The Middle Ground



  • That's awful Hilly - it must be quite a disruption to the training? Conistency is key, after all.

    Quick queston. 10k effort - is it a VO2 max stimulus? I was lookng at some articles last night that said no. Seeing as I'm going to be doing 10k pace work it would be beneficial if it worked VO2 as well.

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭
    Hilly that must be very frustrating for you. Luckily I don’t get ill too often but always seem to struggle to shake it off when I do. I’ve just more or less got past a cold that been lingering for about 6 weeks.
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    Snotty kids - yuck! Its bad enough having to travel on the tube once or twice a week image
  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭

    A cold a month, Hilly?  That's terrible!  I think fruit is a good call, especially some of the less-standard fare.  Kiwi Fruit has huge Vit C, and I can almost get through as many blueberries in a day as PRF gets through grapes.  image   You've cut out your tea and coffee for your iron intake?

    It's Hay Fever season.  I just love getting out into the countryside in the beautiful sunshine in late spring and summer!  Loratidine is working for me so far this season.  Anyone else got this issue with pollen?

  • Hilly I have a teenage daughter who turned vegetarian about 18 months ago. Over the last year she has caught everything going and in the beginning I was getting them all as well. I believe as I was invariably eating the same meals as her  I was missing vital nutrients for no other reason  than convenience of  cooking only one meal. Decided to make sure I ate fish, meat etc like I had and until this virus I've just had have been well pretty much since. I definitely feel that zinc has a big part to play in keeping the immune system strong. I don't take any supplements as I'm not sure of the worth of them. Truly believe that good natural foods provide all we need. Feel for you as I know how frustrating it is. Hope you shift this one soon.
  • And the other thing that makes a difference, Hilly, is loaaads of broccoli.

    As you probably know vitamin C is pretty useless if iron levels are low because the iron is needed to aid absorption. Broccoli provides the iron, fruit provides the vit c... job done! image

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Peas are full iron too.  And as far as your green superfoods go, as well as broccoli, spinach, curly kale and watercress are packed full of goodies - vit C, iron, antioxidants, etc.

    Duckinator - insofar as VO2 max, LT, aerobic endurance, etc all work on a continuum rather than kicking in at certain points, I would've thought 10k pace would certainly provide some stimulus to VO2 max.  When I'm fit, 10k pace isn't too far away from 5k pace, and I'm certainly breathing in a similar pattern, too heavy to consider talking in sentences or drinking from a cup, which suggests there's a lot of oxygen being used!  (Now where's MoraghanNoakes for the scientific answer?)

    Training: sub 6:00/m is feeling easier than tempo pace again (at least on the treadmill) so I'm hoping to start running quicker on the road again in the next few days, and maybe even the track next week, as long as the knee continues to behave.

  • Being a vet sprinter it's always been difficult for me to find a natural 'home' on the RW threads. However I am moved to butt in here and say I'm really enjoying this thread and the various discussions it has generated.

    For what it's worth Hilly, I have a pretty efficient immune system, although I'm not sure whether that's  down to luck or judgement. I hardly ever get colds and if I do I shake them off pretty quickly. I hardly eat any fruit - but I do shovel away alarming quantities of vegetables, every day there's at least three portions from Phil's list for instance - I probably consume an average of 11 a day rather than 5. Half an apple being my only concession to fruit...

    Also because you are a very experienced athlete I'm sure you know how much training your body can tolerate, but it is always worth keeping an eye on just how much you do and how much recovery you get - including sleep. I hate to say this but it does alter as we get older. Not that you are anything but a mere babe!
  • Blimey, glad I don't work around those kids.  Sounds a nightmare...
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    MoraghanNoakes hahahahaha brilliant image

    Sounds like some good running Phil -here's hoping the knee holds out well on the roads

    Nice to see you Sharkie - another sprinter is always welcome! I love your avvie (god I want to have good running form!).

    I'm off to the track tonight to try out my spikes...could be good or a disaster...

  • Thanks all for your useful helpful advice.  Although I probably know all the above and get told my the OH frequently I'm poor at looking after myself at times.  BR is the cook and every day there is plenty of veg and pulses, but he says if I leave anything it's always the vegimage  I'll  make an effort to be good and eat all my fruit and veg!  Had an apple, 3 satsumas and a fruit jelly so far this morningimage

    Ratzer, I've not cut out tea or coffee, although I would say I don't drink a great deal of either.  1 maybe 2 cups of black coffee a day and maybe an earl grey and a camomile before bed.

    Welcome Sharkie.  Sleep is sometimes a bit less than I would like, but then if I go to bed early I can never get to sleep until the time I would normally be in bed and I always wake up the same time each morning.  Although saying that in the holidays after a few lie ins, it doesn't take long to fall into a pattern of more sleep. 

    Phil - good to hear the knee is going good.

    Enjoy the track, Curly.  I'm going to do a sprint session tonight - oh the joyimage  Also, I'm doing the Hull parkrun on Sat as part of a progressive session.  I'll do several miles before it starting at MP, then down to HMP, then the last 5k at tempo pace doing the parkrun.  Sounds fun eh?!

  • Barnsley Runner wrote (see)
    Blimey, glad I don't work around those kids.  Sounds a nightmare...
    You have a shield called a desk...image
  • PhilPub wrote (see)
     When I'm fit, 10k pace isn't too far away from 5k pace, and I'm certainly breathing in a similar pattern, too heavy to consider talking in sentences or drinking from a cup, which suggests there's a lot of oxygen being used!  (Now where's MoraghanNoakes for the scientific answer?)
    I've heard that when you're well aerobically trained, your race paces should be like a clock face - with 5k at quater past and 10k at half past. Might have been Hadd actually.
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Ooo have fun at Hull Hilly - we are in Brussels this Saturday so are missing out image (although Brussels should be lovely)

    Thats interesting Duck - I ran a 5k pb (at the time) during my last 10k race so I do think you can run them very close together in pace terms - I hope so anyway because my 5k times arent where I'd like them to be for a sub 45 at the moment, so I am wishful of a 5k pb during my 10k again image

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭


    Yep Duck, that's from Hadd ... text below.

    Frank Horwill once defined this sort of relationship by saying that if a runner slowed up by 16 secs/mile at any distance (actually, I believe he said 4 secs per 400m lap), that runner could then keep going for twice the distance. [...] For better-trained runners, the relationship is even tighter. [...] Think of it roughly like a clock face: Your one mile PR should be at 12, your 5k PR pace should be at quarter-past (+15 secs), your 10k PR should be at half-past (again, +15 secs), your HM PR should be at quarter-to (again + 15 secs), and your marathon PR should be once again at the top of the hour. (This also fits in with the old rule of thumb that your marathon PR pace should be mile PR pace + 60 secs/mile)


  • Thats pretty much correct, TD!

    If you think in terms of 4 secs/lap or 15 secs/mile differential between paces as you go up the distances then you wont go far wrong, although at the elite end this differential gets squeezed to 10 secs per distance or so.

    My PBs:

    5K 5:14

    10K 5:23

    1/2 Marathon 5:40

    Obviously, there is variation due to different course profiles etc but your PBs do tend to be on similar type course (usually flat).

    So, an average of 13 secs per distance pace differential in the above.

    From those paces, I would be able to estimate fairly accurately that the 3K time would be approx 5:01/mile and 1500m would be at 4:48/mile.

    I never ran a 3K around that time but did do a solitary 1500m in 4:30, which spookily seems to equate to 4:48/mile!

    Hilly - Thats a good use of a parkrun. Its a lot easier than lifting the pace on a solitary run thats for sure!

    Dan - Hehe Thats my old coach you're quoting there! image

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Dont relurk if you have good stuff to add Dr. Dan!!! 

    Drat to you well trained runners half and full are still massively out of line! image

  • TD - I ran my best times off aerobic training, with some marathon specific work.  Although I have to say that my 5k and 10k times were out compared to my marathon time.  10k not quite as bad as 5k, but never really did many 5ks and if I did they were always just as part of training.  Don't think I've ever trained for one and ran it as a race in itself.

    Brussels is lovely, Curly.  We did a half marathon there a few years back.  Are you going to do a race there or is it a holiday?

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    Just a day trip for PRFs birthday image
  • Oh yes, I forgot that I get a WAVA boost next week.... imageimage
  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Curly - Is it your first time in spikes on the track?  I had severely aching calves for a good few days after my first time, although that was an impromptu 3,000m steeplechase race in somebody else's spikes, about an hour after a flat-out 5,000m, so probably not the best idea!  image  If it is, take it easy on the volume, anyway.

    Dr Dan - thanks for explaining the clock thing!  My PBs don't exactly fit a smooth curve, but that's mainly because they were set at different times and some of them are a bit out of date...

    5k: 5:15 (5,000m actually but I've only run one 5k and didn't do it justice)
    10k: 5:22 (that's my current benchmark/best relative performance)
    HM: 5:49
    M: 6:15

    The HM and marathon times are due a revision (esp marathon) but to keep the relationship going with the shorter stuff like 1,500m I think I'd have to (a) do a lot more faster reps and (b) be prepared for some severe masochism.  So I might just stick with the theoretical values for now.  image

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    Will bear that in mind Phil - am planning on a 3 x 1 mile session but with a long warm-up/ cool down in racing flats - I already do the session in flats so I'm hoping it wont be too painful...
  • My paces don't really add up, but as pointed out 5k not properly raced, 10m was injured when I ran it, 20 miles was part of a training week with a short taper and the only distance I ever really tapered for was the marathon.

    5k 6:08
    10k 6:09
    10m 6:26
    HM 6:25
    20 6:42
    M 6:43

  • Those are very similar to mine, Phil.

    And I bet BRs would look spookily similar too, certainly on the 10K PB pace its, 5:22 Philpub, 5:23 PRF,  5:23 BR !

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    parkrunfan wrote (see)

    Dan - Hehe Thats my old coach you're quoting there! image

    Well, that explains how the numbers match so well (4s per lap). image

    Curly45 wrote (see)

    Dont relurk if you have good stuff to add Dr. Dan!!! 

    I promise to de-lurk more often ... though I rarely have any good stuff to add! image

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    parkrunfan wrote (see)

    Those are very similar to mine, Phil.

    And I bet BRs would look spookily similar too, certainly on the 10K PB pace its, 5:22 Philpub, 5:23 PRF,  5:23 BR !

    Are we getting into one second posturing now image

    Dont worry Dan - I'm the same imageimage

    *starts dreaming of race paces starting with a 6.XX al la Hilly*
  • One second posturing lasts for years - we still enjoy a bit of one second posturing down at the Spencer Arms Series each month despite the relevant facts relating to 17 years ago. image

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    prf - In fact the 15s rule would probably work well for me.  Based on 5:22 for 10k, 5:39 HM and 5:52 marathon* is about where I reckon I was when I was in pb shape last Autumn. I went out and ran the Beachy Head marathon (3,500ft ascent) at 7:12 pace instead!  image

    (* I notice McMillan has me down for 5:41 and 5:59 respectively from the 10k time, so the formula on his running calculator obviously has a slightly looser relationship over the distances.)

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    My paces don't match the "curve" ... mainly as I've never raced a 1 mile and I have never run a HM or 10 mile when proeprly fit. And I've never raced a marathon!

    I've been marathon training (13 days to go!) and with the improved mileage and aerobic base, I'm hoping to sort my "pace profile" out this year. I ran a 5K and 10K while mara training and they were both PBs, despite the lack of taper and speedwork ... which just made the profile worse! image

    I really need to race a 10 mile and HM soonish ... they will be BIG PBs!!

    5K - 6:45 min/mile

    10K - 6:50 min/mile

    10 mile - 7:36 min /mile

    HM -  7:47 min/mile 

  • Phil, 

    Its nailing that sub 6:00/mile marathon that sorts the men out from the boys!

    One day, maybe............................... we might as well keep trying! image

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