The Middle Ground

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  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    edited March 2021
    5km done in 19:31 according to strava, 19:33 according to Garmin. Either way that's near enough 20 seconds faster than my previous PB off no specific training.

    I was really not up for it this morning, I think I had about 5 attempts at getting off the mark :D The first couple of hundred metres felt fast, and it this point I was thinking that doing 4x1km at that place would be an ask. I settled in after a couple of minutes, and from then it felt really pretty comfortable up until 1,200m to go. Last few times I've done 5km hard, the hurt has seemed to set in at 2-3km, so perhaps I should have gone harder. The last few hundred metres were definitely hard work, but I didn't have to kill myself. I definitely had more in the tank, although psyching myself up for a sprint to finish was out of the question without anyone to race. The runner part of my brain is really annoyed that I couldn't find 2 seconds, but you can't be unhappy with a PB. It felt pretty smooth, too, which is always nice.


    Splits were: 
    3:59, 4:00, 3:58, 3:51, 3:43
    The easier perceived feel is borne out by some stats. 
    Today, I spent 15:27 in zone 4, with 3:30 in zone 5. HR max today was 184

    My previous PB was 7:03 in zone 4 with 11:58 in zone 5, HR max was 197.

    4km each way out and back for warm up/cool down.
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Well done, Muss! Obviously whatever you are doing is working! Probably consistency!

    Meanwhile I walked 1.8 k with my stick, slowly. No issues. Represents progress!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    That's a great, muss. Looks like you had plenty left yo have gone harder sooner as well. 

    Progress is progress, Alehouse. Glad you are heading that way. 

    10m tempo went well. Usual application working to 160bpm and nudging pace along in 2nd half to negative split and maintain control. Came out 6.17mm for 159 bpm for 62.51 and what would be a 20s pb. 3 weeks ago same run, 6.19mm for 160bpm. Happy with that in a 66m week at peak training with lots of accumulated fatigue. 

    These staple tempos have come on tremendously since January. Until then they were very low 6.30s or very high 6.20s and I thought I was in sub 2.55 shape then. 

    22m tomorrow. I keep thinking I'm mara ready then remember I've only so far done 2 of 5, 20 milers so far. So some big key training still to come to make me further ready and maybe another couple seconds fitter. 
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    edited March 2021
    Alehouse - that sounds like a lot of progress from a week ago. Is the dizziness better? 

    For sure the consistency is making a big impact, but keeping the easy runs really easy seems to be making a difference. 

    DT - you are surely marathon ready, at least in the sense that you could taper now and run a race very strongly. Do you have a time target in mind for Dorney? 

    Today's TT has really whetted my appetite for a half marathon, so I'm going to enter the race on April 24th.

    What kind of approach would you guys suggest to training? I'm on around 3 weeks of 50km p/w with 10+mile long runs, do I need to increase these much? And what kind of quality work do you find most useful for half marathons? Now that I've got some rhythm going, I obviously don't want to do anything to disrupt that, so I'll make changes gradually. For sure the next few days will be very easy for me.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Yes I feel I could rock up now and give a very good account of myself. 

    As for target, it's a bit of a scary concept. There's a lot of date that when extrapolated would suggest 6.30mm would be about mara pace. 

    In terms of half training, for me (and obviously my running history etc is different) I think the long run should be progressed to 15m, a decent tempo of upto 6m working at around hmp and some good faster intervals like 8 x 1k at hmp-10kp off 90s or so or mixed pace fartleks working in and out of hmp from mp. Thats just examples of the sort of things I do. 

    7.33mm for 22m at a low 140bpm this morning. I dont think I can ever recall such a comfortable long run. I used this as a race time on feet trial run. I set out at 11am as per raceday, had my pre run maurten 320 and a gel every 5m so got 4 in me. I had planned to run no faster than 7 45mm to replicate raceday time as well but couldn't manage it so came out 2.46. Close enough though. 

    That's 66m for week, one short of my highest ever. Two more big ones pending, made that bit easier with kids returning to school. 
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    edited March 2021
    Wow - incredible pace for that run at that low effort. You say that you couldn't manage any slower, but I'm guessing the recovery impact of running that bit faster won't make much of a difference given the run didn't seem to tax you very much!

    Thanks for the input. Should the longest run be 2 weeks out from race day? Or 3? And what kind of distance long run do you want the week before the race?

    I'll start at 11 miles this week and then work up from there. If I don't get up to 15, then I won't worry too much - 11 miles every weekend from now to then is going to be much better preparation than ramping it up too quickly and getting injured. Anything on top of that will be a bonus.

    In terms of sessions, my weekly mileage couldn't support that kind of quality, so I'll adapt those to around 5/6km of volume for the faster stuff. And it will probably just the one weekly session for me.

    In terms of HMP in sessions - do I go with VDOT calculations for pace? Or my HM PB? My feeling is it will be somewhere in between - I'm sure I could do faster than 1:40. But running 4:16 min Kms for 21km as per VDOT conversions sounds sharp to me, especially with only limited buildup. I can imagine doing 4:25-4:30 min kms, though.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Muss, yes there was no real recovery issue. Essentially 7.33mm, using McMillan paces is still in the lower half of pace range for a long run for me.

    I think to be effective training should be based on current fitness, not fitness from months ago, particularly when you've clearly been training well and can see gains. You can always start out on the cautious side with paces. You'll soon know if you've gone too hard or soft.

    My first half, i'd never run further than 11m. I did suffer in the last 3 but wasn't insurmountable. I wouldn't worry hugely about it, but if you can safely get beyond 13m in time then you should.

    Nice session today of 12k alternating between hmp and mp. Idea being as much as anything to run at MP stressed as you would in the latter stages of a mara. Average pace for the 12k was 6.15mm and average bpm 158. Interestingly I did same session on 02 Feb, but just 10k. That came out 6.22mm for 158bpm. So effort was same albeit I went further and pace was 7s per mile faster.

    Ordered myself a very expensive pair of running shorts last night, soar elite 2.0 half tight. £90 but reviews of all soar kit are very strong.

  • I've had a lot of adverts for their kit and it looks great, but I've always balked at the expense. I can understand the expense more with things like tights where there's compression involved, but £70 for a singlet seems excessive to me. That being said, my singlets give me very bad nipple chafing on long runs if I get to Vaseline up. And chafing really is miserable, so I can see that better designed stuff is definitely worth it.

    I was going to do 6x1k progressive today, but yesterday my HR was still a little high for whatever reason, so I took another very easy recovery day through the woods to. I now see that weather tomorrow is due to be bad, so I may do my long run tomorrow, and my session over the weekend when the weather has settled. I want to get an honest reflection of the paces and efforts, so I'll try to avoid having a wind helping or hindering. 
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    edited March 2021
    Quick update from me. Saw the cardiologist again yesterday having worn an ECG monitor for a week and had an echocardiogram since I last saw him. My notes say: 
    "The echocardiogram reassuringly showed a normal heart and that the heart had not been structurally damaged by the Covid vaccine. 

    The ECG was also normal and even when I had episodes of chest pain, or pain in the back of my head, this was not reflected in a change in heart rate. 

    The cardiologist said that the heart was what he would expect to see in a well trained athlete and he noted that whilst the lowest HR that was recorded was 37 the average resting heart rate was just under 46. 

    However the vaccine may have caused a change in the autonomic nervous system, and in turn this may well cause the erratic blood pressure readings, with BP generally too low. He suggests, unusually for a cardiologist, to increase my intake of salty food."

    Still not got to the bottom of why I am either light headed or am very tender at the back of my head. If no improvement in ten day the GP will refer me to a neurologist. Hope that isn't necessary.

    I imagine that it will be a good while before I run again so it may well feel like starting again. Have managed to build up the walking to over 5000 steps a day; wasn't even managing 3000 at one point. Still walking with a stick as a precaution although I might ditch that in the near future. Onwards and upwards (slowly). 

    Muss: I know a lot of people who have been successful at running decent half marathons who haven't gone above ten or eleven miles. They have come from a track or 5k background. Different approach to DT, I would say. 

    How's things, AD?

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Muss, don't underestimate a good singlet. I use the nike aeroswift which is about £60 (but I got it on an offer at £35). I ran in it in the Yorkshire mara where it poured down from about 45 mins before the race started, all the way though and afterwards. When I took the vest off you might expect it to have been dripping wet (that's certainly my experience from other vests from sweat or rain) but it was at worst slightly damp. Running around for 3 hours in a vest filled with water would give a reasonable weight gain, and they are lovely and smooth on the skin.

    Shorts came today so popped them on for my 12m MLR. I am not used to wearing tights and at first felt a bit restrictive but once I got moving I soon forgot about them and they felt great.

    Weather was very blustery here today and looks much worse over night and into tomorrow. I only have an easy 5 tomorrow so doesn't matter terribly if weather is poor.

    Alehouse- your HR stats are pretty similar to what my fitbit throws out with lowest readings at night going into high 30s but overall46-48.

    Sounds like a bit of an investigative process going on with you then. Fingers crossed the matter clears without the need for further referral.

  • Sounds like things are trending the right way, at least, Alehouse. Most people will never reach the kind of lifetime mileage you must have built up, so I'm sure starting from scratch for you will be quite a different matter to what it would be for some. I hope it's not too long before you can run again, but I know you won't start before you're ready - your patience is enviable! 

    DT - it will be interesting to see whether you notice a recovery benefit from the shorts. I know some people swear by compression and use it for pretty much all their training unless it's very hot. I haven't got any compression tights, but I do get my 2xu compression socks out whenever I feel any kind of foot niggle coming on, and it seems to make a difference. They're really quite tight, so not necessarily the ones I go to every day.

    Strange run this morning. Woke up with a bit of a headache and just generally feeling a bit groggy. Headed out for a run as it often makes me feel better. The run ended up being fast for one of my long runs, and felt very easy, at least the first 3/4 - a few Kms under 5:20 with HR in the low 140s, and 16km again under 90mins @ average HR 147, but with no progression this time.

    Despite the good running, I didn't actually feel any better, and I didn't really enjoy it much at all as I was hungry and needed a wee for the whole run! The wind really picked up for the last few Kms, and I went into "get home" mode - I probably should have eased up given the wind, but just couldn't be bothered. 
  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    Hi all,

    Glad to hear that DT and Muss are continuing to train well.

    Alehouse - as said above, make sure you take it easy getting back into running. I hope the overall picture is that you are feeling a bit better each day.

    As for me, I've been doing a few very short and easy runs over the past 10 days just to keep ticking over whilst I let the S&C exercises do their job. Both the knee and ankle are definitely feeling better than they were, but I think it will be a long road to recovery so I just need to be patient.
  • Glad the exercises are helping AD. My experience of taking time off taught me a lot. The first couple of weeks back running were alarming as I'd lost more fitness than I thought, and at first it didn't feel like a lot of progress was being made. I then had quite a sudden boost and now feel like I'm back where I was pre injury, if not fitter. So take the time to heal and strengthen, and just trust that the fitness will come back - it won't take you as long to build back as it did to reach that fitness before.

    Have any of you guys had any experience with foot extensor tendon problems? I've got a little niggle around there in my right foot, but I'm not too concerned about it. I don't feel it at all when it's loaded through walking or running, and even going up on tip toes and single leg calf raises on that foot feel fine. It's just a bit uncomfortable during plantar flexion, at end of ROM (this only really occurs in some yoga poses, which was when I first noticed it). It doesn't seem to effect my gait at all, and it's not exactly sore or painful, it's more like a prickly/mild paper cut kind of sensation. I've re-laced all of my shoes using the Lydiard technique, which feels SO good, so I think it could just be irritation from shoes. If it gets worse, then I'll see someone about it, but I've prodded and massaged it a lot now, so maybe I'll just leave it alone and give it a chance to settle.
  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    edited March 2021
    I’ve not had real issues with that tendon but it does sometimes get sore if I’ve had my laces too tight.

    I hope you are right Muss and I can follow your template back to fitness! 
  • The new lacing (in casual shoes, too) seems to be making a real difference and is really relieving that tendon. I've been taking ibuprofen, icing it, and massaging the area, too. Probably overkill, but I can now point my toes without any weird sensation whatsoever, so I'll carry on with that routine for a couple more days. 

    6x1km progressive today, off 90s jog. I didn't nail the pacing, but it will serve
     the purpose of a) getting a training benefit, b) exploring and gauging feel of paces. 4:27, 4:18, 4:19, 4:14, 4:15, 4:00. Most of the session was spent working aerobically (less than 2 mins in zone 4, which were the final minutes of rep 5 and 6, both on an upward gradient). Even so, I suspect threshold pace is probably in the range of reps 4/5, which probably makes sub 90 (as per VDOT) a little out of reach. I guess I'll find out more when I do some longer steadier reps. Anyway, running today felt great and it was nice weather for it.

    52km this week.

    Don't know whether to look forward or be scared about the North London Derby today! 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    I've never had cause to worry about the lacing, I just use shoes how they come out of the box.

    Some decent reps there. You should be working hard in the second half of that sort of session.

    I'd avoid taking nsaids, Muss. They are really bad for you to have in your body. I know a number of senior medical professionals who won't touch them and think they should be banned. Something like that, I just keep a tube of ibuprofen gel in the drawer and apply locally. 

    Ad, keep at the s and c, it'll do it's job. 

    Had a peak long run Saturday of 20m with 6m easy, 6m at mp  1m easy, 6m mp then 1m cd. I treated the first 6 as a warm up then the main block as a half mara session. I tried to keep the first 6m at a genuinely mara pace effort as I'd want first 6m to feel, so very easy. That came out 6.34mm, then an 8mm and back in. Again I wanted to to 13 as I'd want in a mara and not finish as I'd expect to feel later in a mara.  They all came out 6.31/6.32mm so overall pace with the easy mile was 6.38. Obviously I had to add on the .11 to make a half and noted I was at 1.26.xx so a bit of a sprint for 100m or so to come in 1.26.59. Average hr was 154 so probably a bit lower than I'd expect at half way in a mara. 

    Happy with that for a solo effort in pretty blustery conditions. Was expecting to feel a bit heavy legged or mildly sore Sunday but felt fine. Perhaps the shorts helped?

    One more big week to come now then taper time. 
  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    Good sessions for you both.

    I agree about avoiding NSAIDs - I don't use them, and stick to paracetamol for pain relief, partly because of the effect NSAIDs can have on your stomach in particular.

    I had another low mileage week but kept things ticking over with 4 short runs without any adverse reactions. Kept up the S&C sessions too. Ankle now feels pretty much back to normal, but there is still some level of pain in the knee. However, even the knee does feel better and isn't so sore going up and down stairs, or getting so stiff when I'm sat at my desk.

    Next physio appointment is booked for next Tuesday and I'm undecided whether to keep it online and just have a check in with the physio or whether to take the in-person appointment to see if he can do any hands on treatment on the knee.

    Hope things are improving for you Alehouse, if you are reading?
  • Interesting, I've always been warned about the dangers of paracetamol and liver function. Regardless, I very rarely take any kind of pain medication, in fact I don't remember the last time I used it. I've been using ibuprofen to manage inflammation rather than for pain, as it's not actually painful - but from now on I'll only ever use the topical stuff.

    DT, great news that you're recovering so well. How are you faring on the fatigue front?

    AD - it's totally up to you whether you do it in person or not, but I'm sure it will be a lot easier for the physio to give you a proper appraisal in person. It also opens up the option of getting some treatment, which might help a lot. 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Andrew, there's no substitute for in person treatment. If that is an option then you should take it.

    I think you have to take a lot more paracetamol to have issues that nsaids. They even state in the London mara race mag not to take nsaids on the day of the race and advise that if you have to take something then take paracetamol. Essentially it's more often the case that in the rare times people collapse and die at an event it turns out they've taken nsaids.

    Fine re fatigue. Obviously Saturday late afternoon and evening I was tired but in general terms it's fine. I think it helps a lot of course not having to be up and out to work all day. Even though I am working fully, putting some joggers on and walking to the kitchen table is much less tiring. Plus with no other real option of socialising or having days etc recovery is much easier.

    5m recovery run over lunchtime.

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Absolutely go for face to face if you can, AD!

    DT: did I notice that you are running Ashby (virtually of course)? Strategy? easy ten, hard ten?

    Muss: I would echo the avoid NSAIDs although perhaps ok for a short period. At present I seem to have a reaction to almost anything meds-wise and had a bad reaction to just one ibuprofen last week. Actually have seen the GP today after a bad weekend with several shaking and off balance incidents, and my blood pressure ranging from 180/90 down to 91/60. And every point in between, erratically. 
    Now wearing a BP monitor for 24 hours. Gave an armful of blood and being referred to an immunologist. Also seeing the oncologist tomorrow post prostate treatment and GP has written to him to see if he can help getting to the bottom of what is going on. And I am to book an optician's appointment to see if that is an issue.
    On the positive side am feeling a little better today and have managed three short walks (twice to the GP!). Have clocked 9000 steps so far today which is progress! With my walking stick in hand just in case. 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Alehouse, i know plenty of runners that reach for them automatically after runs, just to make sure there's no problem. The irony is, the natural inflammation and recovery process is all part of the growth cycle. 

    That sounds a lot to be dealing with, I really hope you find someone who can nail this down for you.

    I'm afraid Ashby will just be an easy 20, it's only two weeks from Dorney. The reality is when I entered it I genuinely did not expect Dorney to happen and anticipated that it'd be a month or so too soon for racing to be allowed and so it fell nicely to use it as a mixed pace long run like I did last Saturday. I dont need to take any chances now, the goose is cooked. 
  • Alehouse - really hope this all settles down quickly. Good news that you managed 9000 steps. 

    DT - yep, I'd leave inflammation alone if it's a part of the healing process. Here, I feel it's simply the result of the tendon's natural movement being restricted by the shoes (there's no actual swelling or anything) so wanted to calm it down so it doesn't start causing other problems. But it's now much improved and I will certainly avoid NSAIDs from now on.

    First time I've got out before 7 in a while. HR went up very quickly this morning, and was around 150 before I'd even run 1km, which came in at 6:38. At this point I thought I was in for a very tough run, but the HR soon dropped, paces quickened, and in the end it turned out to be a very enjoyable run. I was unfueled for this one, and maybe it took my body a bit of time to wake up and get moving. 10km at an average of 144, a couple of 5:15 minute kms in there too.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Muss, my hr stats are a noticeable bit higher when I run before circa 9am. 
  • 2x3km this morning, with 1km easy in between. 12:58 (4:29, 4:18, 4:09) and 12:57 (4:27, 4:18, 4:10) so eerily similar splits. This session has highlighted what I think my issue with this half is going to be, which is staying disciplined and backing off the paces. Today turned into a bit more of a threshold run than a goal HM pace run. Next time I do a session like this, I'll focus on how I want to feel in the first half - if I can get to 16km feeling good, I know I'll be able to start turning the screw and finish strong, but if I set off like I did today I could be in trouble! 

    But I suppose I'll still get a good benefit from today's run, so it's not the end of the world, more just a lesson.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    If you can get to 16k in  a half feeling good, then you've not gone hard enough in my view.

    I feel awful in the first 3m of a half thinking 'how the hell can I sustain this effort level for so long', then 3-9m I start thinking, actually I think I can manage this now, then after that it's very much 'just get to 10, you're nearly there then' and so on.

    Nice session though, and good consistent splits.

    I had one of my biggest and best sessions yesterday. Following a wu it started off with 3m at normal tempo pace. They came in at 6.09, 6.13 and 6.14. I thought that was a bit sharp but effort was fine. Then 3 min easy followed by 5 x 1m at HMP off 45s slow jog or walk. They came in 5.49, 5.46, 5.46, 5.46 and 5.53. I just kept going for the 45s at about 7.30 pace as didn't feel I needed to stop etc. Overall 8.80m at an average pace of 6.06mm for the session, including all the slow running.

    Strava says that in there I ran a 37.37, 10k and an 18.17, 5k. Probably the fittest and strongest I have felt on a session.

    Very easy 10m over lunch. Last few days then it's taper time.

  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    edited March 2021
    At this stage in my running, I'm quite happy to carry on chipping away at times, particularly over longer distances. I'd be ok with going out too hot and blowing up in a 5 or 10k, but I would hate to do that in a half. I'd rather have hefty negative splits and a slower time overall until I have more experience and a clearer sense of my limits. Just out of interest, at what point would you expect HR to start approaching threshold in a half?

    Great session DT. I assume by tempo you're meaning MP?
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Muss, it's more between mp and hmp really. 

    I dont have my hr displaying in a race. It's a great tool for training but can be an added stress and hold you back. 

    Looking at my last half in December by mile 3 my average hr was 173, then 174 by mile 6. My garmin tends to feel 173-174 is threshold. So I'm sitting right on the edge of it for most of first half after mile 1 then beyond it from mile 8 by looks.

    5m slow recovery today, with a 20 tomorrow.  
  • Those thoughts you describe were very much going through my head yesterday, and my HR was in the early 170s towards the end of each rep. In the autumn after quite a bit of threshold training, my watch thought threshold was 176 - right now that system is pretty untrained, so I reckon I might have lost a few beats.

    Saw a great flat today - we'll sleep on it but I'm sure we'll be making an offer in the morning. We must have seen about 40-50 places so far - I'll be grateful when this is all over! It's only a couple of miles away from where I am now, but it would change running routes dramatically. Right now, all my most interesting routes involve a fairly steep uphill to start, which is not ideal, but I do also have some boring options that start off with a very slight downhill. The new place opens up more flat options, and there's more scope to mix things up, but still with easy access to plenty of hills. The only thing I'd be sad to lose would be some woods that are great for recovery runs, and the aptly named Hell Hill, but they'd only be 2.5miles away, and there will be other options.
  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    Did you put the offer in Muss? Good luck if you decided to!

    Looks like you and DT (as always) are continuing to train really well.

    I also hate running early morning - not sure how it affects my HR but it always feels like much harder work! Sometimes it has to be done though, especially in the height of summer to avoid running later in the day when it is too hot.

    I've kept with the short and easy runs for this week. I'm gradually extending the total mileage each week following the 10% rule though. In a perfect world I would be free of the injury and back up to maybe 60-70% of my usual weekly mileage by the end of April and then can push on from there. That is dependent upon the start of the cricket season in May not causing any further injuries of course.

    I think I may be best to just keep things easy through the summer, treating it like a base training period, and to then look at getting back into 'proper' training in September.

    Not heard from Alehouse for a few days on here, hope you are experiencing some improvement in symptoms.
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Yes, I think base building across the summer, assuming that there is a cricket season, is the way to go, AD! Hope to be joining you, virtually! 
    Did you manage to make next Tuesday's physio appointment face-to-face? 

    Medical bulletin, day 43...Long telephone conversation with a consultant this morning: next step is an MRI scan of my head and neck plus yet more blood tests. Feeling marginally better today...but nowhere near how I should be feeling! Still light headed and generally unsteady, with a dull head ache: and that is when I am at my current best! All the medical people think that it is viral but not Covid and that it will pass in time...but we don't know how long! 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
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