The Middle Ground

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  • Hope you're recovering well Dan. I imagine you'll get a good training benefit from that ride. 

    Good parkrun there DT, that must have been fun. I've had a similar feeling when I've turned up late to parkrun. 

    Hope all is well Alehouse

    I had a cold last week, so my recovery week didn't feel quite as restorative as it might have done. Something seemed to irritate my left groin muscles, just above the knee - although it wasn't painful to bear weight or move, it was very tender to touch. A bit of foam rolling and stretching seems to have eased it, but it's still pretty tight.

    16km this morning took me to my best ever month, 317km. 

  • Great month, Muss! Hope you get something similar in February!

    Reasonably pleased with mine: 31 days run, 178.41k run (110.86 miles). No races or parkruns. 
    Had hoped for 200 k but the ice got in the way for a few days. No worries!

    Also I started doing a few hill sprints each week; not entirely sure that it is a wise move as one calf felt a little strained after last week's  efforts. 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Good of the club to get the food in, Dr Dan. I bet that really does persuade those who are 50/50 to get along. 

    Great month, Muss, that much be just shy of 200m? I guess it's a double edged sword in that at least you weren't having to balance normal training with illness.

    Good work, Alehouse. Why hill sprints over just some standard strides, out of interest?

    Just completed my month with a session. 265m which is my 2nd highest month. One race, one pb. Another solid week this week then a cut back week for weekend away. 

    Wokingham half end of Feb is the next interim target on the path to Boston. 
  • A good month, DT!

    Re the hill sprints, something I have tried to include since I was involved in some research in the 70s! Probably out of date now: basically the research said 150-200 metres reps on a gentle hill is more effective training than on the flat. Also am trying to activate my glutes more which does seem to be the case on the hill sprints. Will most likely not do them this week though so as not to stress the calf. 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Yes Dan, I forgot to mention about the meal - the subs must be a lot higher than running club membership to make it possible to get pub lunches for everyone!

    Great training as always DT. What's the target for Wokingham? I imagine you will PB whether you go absolutely all in or hold a bit back. Do you have any training strategies for the hills in Boston? From what I've heard the downhills are just as much of a difficulty as the ups!

    Alehouse - I actually have a perfect incline about 100m from my flat... About 15m elevation over about 200m, or about 5%. And yet I always do them on the flat... Perhaps I need to change that!

    Today was 5x1 mile at threshold off 2 mins easy. It came out 6:48, 6:38, 6:38, 6:38, 6:32, there was a fair amount of wind about (seemingly a headwind around all three sides of a triangle), so happy with that. HR was very steady around 171 for all reps. I'm beginning to think my threshold HR is a little lower than I thought (176-8), but perhaps the reps were just not quite long enough to get up to that effort. Either that I've got very soft!

    In case anyone's interested - check out a video on youtube made by Stephen Scullion on threshold training - well worth a watch. A lot of the content he's been putting out is really great information.
  • DrDanDrDan ✭✭✭
    Some cracking January training there folks! Great mileage and consistency. Not there yet myself with the running but some green shoors at least.

    I guess the cycling club have no real expenses, so used the subs funds to encourage a social ride to benefit the regulars. Seemed to work and I'll be back for more pie next year. 😆

    Took Monday off after that ride and 21 days straight. Then mixed in bike commuting with a 4mi run off the bike Tues and a club swim Weds. Thurs I ran to work via a longer 8 mi route (got the bus home). Picked up a huge blister (time for new trainers) but otherwise good. Just commuting today. Sunday is a 10K race but have arranged a 4 mile warm-up with club mate and will then do the 6.2 slowly... need the points for club league if I want to get promoted.


  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2023
    Muss, yes I've been following the chat on Boston fb groups. Most course vets were pretty unanimous when asked that it's the downhills that damage you not the uphill and that people error in their training by focusing on uphill. 

    I am focusing my long and mlrs on undulating yo hilly routes and the one I use for anything over 15 miles has quite a considerable downhill profile last 5m. I'm also doing uphill strides. 

    I hate those days where the wind is just a mystery, catching you in every direction. Decent consistent reps. I'd say if anything the recovery was too long as opposed reps not being long enough. Knock that down to 1 min and you'd get there. 

    My half pb is pretty strong, still not sure how I managed it as it was set 20 months ago. But I am fitter now that's for sure and I'd imagine a more stacked field in Wokingham should be better than twisting and turning around Kempston racecourse on my own. 

    Your bike and run club both seem very sociable Dr Dan. Good training with 21 straight days, though I guess the bike work lends itself more to many consecutive days. 

    Decent week so far with a big session yoday of 4 x 3k at 5.50s off 1k at 6.50s. 10m in the nose at 6.05mm. 14m in total. On 47 for week and first 20 on Sunday. We'll needed rest day tomorrow.  
  • parkrun yesterday. 24:51 which sounds slow but does get me over 70% age grading. An advantage of being older. And on a course that is worth 45-60 seconds at my speed compared to the local flatter courses. 
    Just over 47k for the week after today's 40 minutes plus stretches in the fitness suite. 

    I have always said that the ability to run downhill is at least as important as going up, DT, so well done for including some in your longer runs. 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Alehouse, yes, I think a 70% wava is a good marker and it's a good way of viewing things as we age. 

    I was surprised to learn that many struggle with downhill in my early running years. I'd always found it quite straightforward. 

    20m today with some 1500 ft of elevation gain. Pretty comfortable if I'm honest and legs don't really feel it tonight.

    I'm in Edinburgh next weekend and really hoping to make it to the pretty new and very popular Holyrood parkrun which takes you up to the base of Arthur's seat in mile 1 with about 250 ft of gain, across it mile 2,then wildly downhill mile 3. I'm on a lads weekend for rugby so it's 50/50, though the 9.30 start helps! 
  • DrDanDrDan ✭✭✭
    Alehouse - nice parkrun. I see 70% as my C target these days rather than times.

    Clearly in great shape DT - good luck with the getting up for that parkrun.

    Sunday's "4ish plus 10k race at easy pace" with clubmate turned into a progressive... it wasn't planned but as the 55-60 min runners slowed we naturally got faster, so we admitted defeat with 5k to go and had some fun going through the gears. All very controlled but felt it afterwards. I'll just run 8 miles Thurs and 13.1 hilly Sun (Liversedge HM) this week. Moving my daughter into her new house today, so my back may have a different plan.


  • Well done on the 70% wava alehouse - more to come on an easier course! Any plans for a race soon?

    I'm hoping to achieve the 70% wava pretty soon: I'm 3 seconds off over 5k and 46 seconds off over 10k. HM might be more of a stretch - more like 6 mins of my PB, and more than a minute faster than my A goal.

    And good work Dan, good progress to be getting up to 13.1 again. It's hard to keep that competitive spirit out of race/parkrun efforts! 

    DT - that's some impressive climbing there, often more than I achieve in a week! 

    I've run on that course a few times before (though not for parkrun) - it's a great route. I don't remember the climbing being all that tough, but of course it's all different at 5k effort. I thought all parkruns had to start at 9 now to avoid people "doubling"? I'm not exactly sure why that would be a problem though...
  • Muss, all Scottish parkruns start at 9:30. In winter in the most northern areas it would barely be light at 9! Plus the course has to be set up etc. 
    Re races, nothing planned as yet. Probably a LFoM at some stage plus some summer 5k series. 
    That's a big step up to a half, Dan! And not on the easiest of courses from what I remember of the area!

    I remembered earlier today that two years ago I could not walk without a stick for around two months following general anaesthetic and then the first Covid jab:  puts everything into perspective and I am just glad to be able to run, although we are never entirely satisfied!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DrDanDrDan ✭✭✭
    After being injured and unable to run properly for long periods in yhe lasg fes years, I can relate to the "just glad to be able to run".

    A hilly 13.1 is a step up. It's the final club champs race - I need one more, so turning up will get me 1points. I've done a couple of 10 milers and was able to put in a comfortable 23 min 5k at the end of the last one, so hoping a slow jog will be ok.
  • Plenty of people don't run more than 10 miles before doing their first half, so you'll be absolutely fine.

    Alehouse - makes sense, but East/West can make just as much difference.

    Did 1k, 2k, 1k, 2k, 1k this morning. 1ks at 10k effort with 90s jog, 2ks at threshold with 3 mins steady after. 3:56, 8:05, 3:55, 8:05, 3:55, and covered about 650m on the 3 mins steady, 4:40min/k pace. Highest HR for the session was 173, so pretty under control, but I also would have struggled to go any faster. Breathing felt good, but I was definitely tying up a bit at the end of each shorter rep. Maybe all to be expected for a fasted run at 6:30am.
  • DrDanDrDan ✭✭✭
    edited February 2023
    Another great session Mus! Being fasted and doing intensity dont mix well.

    Well Liversedge HM is definitely hilly! However  the advantage of running it "easy" was the hills were tolerable and it was nice to ease past huffing and puffing runners struggling up at their threshold. I was still expecting the legs to lock up after 10 mi but was feeling good so, with 1:34:xx on the clock at 10 mi, I challenged myself to come in under 2h. Overtook a lot of folk in the process and made it with 7s to spare. Great session and pleased with my basic endurance fitness at this stage.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2023
    Muss, good session that. No idea how you can do it at 6.30am though! 

    I ran my first half with 10m as my longest run prior. 

    Re parkrun in Scotland, I read a blog recently by the guy who set the first Scottish one up and as Alehouse says, it was decided on due to the later sun rise in Scotland. As for double Park runs on things like new years day, my mate who is a parkrun junkie was explaining to me that the whole idea led to some pretty anti social behaviour.  Lots of complaints of runners dumping cars any old place in their desire to make run 2 for example. 

    Dr Dan, well done on the half. I do like running events at sub race pace and cutting through tired runners feeling like you're the man in the closing miles. 

    Alehouse, was that period following your fall and back injury? Always good to look backwards to appreciate where we are now. 

    Mustered together a decent week lady week despite going away Thursday night. Managed 52m and all that was really missed was a long run on Sunday. Stayed in Lancaster Thursday night in a Premier Inn that was right by river and the nice tarmac cycle and footpath. Had a few beers Thursday but we were all saving ourselves for Edinburgh so was up and out for 9m progressive at 8am ending with a 5.58m.

    Friday was a very messy day and something I'm not overly used too these days. I staggered home around 2am and surprisingly found myself awake at 7.40 so jogged the 2.5m to parkrun. First mile was not what I needed in my hungover state and huffed and puffed my way to an opening mile of 7.08 wondering why the hell I was there.  Course flattened out then and settled into a steady effort with a 6.02. Mile 3 was downhill so opened up legs at same time as reducing effort and posted a 5.32 then cruised the flat last 200m or so coming in at 19.32. 

    I was slightly worried in mile 1 that my perfect sub 20 parkrun record may be on the ropes. It lives on though. On the wava topic that got me 73.72% which seems generous for that time, must just be a reflection of my age. I do think the wava guides do under expect from guys in their 40s. Despite finishing 16th I was first in AC. My last parkrun I finished 3rd and only managed 2nd in AC. Just over 500 runners which I think is an event record. 

    2.5m jog back to apartment and soon after the adrenaline and booze wore off and I had to go back to bed. 

    Rest day yesterday as I travelled then back to it with 6m easy today. 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Decent session yesterday of 3 x 4k at 5.40s (meant to be 5.50s) off 1k at 6.40s. Went off like a lunatic and first 4k block was only 2s per mile off 5k pb pace. Was worried I'd set myself up for a nightmare but effort didn't feel wild. Other blocks were all a bit slower but in range, ended up 9.3m at 5.57mm average pace.

    12m mlr at lunchtime. 
  • DrDanDrDan ✭✭✭
    edited February 2023
    Sounds like you're super fit DT!

    Took me a while to recover from Liversedge HM so back-loaded the week with a tough 63 min turbo Sat and a 15 mile LSR today (longest run since Oct '18). Now destroyed again. 😳 😆



  • Good session and parkrun DT! 

    Good going to be up to 15 miles again DrDan, although probably not the most orthodox way to structure a week of training!

    I was away in Somerset for work for a lot of last week, it was a bit of a mixed bag.

    Decent start to the week with 5k recovery feeling less ploddy and less fatigued after the long run. 
    Then 16km steady on Tuesday, getting up to a good effort by the end without getting carried away. 
    Wednesday was 10km at recovery effort until I found myself the wrong side of a river and the crossing had collapsed. Ended up being more like 12.5km and with a couple of faster Kms to finish, so I wasn't late for work! That day ended up being incredibly stressful, and I slept terribly as a result, so pushed back my session to Friday and rested Thursday.

    Woke up on Friday with the legs feeling fresh, but pretty fatigued mentally. Did a slightly shorter warm up and cool down and wanted to do 6x1k. A stiff wind and overcooking the first rep made for a terrible session, every rep after rep 2 threatened GI issues that thankfully never appeared, but eventually I decided to pull the plug after 5 reps (3:37, 3:45, 4:03, 3:41, 3:54).

    10k recovery on Saturday, and a great 25km run on Sunday with mild temperatures and great weather. From halfway onwards on the long run I was running 4:45min Kms or faster, and four of the last 4 were around 4:30, with HR comfortably around high 150s/low 160s.

    Will take a lower distance week, possibly with a parkrun smash depending on how I feel and the weather! Aerobically I feel in PB shape, but I'm not sure my legs have the speed endurance to get the best out of a 5k attempt at the moment. But with a bit more than a month to go to race day, it would be good to get an indication of fitness, and possibly tweak some training paces.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    That's some decent stepping up there, Dr Dan! 

    I hate it when GI issues crop up on a session! Looks like you made a decent fist of the session in any event. 

    I'd give parkrun a smash, not a great deal to lose given the convenience and fact its free and you'll get a decent set of data.

    Talking if which, following an 8 x 3 mins at 5kp session Friday I was pretty fresh Saturday so popped to parkrun with no real plan beyond not going eye balls out. Went off a bit faster than I have been when going along for a social run with Mike 1 coming in at 5.55 and feeling comfortable then mile 2 popped up at 5.42 so decided I just as well run sub 18. Mile 3 also at 5 42 then a nice sprint finish hot me in for 17.51. 

    23s outside my pb but I can take a lot from it given I was completely untapered, didn't warm up and didn't go there with a plan and still ran my 3rd fastest parkrun without rinsing myself.

    Hilly 20m yesterday brought 70 for the week.

    Taper now towards Wokingham Sunday. 
  • All going well! Keep it up!

    I had planned on making a parkrun appearance last Saturday with the aim of seeing where I was at whilst running at 90% effort, or thereabouts. In the event it was too windy and cool so I ran my longest run since October, albeit only 83 minutes. Also my highest week since August 2020: 51.75k won't sound much to you guys but you may well find that when you get to my age it is! Would like to stick around the 50k a week sort of mark, subject to niggles and work!


    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Great parkrun again DT. Would you say that was 10k sort of effort? Good sharpener ahead of Wokingham.

    Good volume alehouse. I know my dad doesn't get close to that volume, though he is more bike focused, and a bit older.

    Not much to report here - taking it easy this week. Did some new S&C exercises yesterday and I'm feeling quite sore today! Amazing how a new exercise can do that to you, even if you're not targetting different muscles or ramping up the difficulty or volume too much. 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Muss, I'd say miles 2 and 3 were 10k effort. 

    Decent work, Alehouse. You're 2.5 years older than August 2020 as well.

    I guess s and c is like running. I can do a 10m tempo at 6.10mm and say 160 bpm or do say 5 x 2m off a 2 min standing and average 6.10 but it'll feel quite different. 

    4 x 1m taper session Tuesday off 2 min jog, 5.50mm seemed not overly testing. 10m Wednesday and spin today. Little shake out tomorrow and that's all. 
  • DrDanDrDan ✭✭✭
    edited February 2023
    Good hard 5K and long run combo DT - that was my staple weekend when I was running my best.

    Im really in need of some S&C Muss...

    Alehouse - great week!!

    All quiet here with no running so far. The monthly 5K race series restarted Wednesday but I bailed out as Sunday's 15 mi had left me battered and the previous 2 Sunday have been hard too. I did a club speed session in the pool as penance. Otherwise just daily bike commuting. Plan is to regroup and construct some more balanced training weeks.

    Still no alcohol in 2023 and I'm down 12 lb on Jan 1st. Would like to be another stone lighter,  as in 2016/17, but maybe those days have gone.
  • Dulwich Parkrun this morning, lots of races tomorrow meant a relatively low quality field so I finished in 26th which is probably a best placing there. 18:36 this morning, a PB of 3 seconds! In a way I'm annoyed not to PB by more (if I'd looked at time I feel would have been able to manage 18:30 for sure), but all things considered I've got to be quite pleased with that off the back of no specific 5k training, and maybe at 90% effort, and also the first hard effort at 5k for a while. I normally find I need a couple of rust busters to get up to proper 5k effort. Also good to leave some low hanging fruit for the summer!

    A JM11-14 (who looked closer to 11 than 14) ran 19:07, but was still just behind me at 3k, so was running very well. Also a VF45 did 18:53.

    Looking ahead to the next couple of weeks, lots of travel and a tricky work schedule mean that I may struggle to fit in long runs. Since I'm pretty happy with how long runs have gone so far, I may focus more on getting a variety of quality sessions in: longer tempo/threshold sessions and shorter intervals have been a bit lacking so far.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Good parkrunning, Muss! I always think that also re 5k being something you need to run maybe 3 over 5 or 6 weeks to really get the best out of yourself. 

    That'll be a good substitute if you can make the long ones work. 

    Solid abstinence and weight loss, Dr Dan. The right thing to do there as you definitely don't want to undo the great work by getting injured. 

    Wokingham this morning. Felt good and fit in build up, weight lowest I've raced and weather decent. Went out with intent and stuck to the task with 76.14 for a 2.02min pb. 5.46mm average, which was pretty much 5k pb pace in November  2021. Field was stacked, I came a mere 29th in the v40 AG. 

    7 weeks to squeeze some more out for Boston. 
  • Terrific time DT! According to the tinman calculator that converts to a 2:38 mara time! I know the calculators can churn out ambitious sounding numbers, but surely a champs start at London must be something you're thinking about. 

    Quick trip to Madrid yesterday. Early flights both yesterday and today, and a tight work schedule meant there was literally no opportunity to run - a shame as there are some nice parks.
  • Nicely done, DT! And I still think more to come! 

    Nice parkrun, Muss, with more to come there also. Shame about Madrid being so brief!

    Good work with the weight loss, DrD!

    Watched the national xc on Saturday with a reasonable amount of jogging around, then yesterday ran over 90 minutes, the longest for around five years! 
    Just over half an hour today which brought me to 194.75k for February, so you can work out tomorrow's run!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Well done on the long run alehouse! I was trying to get to 300km this month - which I would have got to if I'd managed to fit a run in on Sunday and/or yesterday.

    As it is, 16km this morning took me to 285, which I'm still pretty happy with, especially seeing as it's a short month! This morning's run was a 5 mile tempo.

    The plan for the session was to alternate miles between something slower than HMP, and HMP or just a bit faster, but the pace display on my watch was a bit glitchy, and I ran the first couple of miles a bit too fast. So instead of running 7:00-7:10 for mile 1, I ran 6:56, and instead of 6:40-6:50 for mile 2, I ran 6:30. It was all feeling pretty good, but I decided to keep the remaining three miles at 6:45ish rather than risk it turning into too hard a session. HR was steadily around low 170s, so a good sub threshold effort. I've always found 3x3km at HMP a very tough session, so hopefully the fact that I've done 8km continuous means that actual HMP is a good bit quicker.
  • DrDanDrDan ✭✭✭
    Cracking race DT!!  2 min is massive!

    Alehouse - all sounding very positive! Hope you got that 5.25K run in today.

    Sounds like a good HM is on the horizon Mus!

    4 miles with 3 x strides on Saturday, 10 mile LSR Sunday, bike commuting Mon, and today was bike commuting plus a 4 mile run off the bike this morning. The rest during early part of last week has paid off and looking like it might me a more standard training week this time.

    Only 78 miles running for the month but still my best mileage since July. Starting to stretch the longer runs now with 2x8, 2x10, a 13 and 15 miler... plus two hard finishes at end of two "race" events. Also did 7.6K in the pool and 150 miles on the bike. Onwards.
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