The Middle Ground

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  • 163k for January, or 101 miles. Reasonably pleased.
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Decent month Alehouse - leaves you very much on track for your mileage goal. 

    DT - hope you get back into the swing soon. I'm sure the tissue work will have done you a lot of good. Despite regular stretching and rolling, I have pretty sore knots all over my calves, quads, glutes, groin but especially my hammies. If you're anything like me, there's a good chance you get out of this injured spell with muscles in better shape! 

    I couldn't give blood yesterday due to low iron. For men, Hb count needs to be 135g/l to donate, and mine was 132. No need for great concern apparently, the nurse thought it was probably a combination of tiredness and that I probably shouldn't have tried to donate following my efforts at parkrun, and definitely should have left out recovery jog on the donation day.

    I was surprised though - I eat a lot of pulses and beans, leafy greens, a broad range of other fruits and veg and supplement with a multivit + iron. Anyway, can't say I'm not partly relieved to do without this minor training obstacle (sorry for double/triple negative?!) - I'll give it another go in the summer when I've got Hackney Half out the way and can take more of a down period. 
  • Muss, if I understand correctly sometimes the iron deficiency issue is not just down to the amount of iron consumed but the body's capability to absorb it: my understanding is that large doses of vitamin C make a big difference.

    Just over 10k this morning, largely off road, with a fair amount of battering from the wind...but not as bad as I had anticipated. 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Yes, that is definitely the advice. I think in my case, it's more likely to be B12 as I eat a largely plant based diet. How were you effected by the big storm last week? 

    DT, how's the hammy?

    3x2k threshold for me yesterday, 8:03, 8:01, 7:58. I thought I'd overcooked the first one, but I got through it ok. The perceived effort was more like 10k feel than HM, but I think I just about kept it in the right zone.

    The loop I was doing these on seemed to have some GPS issue - one side of the loop would tell me I was running 4:20min/k, which would then drop to 3:50 to catch up before averaging out at low 4min. It's also a little too busy, with a narrow gate to negotiate with walkers coming the other way. All things considered, I think I'll have to abandon this location!
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    edited February 2022
    Decent session, Muss! I wouldn't worry too much about where you do these sort of reps. You may be able to find a better location but the present one can suffice: it is all about comparing times over a period of time. It is about effort, also, so when I used to do something similar I had a slight incline on it and it was on gravel. Obviously slower but the advantage was there was nobody about, plus the course was tougher than you might encounter in a race, so no bad thing!

    Re the storm, we were largely ok. A couple of trees down and obviously fairly windy, but not as bad as anticipated. 

    45 minutes yesterday which was a bit of a plod; another 29+ minutes in the bank today but run shortened slightly as caught in sleet toward the end. Just realised that today's run was day 200 of the present streak! You would have thought that I would be feeling fitter!

    DT?
    AD?
    JGav?
    Or anyone else!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2022
    Muss, my view with reps like that is if I'm not thinking after the first one that I've over cooked then I've probably undercooked it. 

    Re loops, I used to do all my sessions on race course perimeter on my lunch break from work. Then lockdown and wfh meant I had to find new places. As Alehouse states, the loop I've found is much more like something I'd encounter in a race with no significant climbs or drops but some undulations so I feel it better preps me for a race. It is all about comparing like for like data. 

    Nice work, Alehouse. I had noted a streak building. 

    So I've been pushing on having built to 4 x 10 min yesterday off 1 min then first back to back today with 2 x 2m off 2 min. Yesterday felt fantastic, barely anything unusual in hammy. Today it felt a bit tighter. Not uncomfortably so and it's fine again now  however it leaves me wary of how fast I progress from here. 

    I was due to run a half Sunday in Essex. I've just seen the weather for the location for race morning with 40 plus mph winds forecast. Feel quite a bit better about things now. I shall go out for a few beers for rugby tomorrow afternoon, a luxury I don't usually have as by this stage I'd normally be looking at a 20 miler tomorrow. 
  • I don't mind either dodgy surface or inclines within reason (my summer workout locations have both) - my main concerns are being able to avoid other people (or at least see them coming a long way off) and cars. 

    Good work alehouse - I hadn't realised your streak was that long!

    Good news DT. Had you planned to run 20 miles and then race a half the following day?! Enjoy the rugby.


  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Muss, my main issue with race course always was people who seem to think it was OK for me to have to run with their dog chasing my ankles and jumping at me. If you've no call back or control over your dog then use a long lead! 

    No, I meant that usually at this stage I always have big runs on a Sunday which mean I tend to watch six nations sober. I'm making the most this year of not. I'm off to Cardiff next Saturday for the game and I'll be in lanzarote for round 3. Hopefully by rounds 4 and 5 I'll have to stay sober. 
  • Yes, I have had issues with dogs - mainly professional dog walkers who are trying to walk too many at once. Most boroughs in London limit numbers of dogs in parks to between 4 and 6 per person, but plenty of dog walkers seem to join each other to do walks, so suddenly you've got 4 people and over 20 dogs.

    24km yesterday turned out more pleasant than expected. The forecast rain never appeared (there were even bits of sun), and the wind although strong wasn't as sapping as I feared. Good to get a windy long run in, conditions for Eastbourne half could easily be similar or worse.
  • The banks of the river Mersey have broken near to Didsbury Golf Club on Ford Lane
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Above is the river at the end of my road, in flood yesterday. The river is to the left of the railings and the road to the golf course is on the right; you probably won't believe me when I say that I ran along the road today with barely a puddle in sight! The river must have gone down by at least six feet since yesterday evening! 62 minutes with my M76 neighbour was enough today. 

    As you can see the river and the green Mersey Valley is nearby so dogs are the bane of my life, Muss, and have had many a run in with dog owners and dog walkers who seem to think that 4 to 6 dogs actually mean 4 plus 6. 

    And oh to be able to run 24k!

    Hope that you are still progressing, DT!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • I recall you had issues with flooding last year too - is this an annual problem? I hope it hasn't been any more than an inconvenience this time around.
  • The flooding can be an issue at any time of the year, Muss! The water table seems to have shifted and some of the routes that I used to run regularly I now only run rarely. Lots of work has been promised, including by the prime minister himself on a visit last year...

    Streaking: I ran every day in the 1990s. Not I will run every day for the next decade plus!

    Re Eastbourne, I would be planning to train well for the rest of this month, and then very easy in the week up to it. What are your thoughts?
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    edited February 2022
    Well fingers crossed something gets done soon! I have done country long runs before where I've been afraid of getting almost all the way around a loop before finding an obstacle I can't get around... 

    I'll do one more 24km on 13th (or slightly shorter if I choose a very hilly route), and about 22km the following week (but will make it more progressive). 10 days out I'll do some kind of longer tempo (either 2x5k at HM or 10k but take a slight edge of the pace). Weekly distance will stay at around 65-70km which is where I've been for the last few weeks. Next week's session will either be more threshold stuff or a mixed steady/threshold kind of effort. After that I'll really wind it down. Does that sound like a good plan?
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Every single day in the 90s? That's quite a phemoninal commitment when you factor in illness, injury and just life and its obstacles! 

    Spin last night then 6m continuous this morning with 4 x 30s strides for my longest run and first burst of speed. 

    Best ive felt so far, some minor stiffness early on which eased off. 

    I managed 28m last week which surprised me so hoping to push that a bit further this week. 

    I've also made the difficult decision to enter a different target marathon, being the Milton Keynes mara, 4 weeks after Manchester. It basically puts me back to the start of January timewise when I got injured. As Manchester is paid for I may well still use it as a peak mixed pace long run. Perhaps 8m easy then 3 x 5m at mp off 1m then 1.26m cd for example. Will just see closer to time. 
  • Yes Alehouse, I hadn't fully appreciated the enormity of that achievement until I was out running this morning and found myself thinking about it. 

    Sounds good DT. You seemed to recover well from your last couple of all out marathons, so if you do a sub maximal effort it should be even quicker.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    The main risk is losing control of the session and getting caught up in a much harder effort, though I'vedone 20 milers 4 weeks out that have ended up being pretty close to mara pace, i find out subsequently so 26m at 30-50s per mile slower than mp should be fine. Though that would bag me a gfa andthe sharper end of that would be pushing sub 3 assuming I get back to full shape. 
  • Yes, I can imagine you've got to be prepared to pass people on the "ons" and let them go on the "offs". I would imagine finding the last mile tricky to rein it in as well - perhaps you're better doing more easy miles at the beginning and forgoing the cool down as you may as well soak in the atmosphere. But you're probably a much more patient and disciplined person than I am!
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    You're probably right, Muss, I'd want to finish gloriously as opposed trudging across the line. 
  • Another 6km continuous tempo type thing this morning. The idea was to alternate between 4:20 and 4:10 per km. It came out 4:16, 4:09, 4:11, 4:03, 4:12, 3:52... So clearly not the best pace management! Though I didn't hit 178bpm (which is where my watch estimates threshold to be) until the end of that last km, so not completely out of control. Kms 3 and 5 felt pretty comfortable so I'm really starting to be confident that I could hold 4:10/km for 21.1km. That works out at 1:27:55 which would do me very nicely.
  • That was another decent session, Muss!

    Hope the rugby was good, DT! I watched and felt a draw would have been the right outcome and that the yellow card was harsh and changed the game. 

    41k this week, the highest since mid October. 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Good going, Alehouse. 

    Yes was a decent day out thanks. The yellow card came at a very good time as well, allowed wales to manage out the last 10, but otherwise a very even encounter and which Scotland will feel hard done by. 

    Muss, encouraging and decent session. 

    I've done an 8m and a 7.5m run this week so pushed it out to 12m this morning. Best I've felt so far so should be able to really kick on from here. That's 38m for the week. 

    HR versus pace about 5bpm off where I was pre injury but hoping that'll be back by end of February. 

    Similar next week but introducing sessions. 
  • Hope the comeback is still going strong DT.

    Alehouse, you seem to be going well. Any plans for a parkrun or LFoM turnout?

    23km on Sunday in Somerset, in really foul weather. I hadn't really clocked that by opting for the flattest route that I would be getting minimal shelter from wind and rain. There was one 3.5km stretch on an absolutely dead straight, flat road where I was getting absolutely battered. Luckily, a strong headwind became a tailwind or crosswind for much of the second half, and I progressed to pretty much half marathon pace for a couple of km and felt good. I spent the rest of the day at work standing, so legs were very achy by the end of the day!

    Easy running until today, and back home. Did 1-2-1-2-1km alternating between 5km effort and threshold. 3:45, 8:06, 3:45, 8:04, 3:42. Felt pretty good despite the wind, didn't feel hands to knees until the very last 200m into a headwind. 

    I'm starting for feel more relaxed about a windy day out in Eastbourne - my bigger fear is that I won't be able to keep my effort the right side of threshold as it seems too easy to just slip into something a little too fast.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    I've been getting on with it. Attempted in earnest my first session yesterday. Had no idea what yo expect. Was 4 x 1m off 45s walk which actually sounded hard with such a recovery. 

    First rep 5.57 which left me thinking this is either encouraging or I'm going to be on my arse after 1 more. Next rep 5.52 then 5.54 then final rep was 6.00 but was 80% straight into a 23mph headwind. 

    Very pleasantly surprised by it and enthuses me to crack on. I'm off to lanzarote on Sunday for a week but agreed with my wife when we booked it that I'd train more than I usually might on holiday in view of missing January. Though with entering mk mara the pressure is off to some extent as I've clawed a month back. 

    I do like those in and out sessions, Muss. Hmp/mp km repeats is a good peaking session over 12k. There's a very fine line between hmp and threshold, however, once you are 5m in you should be pushing threshold. 

    6m recovery over lunch. 
  • Good news DT, enjoy Lanzarote. 

    I should have mentioned I did take 90s jog after the 1km reps and 3mins jog after the 2km reps today! Without the recovery jogs that session is quite a different beast!

    I may do 10km rather than 12km as my final session next week. I'll try to make the emphasis on keeping it controlled rather than running hard. If I come out of it feeling I should have run faster I'll consider that a result - no point overcooking things 10 days out.
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    edited February 2022
    Cotton wool time, having finished my last session! 10km continuous tempo alternating 1ks between half marathon effort and something a little easier. 4:24, 4:24, 4:21, 4:22, 4:15 for the steadier sections, 4:17, 4:13, 4:10, 4:06, 3:58 for the half marathon effort Kms, so a pleasing progression despite it being pretty windy.

    I was hoping for advice on what to run for a taper length long run? Maybe 16km? And what faster running, if any would you guys do from this point?
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    edited February 2022
    I'm not sure what to advise, Muss! I personally would keep most of my runs to 30-40 minutes easy with the odd 60 minutes, again easy, plus a couple of days where I would do some strides. I wouldn't do anything that I wasn't used to though!

    The weather has been foul here the last few days, and the wind was so strong yesterday morning at 6 a.m. that one of my windows blew in. It was probably slightly ill-fitting but rather a shock. Nothing seems damaged, touch wood, apart from some paintwork that will need attention. Hopefully someone is coming to refit the window in the next day or two. 

    Running has been cut back due to the weather although I would probably have cut it back a little anyway as I have averaged over 40k for the last five or six weeks. And I am struggling for routes to run: everywhere that I normally run is flooded, not least the sports field at the end of my road. Yesterday the water was up to the rugby post cross bar! I am only 100 metres away but fortunately there is a steep rise between the flood plain and the houses.


    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    edited February 2022
    Fingers crossed the flooding subsides quickly. Bad luck with the window, and hope insurance covers it. We've had little bits of damage too: a concrete gatepost at the bottom of our drive was blown over (it appears it wasn't cemented in place, but was incredibly heavy so amazing it blew over), and we have some conservatory roofing panels over the extension to our kitchen which now appear to move! Fortunately no water seems to come in, but we'll definitely be looking to upgrade that over the summer...

    Ok that all sounds pretty sensible. Better to undertrain than overtrain at this stage!

    I've also entered the Big Half in September which I'm looking forward to!
  • Meant to say, post MRI scan on my spine saw the consultant on Friday. He couldn't see anything of concern, aging apart, so has now organised both an MRI and MRA scan of the head, and had referred me to a neurologist to interpret the results. Happens to be a guy I know quite well as he runs for my club!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Having said that I would have a cut back week things changed! Took a couple of easy days and then decided that I would go to Hyde Park today for the LFoM...until I tried to book a train ticket. No standard tickets available on the three possible trains but I could buy a first class at £150+...one way. So no thank you, so no LFoM!
    Instead have run 45, 50, 60 minutes steady the last few days, largely off road. Trying to get closer to 100 miles for the month.
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
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