back child benefit which we keep forgetting to cancel and tax on a couple of medical schemes as my tax code doesn't cover it. I just set aside £150 a month and then a bit here and there to top it up such as the months we don't pay council tax.

    Nope, no back ups of any kind until Autumn. It will be what it will be, all I can do is keep plugging away and building the fitness. It won't be wasted!

  • 80 min run/walk today with a friend. Probably not that sensible to exercise together at the moment, but we were mainly pretty distanced anyway, and most importantly we tried to distance from others as much as possible. Neither of us have any close contacts as a matter of course, so I don't feel too bad about squeezing it in whilst we still can!

    I really enjoyed the run/walk thing, as the run went on it became easier to maintain that really low heart rate. 12.6km @ 6:15min/km for 141bpm average, having had a rubbish night's sleep. 

    That takes me to 39km for the week, so I'll take a cutback next week. I'm in two minds as to whether to try and introduce a 5th run next week or the week after - there seems a nice kind of logic in trying to aim for 5x6km next week as a way of gently trying out 5 runs. I guess the most important thing is to just see how I feel.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    I think you're allowed yo train with one other, Muss. 5 x 6km still presents a 25% volume reduction so seems a good shout. 

    Easy 15m today to give me another 50m week. 
  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    edited January 17
    Yes, you can exercise with one other so long as you keep 2m apart.

    Good week DT.

    I did 3 miles today (no walking break) and the pace for a similar HR to recently (155) came out at 8.20m/m compared to 9m/m recently! Felt comfortable. Ran 90% of the run forefoot and at a cadence of 178 which is the highest I’ve ever managed. Hopefully all good signs.

    11 miles for the week.
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    No mention of injury, AD! A good sign! Did you forget to mention all the S&C that you have been doing?

    As long as you listen to your legs, Muss, you should be fine next week. 

    Decent week, DT! 50 here as well, although of the kilometres variety!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    Haha. I did a few minutes last night. My trouble is remembering to do it - I need to build it into the routine on 3 days a week. 

    No pain at all while running, tight calves now (but better than when I started forefoot striking, when the calves ached both during and after the run) and slight tenderness on the shin, but no worse than before the run.
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    edited January 17
    Yep, it's legal, but it doesn't mean it's sensible to exercise together! I'd support a change in the guidelines to reduce household mixing, which I guess is kind of hypocritical of me, but I suppose that's because I don't trust the majority of people to be careful! 

    Andrew - sounds promising! I hear from lots of people that pistol squats are useful for rehabbing knee pain. It sounds insane to me as they are such a demanding exercise, but I doubt you'll get the full range of motion for a while (which is what will really tax your strength and mobility), so working towards them might be useful! Good pace for that heart rate considering you haven't had much consistency recently. How is the cadence feeling? It took me a while to get used to it, but it started to feel second nature sheet about a month of steadily increasing the BPM on the metronome of my watch.

    EDIT: if you get on well with the forefoot strike, you'll probably want to make sure you add in plenty of calf raises into your S&C (as well as stretching). Also, forefoot strikers tend to be susceptible to Achilles and plantar fascia issues, so make sure to stretch/massage those as much as you can bear!

    Alehouse - my legs are actually feeling great right now, and I can't see them feeling worse after 5 shorter runs.

    Adding some dumbbell weight to my squats and bridges, as well as adding in single leg deadlifts has made a world of difference. My legs are starting to feel strong (and stable) in a way I don't remember them feeling since I played football back at school. Yoga has helped, too, but I'm going to make sure I do it every day next week. General fatigue is the only thing I'm worried about - but as I only got two hours sleep last night it's not surprising that's on my mind!
  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    Thanks Muss - I’ll certainly look to build in the calf work too. Cadence is starting to feel more natural each run.

    In terms of COVID restrictions, I think they have got them as strict as the majority of the public will now tolerate. Particularly as daily cases are now falling again (quite rapidly in some regions - rates in London and SE are 25% lower than a week ago) and the expectation is that the effect of the vaccine will soon help to reduce them further.

    I think we face an interesting time in March though - if they hit their vaccination target by mid Feb then a lot of people will want restrictions lifted swiftly thereafter, and I think may be disappointed!

    I just hope my cricket season can begin on time this year at the beginning of May!! 

    Oh, and two hours sleep?! Young children disrupting your sleep by any chance?
  • Yes, true. And the challenge of getting people to follow the restrictions that are already in place, rather than introducing new ones! 

    Cricket seems lower risk than football! Fingers crossed for you.

    No kids - a combination of too much food yesterday and every now and then I just have insomnia for a night or two. 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    I used to suffer terribly with insomnia, Muss. A bout would go on for nights. Thing is then, it would lead to a sense of doom about bedtime and a downward spiral. I am much better these days though, no real issues over and above anyone in my age group.

    I think the vaccination target is one thing they will hit and surpass quickly as they know it's the fastest way out. However, I think we'll be waiting a while for the leisure industry etc to open up. They have to learn from last August, where it was everything at once. Kids need to be back in school for a month or so, then they need to perhaps re tier the country accordingly.

    I was reading the plan to have offered every adult a vaccine by mid September. Once that is done, fundamentally if we cannot operate as normal then, i'm struggling to see a scenario where we can!

  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    edited January 18
    I think they’ll move everywhere down to tier 4 after half term in order to reopen schools and then gradually move places down the tiers depending on progress on infection rates and vaccinations.

    Realistically I think they should take it slowly, it’s all very well having the most vulnerable protected by April but if they then just reopened completely it will just mean the virus spreading through the younger age groups which may mean less pressure on hospitals but still a nasty infection for a proportion of those who do get ill.

    Trouble is they’ll get pressured by certain parts of the press and social media (and back bench Tory MPs) who seem to view the economy, especially the hospitality sector, as more important than people’s health. 

    Another tricky decision for the government.

    But I agree, barring a variant that escapes the vaccine, there is little argument for continued restrictions come September.

    We had a disrupted night from our 1 year old last night, then woken at 7 by the eldest , so I’m a bit fatigued myself today!
  • DT - yes, that is my experience too. A solid 8 hours for me last night, though, and feeling much better for it.

    I think there will still be some restrictions in place next winter. New strains, and uncertainty with the efficacy of the vaccine (especially given the government's gamble with giving a single shot to as many as possible). I'm sure they will not be as drastic as they have been this year, but I think 2022 will be when we see a true return to normality.

    Andrew - Personally, it does a disservice to the debate by labelling it lives Vs economy, notwithstanding the fact that this government have somehow managed to end up with a worst of both worlds situation. If you make it a question of lockdown Vs freedom, it's actually a much more interesting question, with profound ethical questions on both sides, of course. The fact that you get labelled callous and covid denying for doubting lockdown shows how far our perspectives have changed over the past year, and makes these voices all the more important, IMO, even if I don't share their views. 
  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    Indeed, hearing both sides of the debate is necessary. In fact, of the Twitter accounts I follow on this subject there are probably more in the ‘lockdown sceptic’ category so that I make sure I read a full range of opinions that are the opposite to my own!

    Anyway, back to running - I’m hoping to get out later (work permitting) as the forecast looks terrible for tomorrow!
  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    2.5 miles last night, keeping with the progressive nature of this comeback I will be extending my weekly mileage from 11 to 12 miles this week.
  • 6km this morning. I took a few very brief walk breaks - I'm going to try and be more disciplined in keeping my heart rate low. I felt so good after my long run that it convinced me of the benefits.
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    All sounds good!

    83 minutes largely off road yesterday, so a shorter run today. Was heavy rain first thing but cleared enough for me to put my kit on for just over half an hour. Raining again now and flood warnings in place, which does not bode well for many of my routes. 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • 6.5km today. I hope the storm doesn't effect any of you too much! For me it was just very windy.
  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    Blustery but dry here when I was out - think the worst of the weather is due overnight.

    3 miles today. Not much else interesting to say about it!
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