The Middle Ground

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  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Well done today, DT! Within yourself?
    The female winner was very impressive!

    Did you parkrun at the end of the long run, Muss?

    AD?


    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited July 25
    Alehouse, yes very controlled outing. Spent the first 10m trying to run at 6.30-6.35 but constantly pulling back from 6.25 with 6.30mm just feeling pedestrian.  Went through half way at 6.27mm and 64.30 then just let go and ran 63.04 second half. Average hr was 158. In my last two marathons it was 165. I felt had I needed to I could have run the full mara distance. Last 5m were 6.15, 6.11, 6.09, 6.14 and 6.07 so completely in control of the pace. 

    Without a taper, carb load or the big mara specific training phase, pleased to run 20m at 2.46 pace. 

    As for first female I'm a bit confused. I know her as she's from malvern originally and a couple of years ago she narrowly beat me at pitch croft parkrun whilst home for Xmas. She's come a long way since then, however I didn't see her on start line ( and I was looking for her as I'd seen her name on the entry list) then about 13m in she came passed me at quite a pace and working hard like it was a 10k. Then at about 16m for me I passed her half way around the course pulled up walking away like her race was done and she didn't then pass me again and I didn't she her at finish. There's no way she would have been lapping me either as it was a 5k loop x 6. I'm not convinced she didn't change distance or something but not registered it. Not many females can run a 1.52 20m time having pulled up for a bit and seen out the latter miles slower than my 6.12ish average. 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    What also doesn't add up is her chip and gun time is the same which means she needed to have been right on the start line. There were only 2 spaces on the very start line and they were filled by me and another bloke. If she was in that start she would have passed me in the first 400m and it was an empty field at that point with an out and back section. I'd have seen her. 
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    I thought that there might be an issue: 1:52 for 20 is indeed very quick for a female! 
    All sounds good with your long run with a number on!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    I've just dug a bit deeper and found her run on strava. She basically started at 9am with the marathon runners. She should be disqualified from taking places for that as each race distance was run as an individual race as opposed just a solo tt. I enquired about starting at 10am with the half but was told I must start in the race I'm entered in. 

    She ran 2.05 but it looks like the system has assumed she started at 9.15 as per the 20m start time, not 9am, which is odd as you'd think the chip would just go from first to last crossing of mat regardless of time of day. 2.05 would still be first female by a fair distance though. 
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    Congrats DT - a great run and shows there's more to come. Will you adjust your target got London at all?

    Alehouse - I didn't get out early enough to do that unfortunately. I ended a km or so alongside the Beckenham Place parkrun, before my route diverged from theirs, which was really nice. But obviously I didn't get a chance to assess the start/finish line situation.

    29km on Saturday - the last few km were a real struggle. I took gels with me but didn't end up using them, I felt ok till about 23/4km and then absolutely crashed (although the pace didn't really suffer at all). I don't know if I'd have felt any better if I'd taken on some more calories. Legs felt extremely heavy and a bit stiff afterwards, but nothing too bad beyond that.

    Got out for 7km recovery yesterday - I love doing a short recovery the day after a long run. I find it's easier to find the lowest intensity levels when you're already quite fatigued. Yesterday it was around 40mins with HR at 131 average bpm.

    That takes me to 72km for the week which is the most volume I've ever run - although I felt great immediately after the run yesterday, I ended up feeling very fatigued by the afternoon, so I'll be grateful for an easy week this week.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Muss, for now I am quite happy with the sub 2.50 plan which will require 6.25mm so aiming for that, If I am a bit fitter then it'll just develop over the last 8m or so and it'll be what it'll be.

    That's a decent weeks training. One thing I have learnt is that marathon training isn't just about the running, it's about the kit and the nutrition. Taking on board calories in a longer race/run doesn't come down  to what you think you need at the time as once you do realise you need them it's too late to turn it around. As the runs  get longer you need to be taking on board gels in the frequency you plan to on race day as you need to just   keep things topped up. The additional benefit of doing it on longer training runs is that you won't feel as drained/depleted after the run.

    On sunday, I had a maurten 320  drink about 45 mins before, then a 100mg revvies on the start line, a gel at around 6m, a revvies at 9, a gel at 11 then a revvies at around 14.

    4M recovery run yesterday and off out for 10 easy miles over lunch. Autumn marathons suddenly seem like they are more than creeping upon us now, having seen a post saying London was 10 weeks sunday, so with a 2 week taper and a 10 day holiday to come that only leaves 6-7 weeks full training.

  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    I'll try that out from now on the long runs. 

    As volume has increased recently, I've found pace for any particular HR has really suffered.  I've been wondering if I've been overtraining, or losing fitness. Obviously there's been heat and humidity to deal with, too, but even on cooler, easy days, I've been feeling like a lot of the improvement I'd seen since my half back in April had disappeared. But three days of easy running and shorter distances, and paces are picking up again while HR is dropping, so good to know that both the training and the recovery week are working.

    At the start of the week, feeling sore in a few places, but especially my right Achilles, and feeling pretty run down in general, I was doubtful about doing parkrun on Saturday. Now, I'm feeling quite up for it again. 

    How's the tibialis, ale?
  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    Hi guys, it’s been a while. Largely because I’ve had little to report.

    You’ll recall I had my private MRI scan at the end of May and the physio said he didn’t notice too much wrong except some inflammation along the tendon? Well a couple of weeks later I got an email telling me that the written report with the scan had gone to my GP, so I arranged a telephone consultation with her. She said the report mentioned some other issues except for the inflammation- in particular that my kneecap sits higher than is normal, so she referred me to a consultant on the NHS.

    I expected to wait months for an appointment, but had one this week in the end, and at the local private hospital just around the corner from here! The consultant confirmed that both knees have the same issue - my kneecap sits too high (patella alta is the medical term) and the ‘groove’ it sits in which should be v shaped is actually lopsided and pushes my kneecap to the outside of my leg too.

    All issues I will have been born with, and nothing he can do from an orthopaedic point of view. So he’s referred my to the NHS physio for an appointment based on that new diagnosis. 

    Also, I mentioned having ankle, shoulder and wrist pain and he has suggested getting the GP to send me for some blood tests to check for early markers of inflammation for rheumatoid arthritis. 

    In the meantime, I am unsure whether to restart running at all or to wait until the cricket season is over.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Muss, no doubt there will be some dipping into overtraining i'd have thought as you are moving into territory you've not been in. That's when it becomes important to run easy very easy, get the right nutrition, rest and take the cut back weeks.

    But yes, anything over 20c and it does start impacting on what any level of running takes out of you and so your HR will be higher as the heart works a bit harder.

    Andrew, sorry to hear about the knee diagnosis. It's good to get to the bottom of things and to see someone who may not be able to fix it, but can help you with things that can improve matters and let you run if you want to.

    I am assuming the ankle/shoulder/wrist pain isn't limited to one side and can be put down to bowling?

  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    DT - sadly not, the shoulder and wrist pain are on my left hand side (and the shoulder pain predates the cricket season starting) and the left knee also has issues sometimes. 
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    edited July 31
    Dulwich parkrun today. As I turned the corner into the park I saw the tail end of the runners cross the start line. No time for drills and strides or to settle down after my warm up, then. I'd also forgotten my barcode, but given this was now something of a TT anyway, no harm done. One of the stewards told me the clock was on 1:40 when I started. 

    3:48 for the first km. Lots of the runners up to this point thought they were already getting lapped which was quite amusing. It's a three lap course, and I very nearly packed it in after lap 1. Luckily I hung on, Km 2 was 3:46, and 3:43 for km 3. I took it easier from here, I didn't have the strength to push through that kind of effort today. 3:52 for km 4, and the watch buzzed 3:50 for km 5. There was noone to really chase for the 80ish metres still left before the line, so a slightly half arsed pick up and 19:15 on the watch when I crossed the line. The best part of 20 seconds off my previous best, and I suspect that will have been slightly short, so all in all a decent result I suppose. I am a bit disappointed not to get under 19 - I'm sure it's in there, so maybe I'll give it another go in a couple of weeks. 

    Average HR was 185, max was 207 (which is the highest I've seen), so it was hard work!

    Hoping to get my second jab from a walk in today. Slightly early at just under 7 weeks, but a work trip to Spain has popped up, and I'm really hoping to avoid quarantine as that would get in the way of mara training at a crucial point.

    Sorry to hear about that AD, but I hope this means you're closer to getting some help that will alleviate your issues.

  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    I was up in the Lakes for work, but managed to fit in my long run yesterday before I drove back. 28km with about 450m of elevation gain, pretty much all of that split between two climbs, both of which I had to walk. The gradient on the second was 25% at one point! - not really what I wanted 24km in, but I did get a significant downhill for the last two km, almost too steep to get benefit from!

    I thought I was heading out in a gap in the rain, but it pissed down after about 20 mins so I was soaked through. I nearly threw the towel in, but I'm so glad I didn't, it turned out to be a great run through l lots of amazing scenery and if race day is that rainy then I'll be prepared. 
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    I hope everyone is well?

    Anyone had any experience of training on bruised quads/dead legs? 

    On my run this morning, I slipped on a path that was covered in sea moss. It looked like a puddle, and as soon as I realised it was slippy, I slowed, and that sent my feet ahead of me and I ended up flat on my back, and then carried on sliding into the corner of a wall. I was winded and a little shocked, but the rest of the run was fine - no appreciable change to my gait or anything. I'm feeling unsure of whether to rest it or not - I'm sure I've played football on much worse dead legs, but with a month to go to Brighton mara I don't want to risk anything. But at the same time, I feel I could be a couple of long runs undercooked - I've not gone further than 18 miles so far, and I would have liked to get in another two of that length or longer, now it looks like it could just be one.

    I'm currently in Spain for work. It's very warm here - I had been planning on doing my long run this morning, but even if I'd got up to go out at 6, I would have had to contend with 30°C temperatures at high humidity. I'll push it back into next week when I go up North where it will be cooler. It might be just as well given my accident this morning!

    Otherwise, an eventful week for me - I moved flat, and had various ups and downs with running: an awful 3x3km mara effort session, high HR and perceived effort, followed by a recovery effort run the next day that ended up similar in terms of pace but much easier!


  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    All sounds good, Muss...sort of! Envy the temperatures: just 13 degrees and wet for my run at noon on this summer's day in the north west of England!
    Little more than ticking over, although consistently and progressively: just under 21 k last week and two runs of just over and just under 30 minutes this week, so a reasonable start to the week. Should exceed the 21k this week but want to be below 25!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    It'll do you good, Muss. Benefits will be there when you return to cool temps. 

    Good stuff, Alehouse.  Summer doesn't seem to have appeared in August. 

    I should be in lanzarote this week but my sons new passport never came so staying local. Instead of nominal running and eating and drinking every night, I am now about to run my biggest ever week with 72m on schedule. Though I am eating and drinking a bit more than a normal week so in holiday mode. 

    Big session today of 9 x 4 min at hmp off 2 min float at mp. 8.5m covered in 52 mins going through 10k in 37.55. Also did 18m Monday (was away at weekend so missed my long) with 9m at 8mm then 9m at mp. 

    Easy 10m tomorrow, 5 Saturday and 20 Sunday planned. 
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    So, parkrun this morning as a bit of a benchmark. Started off steadily and gradually picked up the pace. Kms were 5:40, 5:33, 5:30, 5:26, 4:42 approximately for 26:51. I had in mind that I would be happy with anything under 30...
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    Well done on parkrun alehouse. Glad you're back running!

    DT - good session and weekly tally. 

    32km on Thursday - very tough last few Kms but I got through it and psychologically feel much better now I've got a 20 miler done.

    8km yesterday and 18km today to take me to 80km for the week. Next week I'll reduce the volume a bit but try for a little more quality - as it's been very busy recently I've struggled for sessions. 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Decent outcome versus expectation  Alehouse. 

    Some decent miles there, Muss. 

    20m today was pretty comfortable st 7.37mm, despite having best part of a bottle of wine last night. It was pretty humid however which drained me a bit and left me drenched in sweat. 

    72m week being highest ever. Next 4 weeks are pretty meaty with progressively nastier sessions every Tuesday peaking 10 days out with 3 x 5k at hmp. 
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    edited August 29
    I hope all is well, everyone?

    Getting to grips with the new routes from my new flat. Haven't found a satisfying staple 8km loop yet, but have worked out some nice longer ones. 

    My HRM packed it in last week. Slightly disappointed as it's only just over a year old. Tried several different things, including leaving the battery compartment open for a couple of days to dry out, but I think water must have got in and shorted the circuit. I replaced it with the HRM pro - I'd like to have HR data for swims and hopefully the fact that it's designed for that will mean that I won't have the same problem.

    5x1k on Tuesday was hard work, but ended up decent enough for me (3:58, 3:52, 3:51, 3:50, 3:49). Then 8k, 16k, rest, 8k.

    24k today, 10km easy, 6x1k on, 1k off, then easy back home. One of the ons involved a fairly savage hill, with sandy and pebbly footing, so there was some walking in that rep! The following downhill off came in a minute faster! The others came in between 4:45 and 4:30. All in all, very comfortable and a good confidence builder. One more session next week, then into taper!
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited August 31
    Decent 1k reps, Muss with the progression. 

    How many weeks is taper and how does it look? 

    67.5m last week for my second highest week ever. 21m Friday then 10m tempo Sunday at 6.18mm. 

    Today was a meaty session of 6,5,4,3,2,2,3,4,5,6 mins at HMP off 90s at mp. Covered 8.77m and went through 10k in 37.53. 287m for August, highest ever monthly by  32m. 

    Easy 13m tomorrow.  
  • My race is on the 12th, so I guess two weeks of real taper, although last week was 69km, down from 76 and 80 the previous weeks. 

    Yesterday was my final session. 6x1km, 90s jog, starting off at around HM effort and ending up at 10km pace, although I maybe pushed a little harder than those effort levels. Despite being hungover and having to push this run back to the afternoon, it felt absolutely great - 4:15, 4:10, 4:02, 4:08, 3:51, 3:47. That brought me to 299km for the month.

    Had I known, I definitely would have run an extra km cool down, but perhaps it's good I didn't realise!

    For the rest of this week, I'll do 3x40 mins, and one of 60mins. Next week will probably be 3 or 4x 25-30 mins.

    Big month of running there, DT, and impressive session. I've never done a reverse pyramid - I'll give it a go next training block. I suppose it's key to regulate your effort as the intervals get shorter.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Always good to see the progression in the reps, Muss. Shows you have controlled them well.

    Nearly there for you now then, 6 days and counting. How is everything feeling? Hopefully you did get some nutrition practice in on some long runs?

    I think the key on a pyramid like that is regulating the effort on the first two efforts as that's 11 mins covered and if you get them wrong you are in all sorts of bother.

    Big session Friday with 6m easy then 2 x 6m at mp off 1m easy, which came out at 1.26.25. Ended with a 1m cd. 5 x 20 miler plus done now and a good handful of 18-19m runs in. One more big one to come this sunday. That was 63m last week and 66m in for this week. Kicked things off with spin first thing.

    Annoyingly, having worked from home since last March we are going back to the office 3 days a week from next week, which is my  peak training week before taper. Could have really done with squeezing 1 more week out of it all. Still, I can't moan, I've been very lucky to get 2 x marathon cycles in like this.

    Got a sports massage in  tomorrow evening, not had one in months.

    Alehouse, all OK?

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Yes, not long now, Muss! Cotton wool time!

    And all seems good for you, DT! Not too long for you, either!

    I guess there has been a gradual improvement here, albeit slow, as is every run. 9k this morning for the longest for 10 weeks or so. 

    Wonder how AD is going on. 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Good to see you all running well.

    I'm building for my second marathon, I've averaged more mileage than before my first in 2019 and off the back of a reasonable tri season. Two more 20 milers and then taper for Manchester
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Hi jgav, good to hear from you. What sort of shape you in these days?

    Good that you are progressing, Alehouse. Yes, London will be upon us very soon. I almost feel it's a race against time with case numbers probably about to go through the roof with schools and unis returning and many more now getting back into workplaces. Just hope no one loses their nerve.

    Should find out this week a bit more detail on the start arrangements re waves and times and pens etc. Hoping i'm in the fast GFA again a sit's a much easier environment than the general areas.

  • I'm feeling a bit terrified, to be honest! I'm hoping that the warmer weather doesn't last till Sunday, as I definitely struggle with longer distances. Every time I check the forecast, the temperature is revised down, and the wind speed is lowered, so hopefully it stays that way.

    In the end I got quite a bit of practise with gels. My plan is to take one at 10km, then every 5km till 35km. 

    How long till Manchester, jgav? 

    At the moment I'm planning to be at London to support a couple of people. Let me know if you need someone to hold on to any stuff or need a drinks bottle etc.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Muss, I recall how I felt before my first London. Terrified just about covers it. Yes weather looks to be landing quite nicely. Perfect weather here Sunday morning for my 22. 

    If you ignore anything else I ever say, take this on board. Pacing is absolute king. It's meant to feel too easy in the first half. A few miles 10s per Mile too fast in the first half (commonly I find 6-10m) will get you after 20. Enjoy the first 16m like a Sunday long run (the magic of a race will allow you to run at mara pace and feel like that) . Don't force the pace in first few miles to where you want it, let it just gently progress. My first mile in Dorney was about 30s slower than my last mile. The feeling and energy you get from cutting through the pack in the last 6 if you get it right is obscene and you walk away feeling triumphant as opposed crawling the last 6m and walking away destroyed. 

    Whats the final plan re pace and target time?

    Thanks for the offer re London but I've a plan in my head and clothes etc set aside to bin so subject to what they release I feel I'm OK. 

    10k yesterday alternating between hmp and mp. 28c at lunchtime, came out 38.30. 12m mlr today also at 28c. Tomorrow is 5m recovery and temps down quite a bit but we are out tonight celebrating the uefa £2500 refund I got us following  the euro final and my complaint  so it might not feel any easier! 
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Well, DT, UEFA have at last got something right!

    Muss: what DT wrote. Plus think positive thoughts, banish negative ideas and visualise your success. 

    Good to see you JGav!

    Continuing to plod here, consistently... and gradually making progress I believe. Has been rather warm the last few days. Obviously will change when I get to the test at Old Trafford.
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited September 8
    Alehouse, I have to get some personal gain out of my professional skills. Couldn't believe how they just rolled over. No quibble or attempt to reduce.

    Ha, yes, I'm sure the cricket will be disrupted. 
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